Love it!

OK, but if the typical result (and I'm not saying it is because so far I'll I've heard in the broadcast is a discussion about depression) is not a restored marriage and that's what the person wants, are we really giving them hope if we don't tell them the typical outcome?

For some, yes. For others, no you are doing the opposite when they get to the end of the plan and their marriage is not restored.

Don't assume that you are giving hope by leaving out details. You may be in some cases, you may be doing the opposite, in the long run for others.

We're assuming that we know what worked for US. We share that.

But you are doing more than that. You are shouting down those who have said it didn't work for me.

Why?

It works for some, doesn't work for others. Why should we hear only one side of that coin? Why are the stories of those who didn't get that result so threatening?

Because we are giving hope along with our tools, not dashing it. Huge difference. HUGE.

Enough maritalbliss. You think you are helping. I think I'm helping, I have no confidence that you'll see the benefits of what I'm saying. You are not going to convince me that I'm doing anything but helping those facing the decision, so please, honor the moderators wishes as expressed on the other thread and knock it off.

I just heard my question. Unless there is more, I don't recall hearing Dr H say he would plan A. What I heard is that only 15% of affairs end the right way, which apparently is the spouse ends the affair and enters into a plan of MB. I think he got to 95% of all affairs ending, but I didn't hear where the figures on restoration were presented.

What I did hear is that the 15% is not really due to the plans, but the moral character of the WS. So only about 15% of WS's end the affair in the right way.

So did I miss something? Is there more to come? The loop seems to be back at depression, so I'm not expecting to hear more on my question.

PS, I never did get an e-mail from Joyce indicating my question was going to be on today's broadcast.

People in crisis want to know what to do. That's why they come to me and that's why they come here. They don't want disclaimers and they certainly don't want to pay my lawyers fees for me to explain every potential angle to them so THEY can decide what to do. Maybe one or two choices but they already know they are up against it and want direction out of the quagmire.

There is no way to quantify the quagmire. Like I said yesterday, I think the 15%, 95%, 65% number are just guesses anyway (maybe we'll know in a few minutes). It's not a REAL solid number anyway and the people that show up here generally want to save their marriage and don't care if the number is 5%, 10%, 15% or whatever. They just want a plan and hope. I think you'll agree that hope, though you and I see things from opposite ends of the outcome spectrum, hope is undeniable...there is ALWAYS hope.

Changing directions.

I think the MB forums are much more like an emergency trauma center at the hospital rather than a lawyers office. In the trauma center, the traumatized patient doesn't want the doctors running around conferring and arguing with each other over the treatment plan (especially in front of him) nor does he necessarily want to given options by the doctor. The patient wants treatment and he/she wants it NOW. He/she is traumatized and NOT in a condition mentally sufficient to make rational and competent decisions on his/her own behalf. Take your case...the doctors and forum posters at that time gave you too much credibility and presumed you were rational enough to make the call that your wife was, in fact, NOT having an affair despite a lot of trending evidence to the contrary. They did not do you any favors by listening to the patient. Doctor's orders should have been to ORDER you inspect what you expect and snoop to confirm or not what you thought was true. Doctors, lawyers and Therapists/Professional Coaches are PRACTICING professions which necessarily means they aren't perfect and by nature get better with time. We know, today, on the MB forums you'd have likely gotten better advice. Perhaps Steve would have been better today than he was back then...presuming he even erred (I wasn't there) and presuming it would have made a difference in your outcome.

Another point...talking about "outcomes" is fruitless. If I've learned anything here over the years it's that predicting which ones will make it and which ones won't is a complete waste of time. Heck, I still have hope for Sick of Limbo's case and he's technically divorced right now. Telling someone 10%, 15%, 20% is meaningless as most betrayed spouses can't put any value on what it would mean to them and their children to save their marriage. Their families are priceless and thus, valueless when weighing odds with any sense of rationality. Plus...it doesn't matter. The beauty of the MB plans is it/we guide the participants gently (hopefully) down the path of reconciliation OR divorce. It's the same plan either way and I DO tell people that often times in my initial post to them when I say:

"I'm not sure about whether we can help you save your marriage or not but either way YOU will make it"

Now I'm talking in circles...I just know that you and I both showed up on MB looking for hope. We found it here. It didn't do much of anything for you but it did the world for me. Everyone's results will vary and your story is just as valuable here. Your story is a reminder to all of us not to get our hopes up too much as we all get vested in trying to make these situations better and, frankly, some we can't and don't. Isn't gonna stop me from trying. There is always hope.

