Not the TOC, but an excerpt that shows the book's 4 parts:

http://www.christianbookpreviews.com/christian-book-excerpt.php?isbn=0800731093

Thanks, SC!

Hold, I noticed an assertion made earlier on this thread that only churchgoers would oppose the idea that people are born gay, so I was wondering if I could ask you a personal question: are you a churchgoer?

No, sir, I am not.

I am a hard-headed rationalist. Though I do not share the religious convictions of many, I also oppose the attack on faith that has been popularized by the rationalist community.

In short, I am a conundrum.

While I may not accept the supernatural underpinnings of scripture, I cannot, nor do I believe anyone else can, undermine the wisdom recorded therein.

If you would have asked some time ago, I would have argued for the "born gay" stance. However, it's through continuous and open-minded continuing education that my stance has changed.

This is why I will engage in these types of conversations, not to be correct, but to motivate me to find what the evidence supports, and to examine the factors involved.

Evidence supports the monster post you quote, sir.

Thanks, Hold, I appreciate the perspective. And I identify with being a conundrum.

I admit to not understanding everything about this topic. I do not know when my brother began feeling attraction to males. I do not know what it is like to be attracted to a female. I don't know if it is a "choice" or a tendency or set in stone. I tend to be more.....philosophically complex than to think it's some pavlovian simplcity (i.e. act like that and you are that).

I do know this......if DH came to me today and said "Luri/TB, the reason I have no desire for you, have been distant, blah blah blah is because I am really gay and I have spent 17 years of OUR LIVES lying about who I am....."

I would not spend 1 or 2 or 5 MORE years trying to fix him. I would leave.

So there ya go.

That's fine, TW. I think a lot of spouses would not be prepared to try to overcome this problem, and we have not said that they have to.

Dr Harley (and this forum) only offers his help to those that seek it, not to those that do not want it.

I find this a bit insulting, though. Nobody on this thread has argued "act like that and you are that". I hate to see arguments simplified to the point of distortion...and then to see the line that you are "more philosophically complex" than the "pavlovian simpletons" whose arguments (that were never made) you reject.

I'm not trying to be insulting, and maybe I should just bow out since I cannot fully explain exactly why this particular topic triggers me....a lot.

But I will say that I have spent much of the past several years of my life riding down the alcohol laden razor of mea culpa....and if my DH told me he was gay and the response was "poor closeted hubby; he just needs help," I would be royally ticked off.

That probably makes no sense since I can't be more specific, but as I have said before, it's always interesting which sins we rush to assist and and which ones mar us forever.

It's also upsetting b/c I know myself to have said many positive things about 99% of everything in the variety of books I have read related to this site, but one very personal trigger.....and well....

That's an awesome post, HHH, and I agree 100%. Folks have tried - and failed - for years to prove there is a "gene" that causes alcoholism. It would seem there is one because it tends to run in families. It sure runs in my own family and I am a recovering alcoholic. But what also runs in my family are very distinct character traits that are, no doubt, passed from generation to generation. So we have no way of knowing for sure.

Nor is it relevant how a person acquired such traits, because just having a specific trait does not mean one has to act on it. I may have been "born" an alcoholic [and maybe not] but I haven't had a drink in 26 years. Nor do I desire a drink. I have otherwise trained my brain to live without alcohol. I see no difference between homosexual desires and alcohol desires. It's just like anything else.

But what if he wanted help? No one can FORCE their "help" on anyone against their will, but would you deny him that help if he wanted it? Would you tell him he is damned to the life of a homosexual whether he likes it or not?

I often wonder where I would be today if someone had told me that when I realized I was an alcoholic? That I could "never change;" that I was just born like that. What kind of a person would try to convince me that I could never change if I wanted to? The kind of person who cares more about an agenda than a human life, that's who.

TW, what if the events unfolded more as they do when a spouse has an affair.

What if you discovered that your H was having a same-sex affair (or some degree of same-sex involvement) and when you confronted him, he said NOT

"I'm really gay and I have spent 17 years of OUR LIVES lying about who I am" but

"I'm sorry. I was attracted to him and yes, I've been having an affair, but I don't want our marriage to end. I don't want to go with him. I don't want to make a life with him, I never did. I want to stay with you. I was enjoyed having something exciting on the side but I love you and the children, and I don't want our marriage to end. Please don't leave me."

(In other words, pretty much what my H immediately said about his by then 2-year affair with a woman.)

Can you see yourself possibly thinking about what it would mean to end the marriage - the hurt to the children, the loneliness for you, the hurt to the wider family - and can you see yourself thinking about the fact that you did love each other deeply once, for a long time, and that your marriage was at some point built on genuine love? Can you see yourself asking whether you could try, just for a while, because you owe that much to your children? Can you see yourself reluctantly, with a huge amount of hurt, and with disbelief, giving your marriage a chance because he begged you to, and because you would do all you could to protect you children? Your knowledge that your marriage was once real might give you a hope that those feelings can be brought back. You don't know, in your grief, how it will be possible to overcome this, but you do love your H, you definitely love and would die for your children, and your H says he loves you and begs you to try.

