What data? He hasn't practiced for 15 years and wouldn't have a way to track the outcome of his program. I doubt he knows even a small fraction of those who use his program. He only knows those who sign up for his weekend program.


And how would he know this? Thousands buy his books, but he does not know them.


But your anecdotes are from being on the EN board for 10 years.


Right. Hypothetical. Meaningless.

Again, what is the point, EE? I still don't get it.

Let's take MB out of this for a second. Think of your favorite diet commercial. What do the commercials present? Some star, athlete or other person who has experienced great success with the program.

What do you find in very small print, elsewhere on the screen? "Results not typical."

I personally find such commercials misleading. The impression is that if you follow the plan, you'll look like the person on the screen. The reality is, if you follow the plan, you'll look like you.

It's my impression, and I reserve the right to be wrong, that recovered marriages, especially for BH's is a "results not typical" outcome.

I really do hope I'm wrong. But right now, my impression is otherwise. I really do hope Dr H responds to my e-mails and/or posts here and says, BH's following the plans, confrontation, exposure, plan A and plan B have a combined success rate of 65% or better. I really do.

However, I believe the number is much closer to that 15% figure than it is the 65% and I think that needs to be presented for consideration by those deciding if they would attempt to win back a WW or just seek to kick her off the reservation.

You can disagree, and that's fine. But don't even suggest that I'm wrong or defective, or suspect for wanting to know. It's a legitimate question, and I am not taking too kindly to your attempts to marginalize it.

That is not an answer, though and I don't accept that. I asked you WHY it is relevant. What is the relevance. What difference does it make if the answer is 15% or 85%. So what?

If I tell you will you accept the answer, or continue in your DJ's regarding how inferior you believe my thinking and opinions are on this matter?

Because if you cannot make such a promise, and keep it, it is pointless for me to share why I find it relevant.

So will you respectfully accept my answer, if I give it, and not try to talk me out of it. Or will you continue in your attempts to tell me I should not believe what I do, for the reasons I believe?

If you will not accept that I have well reasoned thoughts on why I believe and think the way I do, sharing them with you is a fruitless exercise.

Melody brings up an excellent point (as usual).

A lot of people buy "Surviving an Affair" and other books and follow the plan using those, or the advice given on the website, without ever contacting Dr. Harley directly.

How would he be able to provide statistics regarding the success of these people who are following his plan as outlined in the books and on the website, but do not actually go through the phone counseling or weekend program?

Are you saying it is your point to paint Marriage Builders as "misleading?" Why not just be honest about what your goal is? Why not be honest about why this is so important to you? Is your goal to discourage others so they have the outcome as you did?

Perhaps you find it excellent, but it's not in the scope of what I ask, so it's a question that only muddies the waters or tries to belittle what I'm asking.

Since I clearly asked about those who worked with the MB, it stands to reason I'm not expecting any sort of answer on those who buy the books, or even those who only post on the forums.

So let's be clear, of those who engage the MB staff, those who pay for coaching, attend the weekends or on-line programs, how many experience the full recovery of their marriages?

That's what I've been asking all along.

So you can consider those who only buy the books, those who read the books from the library or books stores, those who only read the articles on line, those who do any permutation or combination of those short of engaging the MB team for coaching either via the telephone, for a weekend or on-line e-mail coaching if you wish.

I've chose the subset that I believe will have best results, those who engage the actual MB staff and have asked what the success rates are.

So if you continue to mis-represent my question after this clarification, without giving me the courtesy of a clarifying question and presenting reasonable assurance that question will be used to understand and not shout me down, then I will simply ignore you and suggest that you are in violation of the terms of participation here.

If you cannot respect me enough to correctly understand what I'm saying without putting words into my mouth or attempting to discredit me, then I have no choice but to act in a fashion that preserves both my integrity and what I believe to be the stated standards of this message board.

Calling others into question, questioning the motives behind their questions or comments I believe is a clear violation of the terms of service with respect to personal attacks.

I will interpret any further questioning of that sort as a personal attack.

Clear?

Are you suggesting I'm not honest?

Are you unwilling to promise to accept the answers and not continue using them in a sort of ad-homenim attack?

So far, my respectful request for such assurances has been ignored. So why should I answer? If you think I'm dishonest and you cannot promise not to use my answer in an attack, why should I answer?

I promise to challenge your opinion if I don't agree with it. Just as you have challenged others here, I pledge to do the same if I see fit.


I also have well reasoned thoughts but that does not mean I have the right to DEMAND you accept them. You are no more exempt from being questioned and challenged than I am.

Yes.

EE, instead of playing cat and mouse, why not just be up front and honest about your reasons behind this question? What is the relevance?

You can challenge my opinion all you want. But asking if I'm being honest is in no way challenging my opinion.

You can ask for my reasons all you want, but if all you are going to do is tell me my reasons are wrong, then why bother.

Acceptance doesn't mean you agree, it means you accept that I'm an adult who has considered the matter and has formed an opinion. That's all acceptance mean.

So you are saying you are unwilling to accept that I'm an adult and that I've formed an opinion on the matter?

If that's the case, then why do you need to know my answer if you are unwilling to accept it given the above definition of acceptance?

I'm guessing that the numbers who recover are actually going to be much higher for these couples, especially the ones who participate in the weekend/on-line programs.

After all, it's highly unlikely that a wayward spouse who isn't at least somewhat open to recovering the marriage would even agree to try something like that in the first place.

Dr Harley cites 90% from his own cases. This does not reflect those marriages where there is a CURRENT affair. Of those he cites that 15% reconcile in Plan A but gives no such statistic for Plan B and beyond.

Again, I don't understand the relevance.

That's why I'm asking in this manner. I want to get the answer I believe will put the MB program in the best light. The most motivated participants and what are their typical results.

However, it can still be only one spouse participating. Either the BH or BW. One is not assured it will be a data set consisting of only couples.

I paid and was coached, and executed the plan presented and my wife never got on board. Such results would also be considered.

That 90% is when BOTH participate, right? What about the BH or BW whose spouse doesn't get on board?

But you are not being honest about why you think it is relevant. And that is what you keep dodging. So I ask again. Why is this relevant?


You are dodging the question. So I will ask again in order to keep the focus on the question. What is the relevance of your question?

Of course it would be ZERO. The program can't work unless it is worked by 2 people. That is about like asking what is the success rate of the Weight Watchers diet for those who DON'T work it. Zero!

Why not wait to see whether you email is answered?

BTW, as far as I know, EE, emails should be addressed to Mrs Harley. She will reply letting you know the date of the programme so that you can listen.

Why not wait until you get Dr Harley's response on the programme?

Of course not. How could your results be considered if your wife did not work the program? The program obviously cannot work if both do not work it. When Dr Harley tracks successes, he tracks those that USE his program, not those that don't use it.