Couple of down days. And I am the one who put myself there. I was waiting for DD#2 at her music lesson yesterday, and I'd come from work and forgotten to bring anything to read. Well, I had my cell phone. I've saved most of H's texts to me over the past year. So I started reading from back in January 2010. One year ago this week I was in a week-long training class. He had ignored the texts and emails I'd sent him during that week up until exactly one year ago today. He texted me that he loved me and missed me so much. I got as far as last June while sitting there, when he sent me a text saying that his decision was to stay w/me. I got myself pretty worked up so I was a mess when I got home. While the kids had supper I walked outside in the yard by myself, so I wouldn't lose it in front of them.

Had to drive to another training site today, about and hour and 20 minutes away. Couldn't listen to the radio 'cause every other song would remind me of something. Seemed like every car on the road was some variation of his car. The route I take to get to this site takes me past our old house. Just a sucky couple of days, and it was my fault for putting myself there, because I kept getting stuck in that downward spiral and didn't stop it like I know I should have.

It's been wierd the last couple of weeks. The kids are out of school on a break, and H decided to change his work schedule so he could keep them while I was at work, and they've stayed with me last weekend and I'll have them this weekend. So last week he asks if it is OK for him to just come to the house and sleep on the couch when he gets off work, so he'd be there in the morning. I said OK. This week he asked if he could sleep in the bed, because the couch was killing his back. I said OK.

Sounds positive...but I guess I finally managed to crush my little inner optimist because I just don't believe it means anything to H anymore. I have pretty much convinced myself that he's done. On the up side, that means I'm not freaking out and Tommy Boy-ing (we need a Tommy Boy smiley-guy thingy) all over anything that seems positive. I've seen him a lot more the last couple of weeks, so I have been avoiding LB's, trying to keep the house clean, making sure I look nice...but I feel kind of like I am standing at the edge of the woods, trying to entice a wild animal to eat out of my hand, terrified and hopeful at the same time, terrified that it will either turn on me or run away.

Girls' weekend this weekend, though...taking the DD's on a little mini-vacation and we're all excited! I think a little change of scenery will do us all some good. And I don't know, maybe I am trying to prove to myself that I'll be OK. That we can still have a "family trip" even if it wears a different face. That I can handle it. And I believe I can.

WPG, the down days will come for a long time still. However, the important thing is: they seem to be fewer and further between, and you are weathering them better - correct? If yes, you are headed in the right direction.

I understand the crushing of the inner optimist - it is both a good and a sad place to be, I think. Good in that you are emotionally protected somewhat, sad because of what it means. Also dangerous - what if the protection becomes withdrawal?

No real point here, just letting you now you're being heard. And you sound like you're in a better place than just a little while ago.

Thanks, Mrs. V...most days, I have been feeling better, just this week, for some reason, has been rougher.

I know withdrawal is not where I want to be if I want to restore this M, and I hate to say it, but it just seems so much safer. I know that eventually I'll come through this, that I'll be OK, but I won't be the same person. And that's good in a lot of ways, as there were a lot of things about me that I didn't like, and I have the opportunity to change those things, to become a better person and to fix the hole in my character that contributed to my A. But there were also things about me that I did like, and I'm finding that a lot of those things are just somehow...different. In time I'll get used to it. Some things don't change. I'm still a mother, still a daughter, a sister, a friend. Things that have really been my anchor here when I was at my darkest.

I know he wasn't a perfect husband. Neither was I a perfect wife. But through all of it, I loved him and I believed in him...until I let him down. I know my family and friends mean well, but I think they think I am looking back at our M with rose colored glasses. The truth is I don't want to be reminded of the old hurts. That's old stuff. I chose to forgive him for all of that already, and I don't want to drag it back out again. And I also know that for us to work, for us to reconcile, we'd need a completely new M anyway.

I believed that he and I could have an incredible M, but I've learned that what I believe doesn't matter a bit without a little belief on his side. It just sucks to know that no matter how you look at it, I was the architect of all of this.

OK, I'm rambling...I'm going to think about nothing but enjoying my girls this weekend. And next week I am going to start training for a half-marathon. I don't know when it's gonna be, but I'm going to start training again, I've let myself get way too slack! One of my girlfriends who runs (there were 3 of us gals who took up running together) is training for the Marine Corps marathon in the fall of this year. Yeah, she's a little crazy (26 miles????) but wow - how cool is that? I don't know if I'm quite ready for marathon training...I'm going to start a little smaller than that...