Mr. W

KNOCK IT OFF???

Mr W, I think that's reasonable and you have articulated the value of my perspective that others have been trying to shout down.

I just heard him say it, he would try to find out what emotional needs he missed and try to meet them, and how difficult it would be.

Ok...

Let's say someone wakes up in a hospital bed having been brought out of an induced coma only to discover their legs don't work....they're paralyzed from the waist down.

In the days that follow should the hospital wheel in hundreds of patients with varying outcomes including some dead bodies on gurneys that killed themselves due to the depression that followed them upon arriving home or should the first few important days be spent on introducing them to people that continued to thrive despite losing the use of their legs and attempting to motivate them to work (as I believe the first few months of rehabilitation can make a HUGE difference in the outcomes as the injured nerves and muscles heal as best they can).

IMO, HOPE is the more appropriate message up front. Sure...down the road some discussion is absolutely necessary about the psychological challenges awaiting them and how cognizant they need to be of feelings of depression as they come to understand the full devastation the injury is going to play on their now shorten lives. But those conversations aren't being held in week one.

I do think SOME caution can be delivered by relating a story like yours such that a BH, in particular, get so caught up in saving his marriage that he completely destroys his custody case but you won't be the only one expressing that as a good custody fight makes reconciliation MORE possible not less...so we'll be on the same team at that point.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I'm not calling you the dead body on the gurney....the suicide is merely a correlation with divorce and loss of custody of children as the worst outcome in the paralysis situation.

Another point...


If you agree you are the "dead body on the table" outcome...then can you understand why others may ask you to be a little more sensitive about how you go about sharing your story/experience.

It's a precautionary tale.

It is a tale that happens often (though admittedly I don't see it often on MB...I think we've helped way more divorced BH's get better custody deals than they would have had they not been here so your story isn't that typical)

But our newly arrived "patients" need hope, not to be told THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU QUITE LIKELY SO GET USED TO BENDING OVER AND TAKING IT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO ME.


Do you want to be a part of the cure or part of the poison?

I recommend relating your story in a more sensitive manner and you'll find more people will be more empathetic and appreciative of your participation. You said you have trouble reading and relating to people...how about working on that?

Or not. At this point...even I am beginning to think you enjoy swimming against the current either that or nailing jello was always a dream of yours (lol).

Mr. Wondering

EE, I did note that you settled for the every-other-weekend deal because you had already lost $10000 in legal fees. You didn't really fight to the end for 50/50 custody, did you?

Not to make this about me, so this will be my last comment on this for the day.

I think I am being sensitive. After all, you've read my story, you saw the outcome, do you think I would be sensitive to those who will likely experience the very same outcome if I keep silent?

I'm getting really good at reading people. After all, I've picked up on all the personal attacks and how threatened folks are when I share my story.

Yet you and a few others actually have taken the time to understand it. I recognize that.

Others simply want it swept under the rug.

So who is not getting and relating to whom? Am I so different that folks are unwilling or unable to relate to me, my experiences and my perceptions or what?

My problem is that I have expectations. That folks will give the same courtesy and understanding that they say they want. I find relatively few people, even here, those who claim to be working on their relationship skills. (After all, much of MB translates to relationships other than with your spouse.) Yet I still read the DJ's, the angry outbursts, and what not.

I'm not sure there is a sensitive way to say my XW had an affair, I engaged in the program, coached by Steve Harley and ended up divorced and a visitor to my child.

So back to the topic, 15% of WS's will end the affair the right way, which mean never see the lover, protections, etc.

