Do you sell used cars for a living?

People are telling you to keep on snooping to find out if the whole truth and if there is truely NC with the OM.

Instead you offer us that you have proof of when it started. Knowing this one fact has nothing to do with the advice people are telling you to follow.

The way you dodge duck and weave if not a salesman? a politician? or a professional dodge ball player?

Hi pdc. How old are your two kids still living at home?

When your wife moved out in August, did these two kids move with her?

I went back and read your first post. This part escaped me the first time I through.

This part stuck out at me:


If you two HAD been having SF and she has withdrawn from you and doesn't want to have it anymore...coupled with a declaration of still being in love with the teen...

I KNOW you don't want to hear this, but I strongly suspect there has been contact. I noticed you didn't answer how you can confirm NC if you aren't snooping.

I know you want to believe the best in your WW...unfortunately the addictive nature of affairs is a very ugly thing and can transform the best of people into selfish thoughtless creatures. If there is ANY contact at all, it will keep setting you back.

I would not question her on this, keep your best Plan A smile on and snoop snoop snoop...I would put a VAR/GPS in her car.

If she hasn't pursued coming here (probably won't if she is still wayward) then don't mention it again. We are actually here to help you if you will let us. Good luck!

13 and 16 They stayed with me.

I've heard most all of the details of this affair. Should I let it go and not talk about it any further? Seems like that would be a LB.

I know SugarC, She could have been screwing the mailman before she spied out the young stud down the street. Yes the trickle truth is painful but do you really think we will ever know all of it here? How many times she fantasized or what happened prior to Mom revealing it? That will come when they read the books, spend time fighting this crap, and hopefully when she cries on his shoulder admitting how many years she spent frustrated and angry.

I bet there are things we will never know, and even things she will forget, that would curl our hair, about a lot of people. The very personal details will be shared in confidance if anything, and with someone she trusts, if anybody.

We are dealing with pdcs perception, and indirectly, WWs too. We all say we are sorry people have to come here. They bare all kinds of things that could have been handled at home, and we attempt to take the shock out of the wrectched state of human behavior they find themselves subjected to. I think we all beleive the truth will reveal itself, and yes, there is more beneath the surface of everybody that can, and does, surface at times.

When I look at someone screwed up, a homeless drug addict, a criminal, a murderer who in mercy will be executed, I remember, "There but for the Grace of God, go I". So here SH teaches about the boundaries that have been abandoned protecting us in our marriages, much of it from that disciplines we have to go back to, and dare I say it, from Gods point of view.

There are things that should be shared within the confides of the marraige, and even though we know there is more, I don't know if it is relevent if she is working on the marriage that we know it all. All I was doing was pointing out the obvious, and wanting them, them, to find the truth between themselves.

Pdc, I have seen Mel and Sugar on these forums for a long time, they have seen and advised many people and truly have insight on human behavior. Its allways a shock when someone we trusted hangs us out in the wind, someone who we thought loved us, betrays us. We will suffer less if the wound is opened and let out the infection fast, rather than it stayed bound up or covered up. I look at it like the doctor holding you down as he removes the gangrene limb. It can save your life.

As you and your wife work on recovery, and it will take time and some painful effort, you will hurt some more if honesty is served. There are things you didn't know about your wife, things that she should have shared or you were not available for in the past, some things she hid too. I don't doubt it, the facts show its true. So the details you need to know, along with the forgiveness and fear inside you must process as time goes on, will come out one way or another.

Your marriage was in terrible shape, internally, where it counts, long before she left. She had left it long before she slept with dipwad, and you know this allready right? So lets do what you can do to help it, instead of debating whether she is a beautiful mature attractive women with an imagination that gives her a way to fufill her emotional needs. Thats what its about you know, of course you do, emotional needs, yours, hers. Thats what marraige is about right? Thats what Dr H teaches us, and what this site is about, and what the integrity of marriage is for. To care for someone as you would care for yourself, as God does for you, personnaly, deeply, and like no other does on this earth. Even knowing your secret places and weaknesses that are brought to the light and revealed so there is no more fear, but trust.

