Its hard when your dreams you had so much faith in and gave you strength get torn away and you feel so lost. Its hard to keep motivated I know.

Eventually, and not to long from now I promise, you will regain that hope that keeps us going, and sometimes we need just to get up in the morning sometimes, as bad memories fade, and you put things and people who hurt you behind.

Like I said before, it doesn't come overnight, but the new life will be stronger and more precious than before, along with wisdom.

Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young was one of my first bands I listened to back when the "Four way Street" double live album came out. It was what I considered a "socially conscious" album of the time. That was right after 3-Dog night was popular. I eventually got into Alice Cooper because of the theatrics though that lined up with my teenager hormones and rebellion, lol. Ah music does have a power if we allow it.

You mentioned STBX not giving you enough time for forgiveness. It takes a long time, and if everything isn't brought out into the open also, that can hamper it too. It took 5 years to forgive my WW for her indesretions and Radial IB years ago, but she never really dealt with her drinking either,other than stop it, so when she did it again, it was back to sqaure one. I wonder how open and honest STBX really was..

Here is a thing I stumbled upon from someone who had a doctorate and it was posted on his wall. It makes a lot of sense.

---------------The Four Agreements-----------------

1. Be Impeccable With Your Word
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

2. Don't Take Anything Personally
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

3. Don't Make Assumptions
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret

Don Miguel Ruiz,(He is a popular Philosopher from Central America, from what little I have read)

I think much of the pain is because we find ourselves outside of our spouses reality and importance, but you gotta remember that is thier perception that is messed up. Such an important and personal place we give to someone else.

Keep taking good care of yourself MJ. You will be inspired in time and this too shall pass.

There was a time when he first left this last time, when there were days when it was extremely hard to stay motivated. Just getting out of bed was hard. But I always had the motivation to get through it, however slight.

I believe all of us that post here have the hope you speak of. We all seem to be fighters on this board. I am pleased to say that I don't see any of us giving up hope for ourselves. We've given up hope for our marriages, but not ourselves. I love that we help each other in this fight. It's people like you, and others on this board, that gives me hope for humanity in general.



I wonder too. Soon after he left, he made the comment one day that "I don't know his heart". How am I suppose to if he didn't share it with me? He blamed me for that. I will take some responsibility for that, but not all of it.

Even when things seemed "o.k." between us, there was still a wall between us with him, always. Only God and the stbx knows why.

Thanks for sharing the 4 agreeemnts with me. Great words to live by, if you want people to trust you. I took note of agreeemnt #2, which is a little easier now that some time has passed, and I have processed more. However, I do need to keep reminding myself of it.



The bolded part I think is very true. Another thing about my stbx, he was ALWAYS just a fair weather friend. I had mentioned to him several times throughout the course of our marriage that I felt this way about him. He didn't take the "in sickness and health" part of our vows seriously.

On to music......

I am dating myself too by saying that I remember Three Dog Night. Their song "Black and White" had an effect on me when I was little.

Here is a song that I use to play over and over again by the Los Lonely Boys when I felt so alone in my marriage. What's wild about that is that when we found MB and were having fun together, my stbx took me to their concert. I felt like I had come full circle and had finally started making my way out of the "hell" they speak about in the song.

Truth is, I am still finding my way out of that hell, but I am finding it.

Here it is...one of my all time favorite songs, and a great song for all of us here, imo......

Heaven by the Los Lonely Boys

"Heaven"

Save me from this prison
Lord help me get away
Cause only you can save me now
From this misery
Cause I've been lost in my own place
And I'm getting' weary
How far is heaven
And I know I need to change
My ways of livin'
How far is heaven, Lord can you tell me

Cause I've been locked up way too long
In this crazy world, how far is heaven
I just keep on prayin' Lord
Just keep on livin', how far is heaven
Lord can you tell me, how far is heaven
I just got to know how far, how far is heaven
Lord can you tell me

Tu que estas en alto cielo,
Echame tu bendici�n
[translated from Spanish]
[You that's in a higher place
Send me down a blessing]

Cause I know there's a better place
Than this place I'm livin', how far is heaven
So I just got to show some faith
And just keep on giving, how far is heaven
Lord can you tell me, how far is heaven
I just wanna know how far, how far is heaven,
Lord can you tell me, how far is heaven,
'cause I just gotta know how far,
I just wanna know far


Thanks for encouragement C.P. If you listen to the above song, I'd like to know if you like it.

