If marriage is just a "piece of paper" as you say, then what is the point of getting married? You don't understand that marriage is very different from shacking up. Marriage is a committment, shacking up is no different from dating. The difference is akin to the difference between renting a house and buying a house. Shackers do just enough to make their current living situation tolerable and buyers invest the necessary time and money to keep the house in good repair.

Living together before marriage is a curse that leads to a much higher divorce rate than folks who never live together. So the fact that you have been shacking up actually makes this situation worse, not better. Shackers develop destructive habits while living together that get worse once the relationship is cemented with a marriage.


Except actually GET married. You didn't do that.


I am sure you think it is "special." but it is not a marriage. But that didn't stop you from cheating on your GF and behaving in a scandalous, unprofessional manner at work.

I would check out Dr Harley's article about shacking up and his book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.


Compatibility Test or Curse?
Living Together Before Marriage

by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.
Reprinted and edited from
Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders



Living together before getting married is a common practice in today's world. People cite any number of seemingly practical reasons for doing so. But almost everyone who has studied these couples has come to the same conclusion: Marriages following cohabitation are almost inevitably doomed.
continued here

You sure don't indicate that marriage means anything to you when you dismiss the committment of marriage that is sealed with solemn vows as the equivalent to a shack up situation. Marriage is a real committment where one stands before God, family and friends and makes solemn vows. That is very different from shacking up. Everything is different in marriage. The attitude is different. Shackers treat their relationships much differently than married people. Sure, some marriages are bad, but shacker relationships are bad as a rule.


kayleeb, I am not saying this is impossible, but it is important you have a realistic understanding of the situation if you are going to turn this around. You are not married, and your current relationship should be treated VERY DIFFERENTLY after you are married if you are going to make it.

I would IMPLORE you to read the book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders so you understand WHY shack up situations are such bad marriages so you can AVOID that pitfalls. The book does tell you how to turn that around. But that is unlikely to happen if you are not aware of the problem.

Youll have to demonstrate a very high level of transparency. Hopefully your future bride has access to your cell phone, email, computer, etc.

Also, to show that you care about her, call burger king or wherever you work and quit immediately, saying:

"Dear supervisor, I am quiting my job immediately due to a very personal matter."

This will help alleviate additional pain.

Get counseling with the Harleys is a great idea.

.Presto.

kayleeb, I think there is a bit of a disconnect in what you're seeing on the screen and what you're "hearing," and what you want to hear.

This website and Dr. Harley's principles are a testament to belief in recovery - personal and, hopefully, marital. MelodyLane makes some very strong - and VERY VALID - points about the difference between dating/living together and being committed in marriage. It is great that you are as committed to your relationship as you say you are; however, there is a fundamental shift in thinking that is necessary for marriage. Don't be defensive, please just give this idea some serious thought.

Please also consider from where many of the posters here are coming: you are able to avail yourself of this discussion board and hear firsthand from those who have been betrayed by the one who was supposed to protect them above all. These voices are speaking for your betrayed fiancee - instead of dismissing them for not giving you enough "atta' boy, look how hard you're trying" pats on the back, give some thought to what cheating feels like when it's inflicted on you. If so many people with firsthand knowledge are advising your GF to move on, think about what that means.

It's not just a walk in the park that you're asking her to take. It is the most arduous uphill battle upon which either of you will embark, and it will be with you and your relationship for the rest of your lives. Sure, you want to fix it and do better and be better, but it's not that easy.

Look, I am all for personal redemption and recovery - just look at my sig. But until you realize the extreme severity of what you inflicted on your fiancee, (and, trust me, it takes a LONG time to understand, and you'll never understand in its entirety - no offense, just the way it is), until you take appropriate steps to address and fix YOU, you are not safe for marriage.

I don't mean any of this to be discouraging. Just trying to get you to think a bit deeper about what everyone here is getting at. You're off to a good start. Please think about what some of these great posters are telling you. (It doesn't get much better than MelodyLane and schoolbus!)

I'm going sit on this for a few days. Thank you. I'm curious what all the symbols in your sig mean... sorry, I'm just still very new. I have put into thought that the best thing for her would be to let her go and I fix myself, but to me that's not an option because I am confident that somehow, there is a way for me to heal and bring her back...something she can't trust anyone else to do and my effects of what I did will scar her in any future relationship, I get that. I just believe we will grow past this, we will love and conquor, and that it all starts with me as the schoolbus entilted.

I will sit on your thoughts for a few days, and I agree about my defensiveness because when I hear people say some things, I see what it was I wasn't really saying or understanding... but that defensiveness comes from people that just want me to let her be. I value all feedback and apologize to anyone that if I got defensive to you, I just understand the damaging effects I have done to my fiance, and I want to do everything in the world to be with her. She is my soul mate, and I believe that. We are not married, but this proves that I have growing up to do and proof to show her that I can change, even if it is 2 years as schoolbus says or more/less. This a journey I want and if she is willing to go with me, then it is one that she wants as well. That I believe if we are moving into counseling together, then she believes in me changing, sees me making effort, and can forgive and not resent. That's why I get defensive, because I feel like she wants to help me, help us, and form a marriage at some point of our lives. For me that's enough, but it saddens me to reachout for support to do right by her, and then some of the feedback implies the possibility doesn't exist and she should run...