Don't know... some of this sounds positive. Yeah, you are in a tough spot, but you are beginning to focus and realign.

I'm not going to make any assumptions on your H's behavior. It is whatever it is, and it is probably best to just keep up what you are doing; a quasi-Plan A as best you can when you can.

Don't mourn the loss of your optimist... that little hair troll kept dangling you over the abyss and promising you candy, and dropping you when you couldn't reach the other side. She was the one cheering you on until you crushed the biscuit each time.

Just remember to protect that LB$!

WPG, I've been following your story from the start and I've been rooting for you.

You seem to be in a good place right now: hoping for the best, but making a nice life for you and your girls.

Don't read too much into what your H is doing right now, but
continue to protect your LB, while doing Plan A when you can.

I hope you get to enjoy your "Girls Weekend"!

(((WPG)))

so what happened there? how was your H? he is in a fog of his own. like i said before, Reynolds or I would happy to grab a good old bucket of ice cold water and throw it on him. did he sleep perched on the edge of the bed? my WW just LOVES doing that. am temtped at times to give her a little nudge off the bed. boom.

you didnt crush your little inner optimist. it is still there, but so is your realist. you are simply worrying about you and doing a tremendous job. took me a long time to see that one. it took talking to my pastor, my MiL and then Steve H. in succession last week to get it through my thick skull to do it. i am there and you are too. and if our spouses are happy? cool. if they want out, cool. i will be fine as you will too. i hate to sound the optimist bc i am usually the opposite, but your H reminds me of the wolf from Dances with Wolves. you are John Dunbar and he is the wolf Two socks. patience.



would've embedded it but dont know how.

you can and are going to have a great time. somehow make sure your H is aware of things. don't know if he would feel envy? nevertheless all the best. you deserve it.

this is us all. i for one was a terrible H. my W was a saint but then made some unfortunate choices to compensate.


you were and you weren't. as much as i have tried to understand her choice to have the A's and my lingering resentment and anger over it, i played a signficant role in the degradation of our M.

run forrest run. you must have great lungs. wow. keep up the positive!

So we're back...the girls and I had a fun time and for the most part managed to keep my mind off of H and stay on an even keel. It caught up to me though the closer we got to home but I went in the bedroom, unpacked, had a good cry, and moving on.


He didn't perch on the edge of the bed and didn't actively move away or push me away if I got too close. We did have SF the first night but neither of us tried to initiate anything the other 2 nights. Both of us have been through the sleeping on the edge of the bed thing, even pre-A when one or the other of us was stewing over something. If we'd only been better at communicating, instead of going to bed angry.



Each of us is 50% responsible for the condition of our M, I agree with you there. But I'm the only one responsible for my decision to have an A. It was a selfish and stupid decision. H makes comments to me like "I hope it was worth it." It wasn't. Not in a million years.

But I sometimes can't decide what, exactly, I am missing right now. I spent a lot of time this weekend people-watching. I watched families, couples, how they interacted. The kids were in the pool last night, and a couple gets in the pool with their daughter, who starts playing with my girls. The husband and wife looked so happy. They weren't ooey gooey overly PDA mushy, nothing like that, but they were holding hands or he had his arm around her, etc. I started thinking, I never had that. H rarely let me hold his hand in public, even before the A. If I reached for him, he'd jerk his hand away, and he never reached for my hand. So, am I only missing who he was those first 4 months of R, when he literally swept me off my feet? Because the man I was married to rarely filled my need for AF, AD, or IC. He would fulfill SF on his schedule. Yes, he filled FC, DS, FS. But he was not O&H with me. Neither was I with him, before anyone throws rocks at me! Believe me, I know how I messed up as a wife, even before the A. But I learned enough things about him during the 1st 4 months of R to fill a book, things I had never known about him.

I think if I start thinking too much about the old M, it won't be conducive to me wanting to R. But even if he decides he wants to stay married to me, is he willing to do the things he did during that 4 months, the things that made me fall in love w/him all over again? Because as much as it hurts now to be without him, I don't want our "old" M. I've seen what we can be like together. I guess it is just part of the consequences of my actions to have to remember what it was like, what it could be, if we'd found MB sooner.