Instead of threadjacking PDC's thread, I took a paragraph from Dr. Harley's post to him and brought it over here.........



More and more I've been thinking this myself about my stbx. Even though I still love him, I know he is toxic to me right now. I should be grateful he's not here, unless he had a serious heart change.

MJ,


Anytime I start to second guess my decision to D, or feel I am missing my WW, I will think about her actions that have put us in the place we now are. It doesn't take me long to remember that what I am doing is absolutely necessary for my survival.

I know that in your heart you feel the same way about your stbx, and by spending a minute thinking what he has done to you and your marriage I think you will find that you miss him less.

Kind of a internal LB, and the more that tank gets drained the less you will feel.

Of course I'm such an authority............. could be the worst physiological you can get, I just know it seems to help me.

I think it is natural to miss our spouses, after all they were people that we were in love with, committed to, had kids with, and planned to grow old with. How could you not second guess your past in an effort to fix the mess your in.

And in the time it takes to take in a deep breath you can flash before your eyes what that spouse has done to crush that dream from our reality.

In the logic of our minds it then becomes irrational to miss a person that would cause that kind of harm in our lives.

MJ, that's what is great about plan-B, it forces us to move away from that toxic relationship, and gives us the opportunity to rediscover who we are.

Good post,

Yeah from a natural born "fixer" personality type person, of course I feel guilty and responsible.

But you can't fix stupid, or force someone to live right and healthy.

MJ,

Hope you don't mind if I butt in here.

It was meangful to me also to realize that it is possible for the loss of a relationship to be a gain for my personhood and health for my family. What an enormous judgement and decision to make that the one you love is just too toxic to remain with.

In my empathy for my wife I cannot imagine the weight of the burden she must carry for her loss. In fact I don't think she is now facing the reality of her actions and the devastation she caused. Were she to see it clearly I think it would be unbearable. I think for a "feeling" betrayer, one who comes to realize what they have wrought, the burden can be worse than for the betrayed.

MJ, I know what it's like to still love someone who it is now unhealthy to be with. Press on!

I have a song to share. At the end there are some comments made by the author of the song. This is one that describes where I am at least at times.

Fascist Architecture

Fascist architecture of my own design
Too long been keeping my love confined
You tore me out of myself alive

Those fingers drawing out blood like sweat
While the magnificent facades crumble and burn
The billion facets of brilliant love
The billion facets of freedom turning in the light

Bloody nose and burning eyes
Raised in laughter to the skies
I've been in trouble but I'm ok
Been through the wringer but I'm ok
Walls are falling and I'm ok
Under the mercy and I'm ok

Gonna tell my old lady
Gonna tell my little girls (and boy)
There isn't anything in the world
That can lock up my love again

"That was when my marriage broke up. And that fact broke a lot of things in me. The image 'fascist architecture' came from Italy. It was stuff that was built during Mussolini's period that was a particular style where the buildings are really larger that life and what is supposed to celebrate the greatness of humanity actually dwarfs humanity. And it makes you feel tiny and helpless next to it. And everybody hates this stuff. It seemed to me a suitable image for the things in ourselves; the structures we build that are built on false expectations or pretenses. The things we pretend to ourselves. And then when some catastrophe comes your way, like a marriage breaking up or some other thing, those things crack and you get glimpses through them, the light comes through them. It's not a comfortable thing."
-Bruce Cockburn

Look for the light!!

-pdc

The statement before this one, about understanding and accepting that the loss is benificial to your family I can relate to, but this statement was something also I realized when my WW was deeply addicted and had gone off the deep end. They can become so far gone, into thier own minds and selfishness, that they they might never come back. Of course drug addiction worsens the damage possibilities because of the denial, but at some stage even those with a healthy mind and body must struggle with the guilt of how much they hurt others in thier selfishness, or deny and blameshift. Its truly a battle for the mind.