Thank you Mrs. Vanilla. I don't need pats on my back, didn't need people in my corner, but I can see why I'm getting defensive; I was hoping for her sake, that allowing me to repair is not a doomed move by her.

That is a heartening post, messeditallup. An open and humble heart will get you far in this. There is hope, and regardless of how the relationship ends up, you will be better for your journey through this.

Here is a link to commonly used abbreviations. Happy reading!

Ok. Newlywed here of 9 months.

I remarried because my former husband (I was divorced in 2003)cheated horribly on me.

Wanna know what I'd do if my FI (now dear husband) had cheated on me?

Besides him having to extract my stiletto from his backside painfully, he would have been limping out the door, hearing a very loud slam and door lock behind him.

And if you had the end result of that "act" that you have described a-la-Billy Clinton-and-Monica-in-the-blue-dress, then YES SIR YOU HAD SEX.

So there's all this unchecked flirting leading up to this. Your pants didn't magically fall to the floor, unless this chick has superpowers. There was WORK to achieve the end result of this type of sex (yea, it IS that) and I am sure before she did what she did with you, there was some sort of physical touching too between you both, so save the innocent act.

I do not see why your FI should continue with the engagement or consider marriage. You don't even consider what you did with the ow sex at all.??? I mean, that is really messed up.

Being engaged IS NOT THE SAME as being married. I have learned this so much in the last 9 months. It's alot more. And I am glad that you have acknowledged that there's room for personal growth and that you would LIKE TO become the type of man she should one day consider marrying.

Right now I feel she is justified and right in ending the engagement and halting the wedding. You have alot to prove to her, and anything at all short of being a total MB convert and transparent and open and honest man, and a MAN WHO CHANGES HIS JOB, will simply not be enough to be the kind of man she deserves to marry.

It's noble you want to change and work on yourself. You've gotten some good information here, but do realize that the choice to move forward lies WITH YOUR FIANCEE and not with you. It is her choice and she should be given love, dignity, and space to decide what she should choose to do as of now.

All I can say, as a woman who has recently married, is that if it were me, I wouldn't do it. I do prefer Schoolbus' idea that two years pass by and you prove your boundaries can change and that you can change and that you leave that job for one which can provide long term stability for a good relationship.

need I say that there's another betrayed spouse on this site who has a ww who works in the restaurant industry too? I guess there's lot of friendships of the opposite sex in those places and without proper boundaries, things like this can happen.

Wish you well, but do give her space and time to make HER decision.

kayleeb or messed it up, name changer dude man!

Sorry I have been gone. My mom has cancer, and I now have to have some surgery myself, so my life is kinda nutty.

One of the things you will find is that people here at MB don't see marriage as a "piece of paper". There's a reason for that. Living together without that legal commitment is kind of like swearing to seal a room against all invaders

and leaving the lock off the door.


That piece of paper is more than that. What happens when you swear formal vows in front of other people is much different than saying to another person, "Hey, let's move in together," and then working out physical logistics. Instead, in a marriage ceremony, regardless of your choice of venue (mine happened to be in the mountains), you formalize that relationship before other people, and to the state, that this relationship is one that has been considered beyond other things - beyond living together. It is one that is declared, holds a legal and moral commitment, and has been made public with the swearing of that commitment aloud - for all to hear and know.

It changes you. It changes your relationship. It changes the way you view that "door". Because not only have you locked that door, you have to do something very active to UNLOCK it. You can't just move out whenever you want - because there is more to the relationship in a marriage...there is the commitment.

Moving in together is really....wait for it....a LACK of commitment. You choose NOT to commit to marriage. Consider that.

Marriage is the OPPOSITE of living together, in that sense. The complete opposite.


The door is locked and sealed, and you vow to defend it against all intruders when you are married.


Living together means that the door

is open....

not necessarily to intruders. Nope.

But it is open because either person wants that door to be unlocked


in case

they choose to just walk away.



So that's why the living-together deal is seen as different than the MARRIED deal. At least here at MB.

You are free to disagree. However, on careful consideration, you will likely find

I am correct.


Schoolbus

messed it up,

Okay, now that the other explanation is over, here are some answers.

The Harleys run the counseling center that sponsors this website. There is a 1-800 number for you to call to get appointments.

You will need to fill out an Emotional Needs Questionnaire, because they ask for that from both parties.

It would probably be a good idea for the two of you to do this anyway, because it is one step in the long recovery process. Know this, too, that EN's change from time to time. These are not static in a person. One month you may value financial support, and the next you find out you are pregnant and need domestic support. Remember that, because no matter what relationship you end up being in, that information and concept can help you.

Right now, on your end, you need to meet your GF's emotional needs, if the two of you have decided to work on the relationship.

For a long time, you need to understand that your GF will NOT trust you, or anything you say, or even if you tell her you love her. It goes with the territory. The relationship will be "show me first" and talking about changes will not work.

Only doing - making the changes - will ever work. And those changes have to be consistent, meaningful, and carried out for a very long time. Because the way to fix this is to change yourself and the relationship in ways that matter.

Follow the MB plan, ask for some time, and do the coaching with the Harleys.

If YOU do the heavy lifting, it goes a very long way to making this work better. She will have to see that work - remember that.


SB