MarriedForever:

I don't badger my wife at all. What exactly were you doing for the year where your husband was working on his issues? I would think that it wold be best if BOTH spouses do this simultaneiously. I would think that BOTH spouses should be able to meet needs without expectations or conditions, not just the MAN.

Cemar, if you wait for her to "go first", you will wait forever. If you believe you are capable of meeting her needs, do so. You will be a better person for it.

On the other hand, if all this talk of mutuality is just a smoke screen for the reality that you have no intention of ever meeting your wife's needs, then there is nothing much to discuss. I do not judge you for whatever decision you make. I am not one to throw stones, as I am not trying to meet my wife's needs either. In my case, it is out of an honest belief that I am simply not capable of succeeding. But I do not pretend that my "reason" is any more justifiable than a flat out refusal. If I were brave, I would free her to seek someone who is capable of meeting her needs.

Cemar,

This is my first post outside of my own thread which is a big step for me. This thread is about 3 times longer than mine but still I feel qualified enough to at least give you my take. First of all, I know what you are going through man. You have a hard time with the inequity of it all, no? I mean its not fair to give, give, give, and not receive right, this is our nature. I think what I've learned pretty much this morning is that we should focus on doing things that make sense, not necessarily what feels just! I see a lot in your comments that feel so familiar in my own thoughts. I have the hardest friggin time dealing with the fact that I'm working really hard and my wife isn't YET! She's fallen asleep both of the last two nights on the couch even though we had plans to read the Romantic Love Workbook. I guess I'm so stubborn that it has taken me forever to "get over it". I have to get over this innate sense of equality here. I can worry about that later, you know? For now I can only control my own actions, not my wifes. I hope this turns out, I really do as I love her dearly and would just die of it ended in D. Despite that fear, my wife not being in love with me, zero SF or affection, I know that is out of my hands in a sense. I just wanted you to know in case it sinks in or feels right is to LET GO. Don't let go of the ultimate goal of love, affection, sex, etc. Let go of what I'm trying to let go of. You do what you know is right, rise above it all and let the chips fall as they may. In fact I'll do it with you man because I'll tell you I've never been more frustrated and sick to my stomach in my entire life, how about you?

Good grief,I never said anything about him meeting my needs because he is the MAN. Do you put words in your wife's mouth also? That's a huge LBER, it's called a DJ.

MarriedForever:

All of the issues in my marriage for me can be summed up with one request, "I want my wife to WANT me". Now I guess that from a LD wpmans perspective, what I just asked for looks to be an impossible task. But, unfortunately, it seems like the BEST way to describe the real problem. What else would I say? It's like when us HD guys ask for our wives to address the problem, we are causing LB's. It's like the LD woman is trying to get us to accept love as a replacement to desire, cause she knows that desire is bascally impossible for her.

P.S.


I thought I remembered you saying you have told her what you want/need her to do to make you feel "desired".

That's badgering. It's annoying, especially if you are so full of LBers that she is hardly staying afloat.

OF COURSE this is the best scenario. This is the IDEAL. All marriages would be great if BOTH people were 100% on board with meeting each others needs day in and day out. MBers works BEST with both parties on board - in fact it only REALLY works with both parties on board.

But the world isn't ideal and marriages break down and somewhere along the line one party checks out. So somehow there has to be a path to get from broken down marriage to happy marriage with both parties meeting needs without expectation or condition.

How does one get there?

ONE PERSON has to GO FIRST and bring the reluctant spouse around to the idea of working on it. Since you are here that person is YOU. It isn't because you are the man, it is because you are here. Have you not seen the threads where women come along and we tell them to sleep with their husbands if they want a better marriage? There have been at least 3 such threads since you've started posting here that I can think of off the top of my head.

So your argument that it is about the man is bogus.

It isn't about the man - it is about the person with knowledge being obligated to use it if they want to change the situation.

Your wife doesn't know about MB, she probably doesn't have a deep grasp as to the relevance and importance of ENs. So it is to YOU to lead by example.

So you meet her needs first and invite her to join you. If she chooses, after a sincere effort on your part, not to join you then you have different options before you - but at least you gave it a shot.

It does work when both people meet needs out of LOVE and a desire to care for one another - but you have to start somewhere.

Vibrissa:

I can understand that we advise HD men to do the UA time. But why on earth are the LD women that come on here advised to try the UA time? There is basically nothing in UA time that meets the need for SF, even if UA time involves having sex. The problem is lack of a sex drive, it is not UA time for the man.