I knew my wife as a different woman than the one she became. By the time she relapsed I was sure in the ten years of relative sobriety she was never going to get into herion in her fortys. She knew addicts in the past when she was a wild teenageer kicked out of her home. She had known them all through the years and had a friend who was saved that was an ex addict. She counselled others and comforted them away from drugs and to God. She knew Heroin was a bad drug and was allways afraid of it anyways.

Probably the worse part of my pain was that all the years of struggling and support for her and the children, what I gave I thought would strengthen her, and we were valuable enough now.

But she did the rebeliuos angry at God and the whole world thing again, started drinking and kept going until she could not come back. Such was what I thought might happen if she did not seek counsel long ago, but at this point, when I had thought we were through all that and it could never happen to the extent it did, it did.

Sitting on the porch with her when she was dieing of cancer attempting to comfort her and encourage her, I remembered the good things we accomplished together. she was so far gone now anyways because of the dilauden,(100 times more powerful than morphine), pump that was nessesary for the pain of bone cancer in her back, the emphasis was not on me at the time, but the frustration I felt because of her choices and stubborness and pride was still there, on the surface, along with the guilt I felt because I could not save her, not even from herself. I realized at that time even if the chemo worked, and what was left of her awareness might get her to accept a doctors help in restoring her, she was so afraid and unable to admit to herself how far she had fallen. The woman I knew so long ago who would fight for the abused and sick at heart, the people who believed the lies sold to them by others sick and depraved, was gone. Her bravery was gone, the fear had won, she could not come back, even though we hoped and worked to believe it would.

I would never hear "I'm sorry for what I did to our family." Like she did long ago when I left becuase of her drinking and IB for two years. "I am sorry I emasculated you and didn't help with the struggle for finances more, expected you to make a million and compared you to others, that I didn't go to AA, and submit to that authority, as you encouraged me to do kindly so many times" I had allready forgiven her for those things, and was just waiting for the realease of her agreeing with me that they were wrong. That was what had become of me also, I had let to much go in the name of being tough and forgiving, for to long, and now the consequences had come.

If she had at that moment been able to feel what all of us felt, with the intensity of pain we were in, it would have been to much for her. I doubt she would have been able to understand and recover without years of solid support and good therapy mixed with Bible study and Gods grace. I myself am still seeking a healthy balance, and I am attacking things head on, I can't imagine the hell she would have had to walk through. Yeah it truly can be harder in the long run on the WS.

It hard to admit and think about it, but possibbly God was the most merciful for taking her home. Instaed of me selfishly wanting recovery. So yes I must trust Him.

Ok, so last night I was going to respond to a few threads, and started with my own. I typed this long response that took me 30 minutes to get through, and I didn't realize that I had lost my internet connection! So, when I hit the submit button, I lost the whole post. Ugh. The internet connection didn't come back up until I was too tired to start over.

I'm at work now, but I'll get back on here later. I have school and a divorce care mtg today after work, so not sure when I'll get back.

Thanks for all the thoughts you have shared.

And PDC, welcome to my thread. You can share you thoughts and insights with us here anytime. And thank you for sharing the ones that you did.

Welcome to the club, I get so mad that I had shared so much that I could not recall, that I have to wait till the next day, lol. Sometimes its so emotionally draining and I realize also that posting was for me to get something out, which still was theraputic. I am a talker. (Betcha guessed that )

I type maybe 25 WPM which gives me time to put some thought and reflection on what I say also. I am amazed at the clarity from others who type faster than that and post everywhere. Some of my really long posts have taken over an hour to compose. To lose them really frosts my shorts for a day at least.

Putting my thought down here is good therapy, its like form and practice for any activity, and beacuse its so personal, it works way down deep for healthy thinking and communication. I don't have the personel on the spot communication skills that reflect me and my beliefs because feelings get in the way sometimes and I choke. Thats OK, practice makes perfect..

Thanks MJ for reading my stuff, and thanks for being here. Although like me your probably thanking God for this place.