The other 80% of affairs that end end regardless what the BS does. We do not know how many of those that end end up in recovered marriages.

MelodyLane said yesterday that she's read the figure is 20% of marriages that are touched by affairs are recovered to a standard that Dr Harley would approve. I.E. they are marriages that use MB principles.

The remaining marriages either end or you wouldn't want to be in one of them.

Again, Dr H never really came out and gave a numeric answer to the question how many BH's experience a recovered marriage, but I suspect it's in that 15-20% range and the 15% are due to the moral character of the WS, not because of what he did or didn't do. The other approximately 5% are due to other factors including but not exclusively the components exposure, plan A and plan B.

For me and others who are like me, I find this helpful. If it's a task where failure is the typical outcome, it actually reduces the stress. There is no pressure to achieve the outcome of a recovered marriage because it's not an expected outcome.

I'm a performance based person, and I doubt I'm the only one out there. I really get little satisfaction out of trying my best and failing. I'm very critical of myself when I fail, when I don't obtain my objectives. So for someone like me knowing it is unlikely is a key bit of information.

I approached the task with only one expected outcome, I would have a restored marriage, period.

When it became obvious that was not going to be the outcome, I almost ended up being one of those patients on the gurney who took his own life.

So no, I'm being very sensitive, I don't want anyone else to find themselves in that same circumstance and come to a different decision regarding their own life should they fail at this quest.

So am I really insensitive, or merely sensitive to different things that other haven't seen, nor do they even attempt to see them? I'd like to think I'm very sensitive.

I have little indication my particular sensitive nature is welcome, so I've said my peace and will take the hint.

Here's a deal...

Please email me if you see me giving a new poster primrose advice and neglecting to somewhat portray or couch my advice with the harsh realities of his or her dire situation and in return I'll try to communicate with you if and when I see a post of yours that I perceive as insensitive.

Again...when the newly paralyzed patient awakes nobody is going to appreciate the resident in the back of the room aggressively reminding everyone that 20% of paralyzed patients eventually kill themselves. It IS a reality (just guessing at the percentage) so it will need to be discussed with the family and eventually the patient...but not when they first wake up or even the first week or so that they begin their journey as a newly handicapped person.


Mr. Wondering

p.p.s. - another thought...hindsight is 20/20. I very much doubt had you been giving you advice several years ago that you would have gotten through to you. I think you'd have not listened to you at all until you were ready to hear you.


Your ex took advantage of your kindness and trustfulness and exploited the situation to her advantage. She gave you just enough information to keep you hoping while stabbing you in the back with the other in a state completely unsympathetic to betrayed fathers. You didn't FAIL. Failure, to me, would have been NOT TRYING. Failure would have been committing suicide in the face of such persecution and trials. You tried and you persevered. Aren't you remarried now? Your wife is the FAILURE. Life ain't over yet. Besides you WERE aware that their was a divorce and custody action filed against you and that you could lose. I think one of the reasons instinctively that so many men TRY to save their marriage, despite all odds is their complete understanding that they are very likely to get screwed in court and become visitors in their children's lives. That being said...it does work both ways...Mrs. W and I have a friend whose children don't want to see their wayward father at all and the court is mandating visitation even after threats and physical intimidation charges. The court thinks the mother is alienating the father so she's having to make her children visit their father nicely so as to not cause waves so she can keep primary custody despite the kids being scared to death and suffering mentally and physically doing so. It's not just fathers getting screwed ...it's mothers and children as well. The consequences of divorce don't discriminate.

Why not? It's happened on 3-4 threads over the past few days.


Why wouldn't you be? And why wouldn't you try to help push people AWAY from the outcome you've experienced, rather than this doom-and-gloom you've decided to adopt?

Fact-of-the-matter is, that YOU could be a boon of support to those who DO eventually reach the same outcome.

You've survived so far, right?


Why should anyone be "threatened" by your story?


On the contrary, your story has a shining place - for those who will be facing the outcome of divorce. For those people, your experiences will be invaluable.


