You can also send an email to the radio show with a link to your thread in it so you can get additional input from Dr. W. Harley.
I think its a great way for you to go for input!

Woot,

Hi, been a while since I posted on your thread. Listen, I think that you have tried just about everything that you could, and she hasn't been responsive to any of your overtures. A wife returning from overseas and not spending time with her husband, and more importantly, not even showing you any respect at all to even be truthful with you, is not someone that you're going to get cooperation from. You wondered what would happen when she returned and if she would be amenable to staying married - I think you have got your answer, right?

JAG can give you legal advice (as long as she hasn't been there first) but they won't be able to represent you in a state court. I think that you should file for divorce, not much sense to file for a legal separation when there aren't any financial entanglements or minor children involved. If your filing for divorce doesn't provide any incentive for her to change her behavior and start working on recovering your marriage, then nothing probably will.

Your situation reminds me a bit of an officer who was on here some months ago.

Its Sat, and she just called and wants to talk about us.

I think she is about to hand me divorce papers. Ohh well.

That is probably true but atleast you know you went down fighting hard and you didn't lose... you actually won.

That might be hard to see now but you have a great chance to know a better woman and you can introduce her to marriage builders concepts right from the start!

Eric

So, what happened, Woot?

Alright so my head is such a mess right now.

She came over, and we sat on the couch and talked about us for a while. The whole time she was pretty adamant about not wanting to be married. Well, earlier that week I had convinced myself that I didn't want to remain in this marriage either. I even went out and bought a drum set with the money for her track day, convinced that I didn't give a damn what she thought anymore.

Easier said than done.

We talked, and in that talk I agreed that we should probably get divorced, and that I was done trying to make it work just by myself when she obviously didn't care about me. I think it kind of caught her off guard. I asked her what her needs were, and how she would feel fulfilled in a marriage and she replied: well I guess communication. and mutual respect.

I asked her if she would go to a marriage counselor, and quoted her Mom's advice "Y'all should wait until you get back together, go to a counselor, then decide." She changed the subject, and I asked her again. She said "a marriage counselor isn't going to change my mind." Again, not a no. But I felt that if I pried again it would indeed flip to the no side just because her wall was going up.

Well, with her hearing that I had given up, we've had 3 awesome days together. Its strange. We pretty much haven't left each others side, we went skateboarding, and just spent time together doing stuff. We've watched two movies on our couch (opposite sides) and today we took a 6 hour car trip, and after the awkwardness went away, she talked for the entire trip. Tomorrow is our anniversary, and she even wanted to go snowboarding. But she got called into work, so now she can't go. (I heard the phone call, so its not bullshitting) I hate the military.

Yesterday, we were getting some stuff done around the house, we got some mail about our car insurance. So I called the bank, and the car insurance is in her name, but I am on the account. Well a while back (like in Nov.) she called to create her own account, and had started closing the joint account. I guess she had said that we were separating, since they had me listed as an ex-spouse. Well we called, and SHE said to them "We aren't divorced or separated, I'm just thinking about it. Could you please remove that, we are still married." I wanted to leap. Later that day she called a lady she had submitted apartment paperwork to and canceled it. She slept in the spare bedroom that night.

Well tonight, after getting back from our 6 hour trip which I REALLY enjoyed (yes, I'm feeling in love again. We've spent about 36 hours together in the past 72, with about 6 hours of good conversation just being over) and we sat down and watched Tron (her suggestion). I opened a bottle of wine for myself, and after two glasses myself I offered her one and she said sure. She really liked it, so I opened another bottle. Three glasses down for me, and one down for her.

Well, after the movie, I looked at her and said "Time for me to do something I'll regret later. Julie, I think you are a wonderful person. You are beautiful, I really enjoyed spending this entire day just talking to you, and I love you. I want to be with you."

She hid under the blanket, and then grew cold and distant again.
I gave her a kiss on the head, and said "I love you."

Then after a bit, she got up and headed to her bathroom. I gave her a few minutes, then went outside the door and I thought I heard sniffles, but it could be her runny nose or my hopeful imagination. I said "Julie, the only reason I said I'd regret saying that, is because I think it makes you angry to hear that I love you. But I do love you." she replied in her best stern voice "you're just making it harder on yourself." to which I said "As you always say, I'm just being honest. I've tried to convince myself to give up. But I can't." "If you have any confusion, at least recognize it, and give it a chance. Goodnight."

She spent another 10 mins or so in there, I heard a few sniffles and a few throat clears, but I couldn't tell their cause. Ie. I dont' want to jump the gun and say she was crying. Then she turned on the shower and got in. Thats where she is now as I'm writing this.