Yeah, I'm kinda starting to feel the effects of the internal LBs in a different way now. Before I couldn't think about them without wrenching pain, and anger. I had to work on forgiveness first. Now, after several grieving stages, I THINK I may be hitting the acceptance stage. Plus I'm not as emotional anymore so I can think and see things a little clearer.





I'm able to see and accept he's toxic for me. My head is winning over my heart, but my heart still hurts.



I've heard this a lot. What I've been discovering is that I still want the same things I've always wanted. I'm still working towards what I've wanted. What I'm having to rediscover is how to change my dreams from doing it as an individual who is married, to doing this as a single person. It's a bit like getting rid of smoking. Some days I don't know how to act.

Thanks for the thoughts SC.

It seems we all agree with this. I wonder if our stbxs and exes think the same thing about us? My stbx use to tell me I was toxic to him.



If she's anything like my husband, she may find enough "feel good" books to rationalize any kind of burden away.



I think she's going to have plenty of time to think about things....




Agreed, and I don't envy anyone who will feel that.




Maybe if you men teach me how to compartmentalize, I could press on a little faster.


Thanks for sharing the song PDC. I understand the author's reference to structures built on false pretenses and expectations. And when my structure came tumbling down, I could see the light through the cracks, and where the marriage, and myself, were weak. It does change of a lot of things.....

C.Pl I can see that you still hurt, and blame yourself for your wife falling. Am I getting that right? If I am, I really hope you can get to a place where you know that you cannot control another person's actions.

I do understand though. I use to blame myself for my husband's actions. It felt easier to blame myself, because then I might have some control over future outcomes, but it isn't so.

I thought my stbx left because I wasn't valuable as a wife. I am valueable, he just didn't value me. Same with your late wife. It sounds like your late wife didn't value herself, which is sad.

And it doesn't matter how much you tried to strenghten her, she had to do it internally to really, truly feel it, and to live in it. If she could have done that for herself, and had you been aware it wasn't your job, you wouldn't have felt that burden. The burden of not being valueable enough. The burden you still carry for her.

I am ALL FOR supporting each other in marriage, but when spouses act out in destructive ways, it's no longer supporting, it's enabling. And when we enable, it's because we have some cracks to look at that's weakening our own structure. I speak from personal experience in enabling, from both sides.

What do you think about this?

I knew my stbx was stopping by the house yesterday to pick up mail. He arrived earlier than I thought, and I was only a minute away from getting out of the door. That was the first time I've seen him since January, I think. I was only in the same room with him for less than a minute.

What gets me is that he knew my car was here, and my son's girlfriend's car, although she wasn't here. AND HE JUST WALKED IN THE HOUSE. He didn't knock. That bothers me.

Evidently, he still feels entitled to walk in because his name is still on the title. But even so, isn't it more than that? It's like he has no personal ethics in dealing with people? He may still have a financial interest in the house, but that's it. He DOES NOT LIVE HERE anymore. It's like walking into someone else's house without knocking. What kind of person does that?

I was able to see some measurable healing again, since I ran into him. In the past when there would be a stbx sighting, I would be physically and emotionally affected for a few days. This time, I think it was more that I was caught off guard than anything. I did still feel discomfort, but not as bad as before. So that's good.

I need some advice gang.

My stbx just e-mailed me and wants to know if I would like for us to get together this weekend to sort through who is getting what with the contents of the house.

I personally would rather not spend my weekend with him at all. I think that would be painful for me. I would prefer he write a list of what he wants, and let me pack it for him, so I don't have to spend anytime with him at all. However, I seriously doubt he'd be that kind.

So, how did the rest of you handle the separation of the contents of the house?

Is it advisable to do this before mediation?

The upside to doing this now, would be that his stuff would be gone. He claims he wouldn't be stopping by the house as much if he had his stuff. That's not why he usually comes by though. He comes by for mail. I have offered to mail him the mail, or drop it off at the front desk where he works, but he refused that offer.