MarriedForever:

You can not tell someone what actions to do to make the other person feel "desired". The way you make them feel "desired" is to actually desire them.

Nobody is going to desire someone who they don't spend enjoyable time with, cemar.

Why don't you just try doing this 100% ? Meet her needs, eliminate LBs, and spend 15-20 hours of UA time with her. And if she doesn't desire you after, well, then you're not out anything.

But what you're doing now isn't working.

Have you chased your wife for SF for the better part of your marriage? Been the initiator?

Ever thought that due to years upon years of this behavior, she has learned that signaling her desire is to submit to your advances?

You can absolutely let her know the things she can do that make you feel desired. If you have been doing all the heavy lifting, she likely has lost the skill to do so on her own.

Oh, and a mopey, grumpy husband isn't attractive. If you think she can't tell, then you've got another thing coming.

So, cemar, I don't think you answered my question: did you remind your wife to kiss you?

Yes - but how does one grow that desire when it is virtually non-existant?

By creating attraction. How does that happen? By spending time together. As you spend time together a woman can find her husband attractive (if he's being attractive to her) thus creating an emotional bond which will transform having sex for sex's sake to having sex out of a desire to connect with someone they love and find attractive.

Time is where you build attraction which stimulates desire.

You seem to be all over reading and studying different sources to understand your point of view - though I question whether you've actually read Harley's stuff.

Have you by chance read Sex Begins in the Kitchen by Dr. Kevin Leman? I suggest you do - it will give you insight into female sexuality.

He's not interested in UA time, and said he stopped taking her on dates a long time ago.

Cemar, correct me if I'm wrong: what you want is for her to rip your clothes off, ravage you, then shut the heck up and go make you a sammich.

Cemar,

Folks have been 100% clear with you and you continue to reject it. You continue to kick at the goads. (Look it up in your Bible!)

The best is if you both go first.

Good is if one goes first.

The worst is if neither goes first and waits for the other.

If you can't have the best, apparently you are willing to settle for the worst by not going first yourself.

You can't get to the best without passing through good.

Cemar, go first. You've wasted two months since I suggested you spend six months meeting her needs, etc. So now, instead of sometime in August, if you started today, the six month clock would run out in mid October.

If you spend another two months complaining, then you delay the potential good and remain with the current horrible.

So what is preventing you from actually doing the Marriage Builder program well enough that you have a real chance of attracting your wife back into a passionate marriage?

It's obvious that what you are doing, complaining and blaming her is not getting you to your objective.

So what is it about your current technique that prevents you from letting go of your desire to prove yourself right and suffering for it?

As long as you are complaining and standing on the idea that you are right and the problem is hers, then you will not get what you want, ever.

You may be right. But what good is that if you are right and your needs still are not being met.

Today is the day to choose, do you want to be right, or do you want to have a passionate marriage where your wife truly desires you?

You only get to pick one. So far, you have not chosen the passionate marriage based on your writings here.

Cemar, I'm not talking out of my neck here.

After all my years of being the SF aggressor in our marriage, my wife's idea of "foreplay" became announcing that she was going to bed.

No joke. I was then left to guess that she wanted to have SF and that I was to immediately follow her and then also initiate. This lead to her feeling rejected when Miss Cleo didn't phone me to let me know my wife wanted SF when she said she was going to bed.

She has been conditioned to signal desire through submission rather than aggression.

Doing nothing will not change her behavioral conditioning toward SF, Cemar.

I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall.

What part of this are you not getting? It's not rocket science.

CEMAR... you are not feeling desired because you aren't acting desirable. Sorry to be so harsh but good God, this is frustrating!

When we counseled with Steve he told us both "it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to make sure your spouse is in love with you. You do that by 1.) meeting ENs and 2.) avoiding LBers and 3.) UA time."

When this is done your spouse will "desire" you, cemar.

ARGH!!! Cemar, do you have OCD? You are so hung up on this LD/HD thing that even after hundreds of posts you cannot seem to grasp this.

It goes like this:

(ENs+POJA+UA time)- LBers = being in love, being "desired"

Can it be any more clear? Look, you are arguing with posters who use this exact formula, are "desired" by their spouses and are "in love" with their spouses. I am one of them so can't figure out why you are arguing about this. Your wife has LD because this formula is not being met BY YOU.

You might be better off putting these things into practice instead of arguing with us. It would be a lot less frustrating for us anyways, LOL.

This is so riddled with DJs I don't even know where to start.