By your own admission; sensitive. Possibly hard-headed. It's all been about you being heard and acknowledged, not you hearing or acknowledging anyone else. It is not the failure of others to see your point, it's your flat-out refusal to see anyone else's.


You mean AO/DJ's toward you? Nobody here is trying to fill your love bank, sir.

Additionally, giving you a nod for "being correct" is not courtesy.


Probably not. You've been through hell, and nobody can deny that.



The fun thing about those statistics is that they are recorded by the result. One cannot possibly know the outcome based solely on the statistics.

For instance; you may have a genetic and lifestyle risk of 80% for heart disease, and never get sick. Or, you could have a 20% chance, and drop dead at work at 37.

You can't possibly know the outcome.

So, what if you are in the 80% bracket? You work out, manage your diet, take medication to control your blood pressure, manage stress, whatever. That reduces your chances by attacking the problem head on, and lose nothing by it.


"Life�s real failure is when you do not realize how close you were to success when you gave up."

There is a difference between defeat and failure. Failure occurs BECAUSE YOU DID NOT DO YOUR BEST.

Defeat occurs because your best was not the right approach to the situation, or you were outmatched.

Quitting is failure in my book, sir.

And, again, going back to the Trauma Unit analogy; it's not about you, it's about the patient.


If I would have invested in Yahoo, I could have been a millionaire... hindsight.


It's not about you.

I've been reading this thread for a bit with a mixture of bemusement and disdain.

Why?

Because I'm one who did not recover his marriage. In fact, not only did WW vehemently refuse to engage in any attempted recovery, many of the veteran posters here questioned whether it should be saved or not. They made me think.

And therein lies my own recovery.

I don't believe I am misrepresenting Dr. Harley by saying Marriage Builders works - if both partners in the marriage buy into it. In fact, I believe Dr. Harley himself has said in those cases, it always works.

So why are we slicing and dicing? Since we're on the SAA forum, we all recognize the 'fog' that overcomes the wayward spouse. This fog must first be cleared before any attempt at recovery can be made. Will the fog always be cleared away? In my opinion, no.

Dr. Harley's program does not guarantee the fog will be removed. In my opinion, Plan A and Plan B offer the best method for attempting to clear the fog, but they are not guaranteed. But they are not Dr. Harley's Marriage Builder plan in toto.

Attempting to measure the efficacy of Dr. Harley's Marriage Builders based on a small portion of it -- and that portion dealing with a marriage in collapse for starters -- does the whole program and the Dr.'s work a major disservice, in my opinion.

/soapbox

I really like this. You know why? Because it's true!





Where there is life, and faith, there is hope.


Very well put.

Recently, I have been thinking over a major health decision, and originally I thought:

"I'd rather be dead than have that surgery."

A week later, I was more at peace with the choices I have.
It could go either way.
But, my responsibility is to make the very best decision I can under any circumstances.
Do I want this choice?
Hell no.
But, it is what it is.
And, I will not "give up" my integrity or my faith or my hope just because of some lousy thing I must deal with.

Infidelity is not dissimilar.
It involves making some lousy choices under some lousy circumstances.
I think the worst error is to give into fear and anxiety and surrender to one's lesser human qualities.
Our grief can elevate us to a higher plane of human understanding.
Or, not.
We must resist the pit of permanent vitriol and poisonous hatred that casts a dark shadow over our own goodness.

End of sermon.

Damn right, Skippy.
Because, as much as it hurts, we all are imperfect spouses, with plenty of room for improvement.

And, furthermore, meeting those needs does not guarantee anything about the marriage will be recovered. What it does guarantee is the betrayed spouse LEARNS from his/her errors and LEARNS to take his/her own inventory and responsibility for their part of the condition of the marriage.

Gotta love that Fred, yanno?

If the WS pays no attention to the new and improved BS .... so what?
Is it not still our responsibility to be the very best we can be under unpleasant/painful/humiliating circumstances?
Or, are we given the green light to ignore our own integrity and behave poorly because our spouse has treated us poorly?