Tomorrow we wake up at 4am, and she has to drop her car off at the dealership to get serviced and then take my car to work which is about an hour and a half away. Snowboarding is out, and tomorrow is our 4 year Anniversary.


Guys (and gals) I am SO DAMN CONFUSED! I had myself convinced that I had given up. But then to quote my friend when I ask him "Dude, what am I doing?" his reply is "It's because she is right in front of you man, and honestly? If I were in your shoes I'd probably be doing the same thing." This is my best friend now, that has led me to the church I attend. All 3 of us went skateboarding Sunday night and my wife really enjoyed that.

So I ask y'all. What am I doing?
What do I do? Is saying "I love you, I want to be with you" or pushing to go to a counselor bad right now? (She said she wants to move back east ASAP, I mean as soon as her unit will clear her off. Which might be next week)

I can't help but feel that her mind isn't made up either. She told me where all she went "to the spa" and I called and checked up and it all checks out.

It seems like everything was going amazing until I said "I love you I want to stay with you."

I feel that by saying that I put her defenses up again, and my current fear is that she will find a "reason that I have to stay up here for work" on our anniversary so that she can avoid spending the night with me in case I bring up that I love her again.

Then she can avoid the emotions.

Woot, I will tell you why everything was going amazing until you said "ILY" You were giving her the fantasy divorce idea. You were showing her that you were buying into her idea that you two would get a D and remain FRIENDS. That you two could hang out together, you would talk, and you would be there for her, no matter what. That was why she relaxed.

Now, as far as you, you weren't really ready to give up, you just lost hope. This is why it is important to follow these plans and not your emotions. ACT don't REACT. Get it?

What I would suggest for you is to hardcore Plan A for a while and when you feel like you have almost gotten to the point of giving up again, PLAN B. Toss her out of your life for awhile. Recover yourself and see where you go from there. Got it? Good.

It's VERY difficult for me to act and not react. My emotions like to run wild.

So these few days are just because she wants to be friends, not because there is possible doubt in her mind?

Well she just took off to work, and I'm thinking of making her favorite meal tonight for dinner. It's some Italian wedding soup that her grandmother used to make, I've never tried it but after a lot of digging I've found a recipe.

I'm dropping her car off in a few hours to be worked on, and she took mine since when we both drove to the service place they were closed and didn't have a night drop.

I have the day pretty much to myself.

Before she left, she gave me a number that should could be reached at if I needed her. (We both work in classified vaults, where we can't bring our cell phones.) She has NEVER done that before. And she initiated a goodbye hug and thanked me for the help.

I got news for you woot, everyone's emotions like to run wild. That you are a young man and testosterone can be a powerful emotional trigger makes things a huge challenge too.
You will need to plan A and not talk relationship while in it. She knows what you want (no other men in her life). She isn't willing to commit to that at this point.
Be an attractive man. Be fun. Be the best nondemanding you for a while and then at some juncture give her the most amazing love letter stating your conditions to being married to you (plan B letter) and then send her into exile from the marriage and lick your emotional wounds and rebuild your life and wait to see whether she, in a reasonable length of time, comes back and tells an intermediary she is willing to meet your marital conditions, or not.
You can only control yourself. No one else.
You control how you interact with her in plan A and how you move onward once plan B is implemented.
She probably will not, in plan A, have her epiphany to be the dedicated, loving and communicative wife you need but there is always the chance that she will someday be able to do that.

You need to make sure she realizes you won't be her friend if you get divorced.

Wow. You certainly did not do the right thing by trying to say ILU and suggesting sf with her.

I think I suggested this much much earlier to you, but seriously Woot, what a ww wants is the opposite of this kind of stuff.

One of my close friends, a former bh from here at MB, who actually went THROUGH with a divorce had a ww (now a happily recovered former ww)who was stubborn and said same things. He plan A'd until the end, then he shut the door and realized something was simply not working.

So he changed things. He went ultimate plan B. He began divorce proceedings. He filed for full custody of their baby son (and won). Changed his appearance a bit, doing what I call a "man-over" and changed his attitude. He refused to even see her, did a distant drop off with the kids. Always looked nice of course, from afar, and refused to engage in any small talk or "being friends" with his x.

You see, his ww at the time, wanted that whole "lets be friends" thing because it eases the mind of the wayward. It's the whole secret and desire THE WAYWARD WANTS! They want to feel absolved of their guilt and self loating that a cheater feels. They want to not have friends or family look down on them for trading down with a cheater. So they try everything to get you to be their friend.