Here's a question for you all, since PUP and HHH brought up the issue of the LB$: How do I protect my LB$? It's taking a lot of withdrawals and deposits are few. I guess it seems as since eliminating all contact w/H (sort of a Plan B, even though it isn't technically that) is ill-advised, since I do want to save my M, I don't know how to detach enough to protect myself and what little is left in my LB$, to prepare for the very real probability of divorce, and still quasi-plan A.

How about not comparing your M to other people?

WPG, FWW and I had a M that was the envy of all of our friends and family until I withdrew.

You can't possibly know what is going on in someone else's M. That couple could be doing all of that, and then sleeping in separate beds at home. Through your lens, you only considered what you saw based on where you are and where you have been.

We can only see from where we are standing, WPG.


I've been reflecting lately, and I've come to the conclusion that Love Busters do not only damage our LB$ with our spouse, a lot of it damages their account with us. Our own thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and expectations make withdrawals even when our spouse is not actively engaging in Love Busters themselves!

Verbalizing a disrespectful judgment makes a withdrawal with our spouse, but thinking in a manner that conducts disrespectful judgments penalizes our spouse's accounts without their action or knowledge.

Direct dishonesty makes a withdrawal, but dishonesty also leads to sacrifice, which MAKES A WITHDRAWAL FROM OUR OWN BANK.

Many of our own thoughts and behaviors penalize our spouse's account - so even if they are NOT Love Busting, withdrawals are made because of our own thought processes and attitudes.

So what happens when they are Love Busting? Double dips! We unknowingly contribute to the demise of our spouse's LB$ balance!

It's the same as it has been - you contrast your past or current M with either your expectations or observations of others, and you continue to drain your H's account.

Make sense?

You're right. I should know better. And it's a trap I've always fallen into, and still stumble into. Even reading the threads from BH's here, which have been very helpful to me as far as understanding my BH's feelings, they make me sad not only b/c of unrepentant WW's, but b/c of the fight these BH's are putting into recovery. But then my H could answer that he did fight, for 4 months, and I still lied.

I think it's just the general sense of discouragement and the overall loss of hope. Maybe I'm trying to focus on the past to make myself feel better about the way things are headed. Yet I know I shouldn't think about all the hurts from the past, because #1) I told myself - and him - that I'd forgiven all of that and #2) I was never honest about being hurt. There were so many times I should have been honest about something that hurt me or made me angry/upset right at the get-go, but I made a lot of assumptions based on past behavior and I kept silent. So in a way, it's not fair for me to focus on the past b/c I was equally responsible for the state of our M.


Yeah, I see this. And there's just not much left in H's account at all, and even though he's not here physically, the cold and businesslike communication w/him (or the lack of - such as ignoring my emails or texts) makes w/drawals from his account. Him being here in the bed with me I think made some deposits, but then the cold behavior outside the bedroom makes withdrawals. Him spending the evening with his stepmother celebrating her b-day, when he ignored mine, that was a big withdrawal. The two of them text back and forth all the time, according to her and to the phone bill. There's not enough deposits anymore to make up for those withdrawals. And every time I think about something from the past I'm making new withdrawals based on old stuff.

And I still feel like I have no right to complain about anything because of what I did. And I assume (DJ alert) that when he looks at me all he sees is a wh*re, so he treats me like one in the bedroom. And every day hope dies more and more. Not to get into a discussion of faith, but my faith has always been tenuous at best...people tell me to "pray" and I added that into my sig line...but the truth is I rarely pray anymore because I just don't see the point.

There really isn't anything else I can do at this point except just let him go and try to move on with my life. It sucks, and I hate it, but I don't really have a choice now, since I pretty much made mine back in 2009, and I have to live with the consequences.

Have you told him while he is there with you that you want to work on your marriage? Or are you just quiet and just hope that he is going to come back that way. What types of things do you say to him when he is there with you in the bed? Trying to get him back shouldn't mean you have to be a doormat...

Treating you like a piece of meat is injurious to you... you guys should get this show on the road.

I could never treat my wife like a piece of meat... after seeing her tears and her intense regret/remorse.... I am better than that.

We haven't had any R talk since that day he offered to "periodically" have SF with me. Up until a couple weeks ago, I was regularly sending him cards and gifts, stuff from the romantic to the practical, but I stopped. I know he gets them, b/c the kids will have seen me working on something and they'll see it in his room. We don't talk in bed. He used to at least look at me, but he keeps his eyes closed for the most part now. The last thing I said to him when I got out of bed last Thursday morning - I was waking him up so I could go to work - I said, "For what it's worth, I still love you."