MJ, I can only tell you what I would do in your shoes. In light of the other posts here and those in the last few days, and what I know of you and your situation, I'd flip him the middle finger on this idea. He did ask what you'd LIKE right? Am I close here?

I've no doubt you have an idea of what is his, yours and to be decided on. Get some help, gather up what's his, dump it in the front room.

Get yours away from that room for the time being. Call him, say, its ready to be picked up, get a time to pick up, and let someone you trust stay in the house and you go out at that time so you do not have to see him. Up to you if you want to be nice and box the stuff. Don't let it get broken though.

If there is stuff you are not sure who gets it, keep it seperate. DO NOT let him have a darn thing that is not agreed upon except that which is his. Once gone, its gone. You won't get it back.

CHANGE THE LOCKS and keep the house locked, even when you are in there. His walking in like there was nothing weird about it is just wrong. My stbx did that when he came to MY apartment, (I moved out of the house) and after the first time he just walked in, I made sure the door was locked when he was on his way. It took him forever to figure out that I wasn't allowing him to do that here. He also realizes that my family all have an open door policy here, EXCEPT him. He chose to end that policy not I. Nothing quite like the sound of the doorknob not turning and the body hitting the door full force cause it was expected to open. Its the sound of freedom.

MJ, part of why it is taking you so long to heal over this IS because he is not out of your life, he's just not there. You need to get him OUT. That mail situation? No way in heck would I let that go on, takes a dollar to go online and change your mailing addy with the post office. He should have had it going to his sisters, and now to his new apartment. Make that happen NOW.

I'll have to go back and see when you guys separated, I guess I was thinking it was longer than it might be.

Stop letting him walk on you girl! Tell him he can get his stuff but it will be on YOUR terms not his.

I don't know why he would need to meet with you, personally, unless he couldn't read or write.

Do you have any authority figures that could come with you two while he gets his stuff? People who would be an objective support si the convo doesn't get personal or go south?

Maybe a Pastor or a Lawyer, or even a policeman could keep it all practical bussiness.

My suggestion is insist on the list and let someone you trust go with him to clear out the house.

As far as mail goes can you change his address for him at post office?

Good idea also, and Kudos on that sound of freedom too

Lol NSZ! Trust me, I've been doing that on the inside. After I wrote a response to him, I went back and deleted everything I wanted to say, and just left "I'll think about it and get back to you".



I do like this idea. In fact, I've already done that with some of the stuff I knew was his. I've already boxed it.

I can do a pile of "not sure who's taking it" and maybe take pictures of it for him, so he could pick out what he wanted.

I guarantee you that he is going to be an azz about this.


I've already checked into changing the locks. He can still have access to the house, until and unless I get exclusive use of the home. Once his chit is out, I'm changing the locks anyway. I will bet someone $100 though, he'll break in just to be a pr1ck.

I have decided that I do not care what he wants as far as the mail goes. I'm going to send it to him anyway. I have his address to his sister's now. He can go f himself.




He said he wanted a divorce 7 months ago, and has been gone for 5 months.




I will and will watch the narcissist's veins pop out of his forehead over the thought of loss of control over me.

Thanks for the pep talk and advice NSZ!

Agreed. Let's see how he reacts to making a list. I'm going to request it. Please be on standby for when he flips a lid and I come back asking for advice.



I have been giving this a lot of thought since his request this morning. I was thinking about having a couple of my friends over, IF I were to be here with him. He cares about his appearance, and wouldn't try to abuse me verbally if they were here. He does that behind closed doors. Thus the reason I don't want to be anywhere near him. Even his looks are filled with condescending distain. That's the description given to him by my KIDS.

I think I will have someone in law enforcement, and my friends, be here when he picks up his stuff, IF I have to be anywhere around. I wouldn't put this burden on my son. He can't stand the man either.

I will check to see if I can change his address at the post office.

Just as an aside, the stbx called my son yesterday and asked him if he would celebrate his birthday with him, which is next week. My son doesn't want to, but has a heart like me and is feeling sorry for him. I don't know what to tell him, other than to do what he's comfortable with.

Thanks for the suggestions C.P!

How wonderful that must have been. My turn.