Well my friend certainly let her know that 1)she was NOT his friend as an ex 2)that he was moving on with his life 3)no friendly visits, no friendly calls, nothing. 4)that there would be CONSEQUENCES to her actions.

That's big. The consequences part. He never was nicey nice or gave her an inch of feeling ok with anything she did. Like for example, when you wife went to the "spa" and disappeared. He would have called her out and said before he filed for divorce, "hey, what are you doing? Who the heck thinks you really WERE at a damn spa?".

and he NEVER EVER EVER PLEADED. He never told her ILU. He never showed his hand once. From all appearances, his w saw her husband moving on (once he moved from plan A to B/D).

They ended up being divorced for almost a year, when one day he was actually out on a date (I had been so happy actually he'd agreed to go out with this nice girl he'd told me about) and they went to a movie at the mall. As fate would have it, his xw saw him holding hands or on the date with the girl at the mall, and ran up to him crying and saying "how could you" and ran away covered in tears. After all, how could he move on? (wayward fog thinking that the betrayed is always pining for them, wearing sack cloth and in black, in mourning).

The next day she broke up with om, and moved mountains to try to find her way home and he didn't make it easy. He made HER WORK. she followed MB principles.

I am pleased and thrilled to say they are happily remarried, and the children could not be happier too. I am so happy this happened, but without him doing the stark and harsh plan B/D and changing his attitude and mindset, he may have fallen victim to the thing I call "the good guy" syndrome here.

You see imho, there is a fine line between doing a good plan A and not implementing part of the stick of it. You risk being seen as a wimpy good guy moreso than the kind of guy that makes a girl want to chase them.

When you beg, plead, or say ILU, you are showing your hand. Your ww is a wayward of course, and part of the wayward mind is that "feeling" they get around the op. The feel of the chase. Why chase the bs anymore? Especially if there is no challenge to it. The best way to get her to rekindle any feeling to you, is for you to do a plan A, but have consequences to it, and follow up with a very dark plan B and/or a plan D. No begging, pleading, nothing. You present to the world a different dude. A guy who looks better, dresses sharper, has a new style for his hair maybe, dresses a bit differently, and isn't at all in any way or shape moping around crying over his wife being gone.

And the beauty of the situation was, that was what made his xww turn around, was his sudden changes and his standing up to her without any whimpering, whining, or begging or pleading. She had no idea where she stood with him, or if he'd ever even consider taking her back. He became the dude that not only SHE wanted back, but apparently other single women wanted to get to know.

End result was my friend was going to be happy, healthy, and recovered regardless of what ever his ww did or did not do.

That is the difference here Woot between what my friend did, and what you are doing now.

Alright, I think I understand what you're getting at. Almost hard to get ish, but not actually hard to get. Just takes commitment to get.

I still have not been able to find your friends thread, could you be so kind as to link it?

So tonight for dinner I'm making her favorite meal (or trying to) for our four year anniversary. Think this is a good thing to do?

I have two questions that are in the back of my head on how I should approach things:

She is talking about wanting to head back east, around the 28th of this month. Without pleading or begging, how do I make it known that I'd like her to stay here?

The other thing is meeting needs. Specifically sex. I'm fairly certain we both have a pretty strong need for this, and frankly its been a while for me. I think in the book it says that if a need isn't being met, someone will eventually try to seek that elsewhere. I don't want her seeking that need elsewhere, and its an important one for myself as well. How do I approach meeting that need for us? ILY is obviously bad.

Was kind of tough to ask that one...

Its not gonna happen if she isnt in love with you and plus I wouldnt if I were you.. You have no idea about STDs since she has other men.

What about any of the other things I asked?

You can pull out the lines like, "I will not accept a marriage where my wife has a boyfriend," "Married people shouldn't spend the night apart." Etc. Just say what you want to say without love busting(using SD, AO, and DJ), and you will be fine.

Wednesday, for our four year I made her some Italian Wedding Soup, and it turned out quite well. She had fallen asleep, but had asked me to wake her up when dinner was done. She is a PAIN IN THE [censored] to wake up, and is always angry. In fact before she took her nap I asked her "are you going to be nice when I come wake you up?" she said "I'll try."

She wasn't.

So our anniversary dinner got off to a rough start, and the whole dinner we didn't talk much. Then as we were finishing eating the cats came and broke the ice. After dinner we sat down and had some wine and watched a movie together. We both laughed and enjoyed ourselves.

She thanked me for dinner, then asked if I wanted to go snowboarding the next day. I have been itching to go ride a few more times, so I lept at the chance.