Can you see yourself Googling mariage advice and finding Marriage Builders? Can you see yourself perhaps asking your H to counsel with the Harleys? Can you see yourself taking just a few steps towards rebuilding, even though you never thought that you would stay in this event?

Well, that's where MB might be able to help your marriage - when you are both desperate to try and when you both want to avoid the carnage of divorce.

I never thought, until it happened to me, that I would want to stay for one second and repair a marriage after an affair, and yet here I am. You might feel the same if your H begged you not to leave because of a discovery, and, thank God, Marriage Builders would be here to help you. People here would not say "ditch him; he's gay". Well, some would, but many wouldn't, and Dr Harley wouldn't.

Please remember Marriage Builders is here if you ever face that situation.

Actually, I see a lot of parallel bet. the idea of homosexual desire/activity and the alcohol thing. My bio mom is an alcoholic...and that increases the likelihood of me having that tendency....but that doesn't mean I was born an alcoholic or that I have to choice but to "embrace" my addictive tendency.

You make a very good point. Very good.

However, if I had a spouse who confessed to being homosexual....recovery from that type of sitch for me would mean that HE wanted ME....and only me, in every way. in the same way that an alcoholic who just is suppressing the urge to drink isn;t truly in recovery, a gay person who just chooses to grit their teeth, stay married, and suppress their feelings wouldn't be enough for me.

It would be like me staying with DH and just making myself stay away from the OM out of sheer force of will, but not really wanting my DH.

I don't know if that makes sense.

I agree with you, however, that is a false dichotomy. It is not either or. Just as an alcoholic can learn to live a happy, rich, full life without alcohol, a man with homosexual desires can live a happy, fulfilled hetero marriage. For some reason we have adopted the false notion that if a person has any homosexual tendencies at all, he is therefore, a homosexual even though he has shown hetero tendencies in his past. That is simply not true, nor is it rational because if homosexual leanings define a person, then so can heterosexual leanings.

TW, you would do well in discussions to stop distorting positions to the point where you characterise something that has never been said. It just ticks me off when someone caricatures the work I and others do on here in that way. When on MB has anyone EVER said "poor" ANYTHING about a WS or a spouse who is not putting his full efforts towards a marriage?

Yes, we would say 'he needs help", in the same way that a man like my H, who put all his energies towards outside factors and not his marriage, needed help. He needed the help of a kick up the backside, firm boundaries about what I would and would not tolerate, exposure, and public disgust at what he was doing. He needed "help" to see where his freebie sex with his skanky OW would leave him when the thrill of the affair died after I left him. He needed "help' to see how his children would shun him and how he would end up alone.

Do you really believe that people here would suggest you go easy on him?

Easy with a hammer, perhaps.

Again, I'm not sure that characterizes any responses, here.



I don't think it's the end of the world to personally disagree with some of what Dr. Harley says, Luri. I mean, I took a look at the opening of Defending Traditional Marriage and already saw some things I think I disagree with. And in this thread, I think the temptation has been really really strong for people to assume Dr. Harley is saying one thing when he's actually saying another.

Nothing wrong with talking it over.

Of course, it's hard to talk things over when you're holding out information on us. Nobody ever seems to let me get away with that anymore.

But that wasn't SugarCane's scenario, was it? SugarCane's scenario was someone who had a homosexual experience, not somebody who considers themselves to be gay.

And that question is at the heart of a lot of the disagreement around here. Do homosexual experiences make someone gay? Do heterosexual experiences make someone straight?

Look again real closely at SC's two possible responses from the husband in the scenario. In one, he says he is gay. In the other, he does not say that.

Sorry, TW, but recovery from an affair (or other involvement) NEVER means "HE wanted ME....and only me, in every way". Not at first, and not for a long time. The sad reality is that he wants his affair partner (or forums, or whatever) for a long time, as I'm sure you can remember. Only by focusing HARD on his marriage and enforcing rigid NC can the feelings of wanting somebody else go away, over time. If you make that demand at the beginning then you are bound to be disappointed.

What is she not being honest about?

Okay then......there have been times in my M when this has been the big dark fear that keeps me awake at night. I'll never ever know, even if I ask.

Funny.....when I confessed my A to DH in 2006, I said a lot of what SC mentioned: how terrible it was, how I wanted DH, how sorry I was, how I let my own selfishness and unhappiness dictate my choices in a terrible way.....

DH could have left. I had a couple of mutual friends who thought he should have left. The issue then wasn't whether it would hurt the kids or make him lonely...the issue was that I had made myself a tramp. Yes, he stayed, and yes, I hope I have made the right kind of amends. But nothing has ever been the same....and most of that is because of how raw I still am at times over the fact that I was actually capable of doing that.

The reason I will never ask, never probe too deeply, do my darndest after the recent trigger to forget this fear is because I DON'T want my children to hurt, to have a broken family, for our families to go through that, to be alone. And I messed up first....I think. I guess it depends on how you view mess ups. My kids were a baby and a toddler when his mess up happened....if it is considered a mess up. maybe not.

I know sin is sin regardless of gender or "flavor." I just wonder sometimes....if I had shared more of this....would it have made a difference? In my M? In.....I don't know.