But I think you know that and want to protect who you believe is the woman you love, good for you, but when you find out she is not the woman you once knew, will you be able to accept and love her even then? I am believing you can, and are willing to do the work it will require to recover. It will take humility, and discipline, and hers also, and time. But what were you gonna do anyway with your time that was more valuable than that?

So SC, I am not ignoring the facts here, and I think pdc is suffering enough with what he already knows also. I know that this site is full of people being gaslighted and how the truth come trickling out and sets people back just when they think they have gotten a step ahead, and the people like pdc suffer, and false recovery happens, and all because the truth wasn't dealt with from the start. I am not trying to gloss it over and say he should either, that would be even more cruel punishment. I am giving them a chance to have full disclosure as she reads the material, believing she has the capacity to come clean, to him.

I hope pdc will continue to come her and help others and his WW also in the future. I am hoping they will both be able to tell all of the trappings that put them in this sitch, as the long process of recovery happens for them. I know about gaslighting and how it feels to beleive the best and stubbornly hold onto it as the real situation sucks the life out of you. Will the truth and all the nasty details come out eventually? Dang sure it will. I hope pdc processes it with grace and the actions that show love for his wife. Thats all anyone can do, is control themselves.

Thats at the heart of the suspicions about your wifes full disclosure, they stand for marriage and the integrity and honesty it carries, and through that, for you and your wife also pdc.

Only you can answer that. When you have reached a point of not needing to hear more, then she doesn't need to give more details.

It's not a LB to have a clear understanding of a crime that has been committed against you.

What did you want to ask her about?

Thanks for seeing what I thought was the right plan too Mel.

I am not the expert on dealing with the next step for him, but many here are. Maybe he should read the books with his wife first? Express hope and excitment that they can recover from this?

I don't know yet, but it seems that active enthusiastic fighting what had happened to them will take a little longer for these guys until they read the books, and do the work ahead of them for a bit. But what do you think they should do now?

When I was 26, a song came out by the Police, "Every breath you take"

I thought the song was a little bit paranoid, and it was possesive, and really I didn't want that kind of relationship, where I would have to watch my love all the time. I thought it would have been a relationship that had no trust.

For those not familiar with the song. here are some of the key lyrics.

Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I'll be watching you

Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay
I'll be watching you

Every move you make
Every vow you break
Every smile you fake
Every claim you stake
I'll be watching you

The ones that really stuck out are in red.


I have come to realize over the years that this is probably one of the most honest love songs. So do do the song justice, here are the qualifiers to why we would even be that much into each others lives from the other lyrics.

O can't you see
You belong to me
How my poor heart aches with every step you take

Since you've gone I been lost without a trace
I dream at night I can only see your face
I look around but it's you I can't replace
I feel so cold and I long for your embrace
I keep crying baby, baby please

----------------------------------

Watching over someone you don't feel life is worth living if they are not healthy and happy is NOT controlling and paranoid. There are many enemys out to destroy you, and your marriage. we must work to protect it, and them.

It comes down to how indestructable we believe we are. "OH, I would NEVER do that", or "they are not like that", or as is in almost every new posters line here, "I never thought this could have happened to us"

Realizing we are human and frail, fallible, and subject to everything that others are in this world, is the beginning of wisdom. To have someone who cares enough for me to kick my butt when I am going astray, is a priveledge, and one I must reciprocate also if I call myself friend

In marraige it is even more so.

When you get into a constant communication with your wife over time revealing both fears and influences you both have in your lives, there will be places that you will help each other in while you sometimes even have conflict, hurt each other, and grow together. This is the work of marriage and many times it reflects the work in all relationships.

Not to sound trite right now, but no pain. no gain.

When you are on the road to recovery, and it is a journey for the rest of your life, you will know you have both earned trust, and trust, because it is in the evidence of actions, and fighting for each other, and it is a constant battle with outside influences. You must gaurd each other from them on the way. They are there and waiting to hurt you.