I think that's what scares me. I did things that he never in a million years thought I'd do, but if he is truly using me like a piece of meat...well, that is something I never thought he would do. I know that's making a DJ of his feelings/actions...but I just can't believe he could be so...mean. But then again, it pales in comparison to what I did to him. Apples to oranges.

You have been trying for so long without any encouragement from him.

The next step would be to be O&H with him. To tell him that you want him back in the house, to work on recovery.

If that's what you want at this point.

Slowly you have been making a good life for you and your girls. Do you truly want recovery?

I know I will never go back to the way my M was before his A.

If your H is not willing to come back and start over all you can do is be the best "You" for yourself and your precious girls.

"The last thing I said to him when I got out of bed last Thursday morning - I was waking him up so I could go to work - I said, "For what it's worth, I still love you."

What was his response to this? Anything?

Yes, it's time be O&H with him. Radical honesty is part of the MB program. It was your lack of honesty that got you to where you are now. How can not being O&H with your H now possibly make the situation any better?

Sorry, WPG, but I think your next step is separation.

Call into the Harley's radio show & confirm it. But I bet you a nickel they'll confirm the approach. It's sometimes simply inevitable, and in this case you're facing a husband who flatly REFUSES to meet your emotional needs. Whether you agree with his reasons or not, it's either separate now while you have a chance to repair things, or divorce later when neither one of you has any gas left in the tank for the spouse.

If and only if;


The next step is best to be logically guided by Dr. Harley or an MB coach.

I don't want our pre-A M either. It was a sea of complacency, selfishness, and a renter's mindset on both our parts. What I want is the way things were when he committed to recovery...but each day that goes by, more and more I don't believe that will ever be.

Nothing. I know he was awake, b/c he'd answered me when I said DD#1 was awake, and that I'd made coffee. I can't even remember the last time he said he loved me.

So how do I do O&H, when he doesn't want to talk to me? He scoffed and rolled his eyes at me during the "I'll have periodic sex w/you" convo. Do I write a letter? I've written countless letters before. He knows that I still love him, that I regret what I've done, and that I want to do everything in my power to make it up to him.

Sadly, I think DNM is right. I just don't want to admit it. And I think Dr. H would probably agree. The last time I was on the radio show, he advised me to get an attorney, which I haven't done. I've been afraid to pull the trigger on that, thinking that if there was a tiny chance for this M to be saved, that me retaining an att'y would kill that tiny chance.

I've let him do pretty much whatever he wanted since he left, let him have the kids when he wanted, spend money on whatever he wanted while I maintain the bank account and pay all the bills, let him in and out of my bed, and nothing has seemed to make him any closer to coming home. If anything, he's more entrenched. He has his stepmother to fill pretty much all his needs except FS and SF. I feel like that's all I am good for.

I was watching this comedy on TV the other night, and one of the characters said she wasn't going to have sex anymore without love, that it was meaningless. One of the other characters asked how did she suddenly develop self-esteem? Maybe it sounds hypocritical, coming from a former adultress, but I don't want to have sex without love anymore, either. That's what I want him to know. I don't want to be his wh*re anymore; I want to be his wife.

I just don't know how to tell him all of this, to be able to do it without breaking down or losing my nerve, or even to be assured that he's listening. And I'm afraid. Afraid of losing him forever. But really and truly, most likely I already have lost him forever, so there's not much left for me to lose now, is it?

This sounds pretty good to me. I would go with that.

"And I'm afraid. Afraid of losing him forever. But really and truly, most likely I already have lost him forever, so there's not much left for me to lose now, is it?"

And maybe you have. But not being honest with him about your feelings isn't going to change that. Radical Honesty is never wrong. Lying about your feelings is never right.

At the very least, you will recover some of your self-respect and self-esteem. You'll never do this if you feel as though your H is using you and treating you like a piece of meat. If that's how his actions are making you feel, then you need to be honest about that.

***Sorry for the screwy quote thing. There just doesn't seem to be a way for me to quote more than one thing in a post on my MacBook. Been trying to figure it out for years and I've never solved the mystery.

**edit**

You need to tell him you want to have a loving, passionate marriage in petson, you need a response from him. Bring this to the crossroads.