The next day we woke up, and headed up to the hills to go ride. We rode all day, and had an amazing time. During our lunch we were laughing and joking and enjoying each other.

On the way back home, we stopped at Cyclegear because we saw they were having their annual festival and I said "Hey wanna stop in and look at suits?" So we went in there, and as part of my anniversary present to her I had set aside some money to help get her a 1-piece leather suit for our trackdays. We found one on clearance, and she said "It seems like a lot of money for just one weekend." and I countered with "Well maybe it won't be for just one weekend. They have plenty of trackdays all summer."

I ended up picking up a pair of cheap gloves that I needed, and overall we ended up splitting the cost 50/50 for the suit/gloves. It was $200 less than I was expecting to spend going in there, so I was happy. On the way back home, she started mentioning that she is going to run out of money shortly. I secretly smiled.

When we got home, even though we were dead tired she wanted to go start breaking in the suit. (New leather suits, you have to wear a few times to stretch them out and make them comfortable) So we decided to go on a trip to a Sonic for some cherry limeade. Turns out its an hour away, if we use the back roads. She wanted to go, so I said alright lets go. We rode there, and next to the Sonic was a Dennys. We were freezing, so we went to Dennys and got hot chocolate and whatnot. We stayed there for about 2 hours just talking and bsing. Sharing YouTube videos and whatnot. Then we rode back. Got home at 2:30am.

Today, I slept till 12. Woke up, my friend wanted to go skateboard. I asked Julie if she wanted to go, and she said give me an hour. An hour went by, and she came out of the shower and said she didn't want to go, she had a lot of paperwork to go through and finances to figure out. I texted my friend back and said we weren't coming (in hindsight, I should have gone without her) then watched some TV and took a nap. Woke up at 6pm. (I was tired. Lol) When I woke up, my wife was in her room with the door shut. I knocked and she opened it and papers were everywhere. I tried to strike up a conversation, but she really seemed like she didn't want me there, but wasn't shooing me away. So I got dressed and asked if she wanted to go meet the neighbors. She declined, so I went and hung out with them for a few hours. I got a text from my wife saying she wasn't feeling to good, and was going to take a nap. I replied "Mmkay, want me to come make something for you so you'll feel better?" and she said "No thanks." And she said "Bonfire tomorrow?" Me: "Sure."

I returned home, she is asleep with the door open. I'm thinking of writing her a love letter right now and placing it next to her so its there as she wakes up.

SOOOO... My questions to yall.

Does this sound like a Plan A? I think her biggest need is spending quality time, and I've been trying my best to meet that. I know I failed at not going out alone when she said she didn't want to. But then I did later in the evening, and I texted my friend saying "dammit, I shoulda gone and hung out with you." I've done my absolute best to avoid Lovebusters, as far as I know, I haven't committed any verbal ones. However I just re-read LoveBusters to make sure that I wasn't committing any, and it turns out that I still might be committing an annoying habit. I have clothes about my room, which she doesn't like. Note to self: PICKUP MY ROOM!

So what am I failing as far as Plan A goes?
I've snooped, both her computer and phone. There is nothing other than generic chit-chat.
We've been essentially joined at the hip ever since she came back last Sunday. She has been open about who she is chatting with whenever I ask, and when I check later she is telling the truth. And it sounds strange, but I don't think that there is an affair going on right now. Call it a gut feeling, and my gut is usually right. I had a feeling that there was something going on with the last two times, and it was dead on. Now its saying the other way, which I really didn't expect.

Do you know what the papers were about?
I would get more technical by installing cellphone spyware. Also install a keylogger. Adulterers can delete texts, logs, emails, etc. A hunch is great but you should go more in depth.

You are in plan A as long as she lives in the house. It means meeting needs but calling out her crap. You are like the bible, a double edged sword. Becareful on DJ and angry outbursts but keep yourself business professional, like a rock.

How to stop her from going on trip? Try pulling a couple spark plugs so truck wont run. Ruin her plans that way. You really cant force her but you can be creative. If she doesnt have much money, this will keep her grounded.

So what say you, what insane methods will you try?

As for the clothes, yes dont be a slob. Be a new you!

Its got a logger.

As far as her truck, I've been racking my brain as to how to do that, yet make it seem like its not me. My wife is very smart, spark plugs pulled and she'll know its me.

EDIT: Ohh, and the papers are all her papers that cover everything. She even went through her original enlistment papers which we both had a chuckle about. They are over 6 years old.

What can I do for a better Plan A?