That is a great head start! My suggestion would be to pull out the Undivided attention worksheet out of the back of your Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook when you get it and make several copies. Sit down with your wife right away and start scheduling out 20+ hours per week of undivided attention time. This will make the FASTEST, most effective love bank deposits and cause you to fall in love again. Your time together needs to be without TV, children, or other people. It should be spent meeting the top 4 intimate needs: affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship.

Yep, you are right. Once you have all your questions answered to your satisfaction, the subject should be dropped. It is an enemy of good conversation AND it keeps you triggered.

I'm not Mel, but my two bits? WW needs to come clean on the real beginnings of her A and needs to go no contact with her AP.

NO mother will leave her children and her marital home unless she's going TO something she perceives as being 'better'.

I agree with this.

If your questions have to do with getting reassurance that NC is in place, please do not do that. SNOOPing is the best way to accomplish that.

If you want to question her more on how the affair began, I would recommend you instead to quietly look into phone records, email accounts and maybe even credit records in the weeks prior to when your W moved out....

I'm very thankful for the support given here. Thank you Constant for your gentle encouragement and insight. Thank you ladies for your pitbull insticts to make sure I get all the details. I know you're trying to protect me from further ambush. Although my wife is still a little "foggy", we have come to a place of complete openness about what happened. I think as constant pointed out there is more for both of us to share about where our hearts, thoughts and passions went during the long demise of our marriage.

The sad part is we are both very passionate, with sexual fullfillment high on our list. We went years both being starved for the thing we both had a strong desire and need for. Of course we couldn't get there without first being in love with each other.

I don't have any illusions that it will be easy, but I believe we will have a marriage that will make our 5 children believe in love and what it can overcome.

I wanted to share the "stand" I took for our marriage before the discovery of the A. It had been going on for a week or two when I came to my senses and realized I loved my wife. Too bad I couldn't have had this revelation before the damage was done. The A was discovered 3 or 4 weeks after giving her this letter.

My Stand

I have so much to say to you. My heart is broken.
I have a vision: You and I much older. We gaze into each other�s eyes and see the experiences of our lifetime:

Interest, newness, love, passion, excitement, optimism, conflict, forgiveness, work, babies, independence , overwhelmed, overcommitted, joy, sorrow, discovery, adventure, another baby, more work, conflict, pain, disheartened, unmet ideals, feelings of failure, anger, retreat, love, hate, indifference, suffering, indifference, brokenness, more indifference, hopelessness, more indifference, anger, hate, indifference, pleading, indifference, sickness, indifference, begging, indifference, dying, indifference, hopelessness, abandonment, abandonment �. resigned, form of peace, form of happiness, RELIEF
God ... unmade, revealed, broken, healing, LOVE, more than hope, healing within, healing within, LOVE, HEALING, rebuilding, discovery, passion, PEACE, joy, sorrow, husbands, wife, grandchildren, nurturing, safety, comfort, wholeness.

We smile. We are wholly ourselves, yet one. Our love died, and was born again, long ago. It is indomitable. It is strong as steel. Our God sustains us. We have mutual cherished friends. Our home is a haven of love. Our children and our grand children cherish the time they spend with us. They see what true love is in us, and what it can overcome. It gives them confidence and an anchor in their lives. They will go on to be wholer, healthier people because of the legacy that is us. We smile.

This is my stand. From it I will not waver.

I was the indifferent one in our relationship. That is radically changed now.

What an awesome letter describing a full life.

Now you understand you were indifferent, and can see that it is probably one of the most painful things anyone can endure.

Now the challange is before you to accually do the MB program and not just look at it and go,"Oh yeah, sounds like a good idea".

Like quitting smoking or going to church or putting on your seat belt are all good ideas. They don't do anything unless you do them.

Looking forward to hearing about continued progress. Seriously.

God bless

Well, it's over. The kid got let out and she went to see him against a protective order.He was underage. My wife is in jail and I have filed for a divorce. I have alot of time on this site, and have immersed myself in the priciples here. I will put them to use in my next relationship sometime down the road. Thanks to all here.

Sorry for omitting the underage factor, but I didn't want to muddy the legal waters. My wife is now convicted. It's over.

I assume you have full custody of your children? I am so sorry.