Agree. Why are we placing an extraordinary super standard on recovery from a homosexual affair that does not exist in any heterosexual affair? Again, one unique standard applied to homosexuality and not to heterosexuality. That reflects an agenda rather than critical thinking, IMO.

I don't understand what any of this means. Can you be more specific? What is the "deep, dark fear?"

That the reason Dh doesn't desire me, the reason he married me, the reason he decided he wanted to date me, the reason he looked at porn and chatted with people who weren't female all those years ago.....

Is because he struggles with whether he even wants a woman. And that if he hadn't needed to be married to a woman because of the strict denom he was a minister in.....he wouldn't have ever married me.

And that even if that was true.....would it even matter anymore?

So now you know.

The "reason" being he is gay? Do you know any of this to be a fact? Or is this a guess on your part? And if it were true, of course it would matter. How could it not?

I don't know any facts. Maybe it's just speculation. maybe it's just a struggle he got over. Maybe It's just not stereotypical "guy" behavior and I am too narrow minded. Maybe I am still grasping for some reason that will keep me from not being good enough.

Maybe it does matter. Or maybe it did matter until I cheated.

Then what is your plan? Are you tempted to blame his homosexual tendencies for your affair? I know I would be tempted to do so - if I were you and I was allowed to BS myself long enough. And I am a good BS artist, too! Just not good enough to get away with it for long.

I was just thinking how I would be tempted to play that in my head if I were you. It would be much easier to "speculate" about such a thing, because if the truth were known, it might not be true at all, and there is the end of my blame game!

Not saying you are doing that, but that is sure what I would do in my own wayward days. Sure would be tempting!

TB, are extreme precautions in place to make sure he doesn't do it again? Is he completely transparent with you?

My A was all on me. 100%. Even if he had become a Chippendale and started a fling with Clay Aiken, my A would still be all on me.

The other stuff was a long time ago. I get paranoid from time to time.

Not good. Focusing on the present and not the past is a much healthier thing.

I would think that extraordinary precautions and complete transparency would go a long way toward reducing that, though.


That's true, but avoiding doing what is necessary to establish trust is not healthy. Avoiding finding proof for yourself is not healthy. Hope is not a plan, and hope alone can be very dangerous.

I had a few minutes to be bored today and look up some things about this issue.

Is sexual orientation a choice?

For most people, sexual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Some people report trying very hard over many years to change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual, with no success. For these reasons, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation for most people to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed. People don't choose their sexual orientation; they can of course choose the kind of a life they want to live.



Can therapy change sexual orientation?

Even though homosexual orientation is not a mental illness and there is no scientific reason to attempt conversion of lesbians or gays to heterosexual orientation, some individuals may want to change their own sexual orientation or that of another individual (for example, parents seeking therapy for their child). Some therapists who undertake this kind of therapy report that they have changed their client's sexual orientation (from homosexual to heterosexual) in treatment.

Close scrutiny of these reports shows that many of the claims come from organisations with an ideological perspective on sexual orientation rather than from mental health researchers. Also, the treatments and their outcomes are poorly documented and the length of time that clients are followed up after the treatment is sometimes too short to be a true reflection of the outcome. In other cases it has been shown that individuals can be assisted to live a heterosexual lifestyle, but that their sexual orientation remains unchanged. In other words, their pattern of arousal to members of the same sex does not alter.

The Australian Psychological Society acknowledges the lack of scientific evidence for the usefulness of conversion therapy, and notes that it can in fact be harmful for the individual. Changing the sexual orientation of a person is not simply a matter of changing the person's sexual behaviour. It would require altering the emotional, romantic and sexual feelings of the person and restructuring self-concept and social identity. Although some mental health providers do attempt sexual orientation conversion, other practitioners question the ethics of trying to alter a trait that is not a disorder and that is extremely important to an individual's identity.

http://www.psychology.org.au/publications/tip_sheets/orientation/

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WlqDd5uAu9kJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_Gallagher+institute+for+marriage+and+public+policy+wikipedia&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

http://cgi.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=19536


There's also an interesting video on youtube with Dale Carpentar and Dr. Harley

And finally (from the American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Psychiatric Association):


In December of 1998, the Board of Trustees issued a position statement that the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as "reparative" or conversion therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation (Appendix 1). In doing so, the APA joined many other professional organizations that either oppose or are critical of "reparative" therapies, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, The American Counseling Association, and the National Association of Social Workers (1)...

In the past, defining homosexuality as an illness buttressed society's moral opprobrium of same-sex relationships (2). In the current social climate, claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder stems from efforts to discredit the growing social acceptance of homosexuality as a normal variant of human sexuality. Consequently, the issue of changing sexual orientation has become highly politicized. The integration of gays and lesbians into the mainstream of American society is opposed by those who fear that such an integration is morally wrong and harmful to the social fabric. The political and moral debates surrounding this issue have obscured the scientific data by calling into question the motives and even the character of individuals on both sides of the issue. This document attempts to shed some light on this heated issue.
The validity, efficacy and ethics of clinical attempts to change an individual's sexual orientation have been challenged (3,4,5,6). To date, there are no scientifically rigorous outcome studies to determine either the actual efficacy or harm of "reparative" treatments. There is sparse scientific data about selection criteria, risks versus benefits of the treatment, and long-term outcomes of "reparative" therapies. The literature consists of anecdotal reports of individuals who have claimed to change, people who claim that attempts to change were harmful to them, and others who claimed to have changed and then later recanted those claims (7,8,9).

Several years ago, I was involved heavily with a homosexual ministry. It was a ministry that reached out to homosexuals with the message of the Gospel, gave food, shelter, and medical care as well. You might think that all is well with these groups of people thinking its just a normal orientation that some are wired that way. My friends, psychology groups years ago classified homosexuality as a disorder of the emotions. The only reason it isn�t today is because of the advocacy groups out there trying to make it normal. Some psychology groups today still label it a disorder while the largest has rescinded that order.
Contrary to popular opinion, scientists have not discovered a scientific or medical cause for homosexuality. There is nothing biological that makes someone swing to homosexuality. Some scientists looked at gay cadavers attempting to see if there was a link and there was� but they failed to compare the same findings to the population as a whole. Some of those gay cadavers did not have the same brain sizes as others. I forgot the exact study but you can find it online if you search hard enough.
One of my best friends was gay and he ended up getting HIV where it mutated to AIDs. By the time the Magic Johnson fiasco went down where he contracted HIV, my friend was already doomed. He ended up passing away but he didn�t die gay. In fact, several years ago, he became straight as can be. He ended up falling in love with a woman but unfortunately due to his illness he couldn�t have sex obviously unprotected so they had no children. He told me that years of abuse had left him looking for attention and he just happened to find it with a man. This man gave him this kind of emotional needs fulfillment and so he fell in love with a man. He felt it wasn�t biological but rather emotional.
He became a Pastor a few years before he died. He preached that there is forgiveness in Christ�s name. He preached that we shouldn�t avoid homosexuals but rather encourage them to come to church! He said there is no way someone is born gay� Because he was attracted to girls in middle school but because he was so unhappy a man came along� he fell in love with a man.
So I don�t think people are �born� homosexuals�. I think it�s a choice. Just like people who commit adultery are insane but its still a choice. It becomes an addiction just like anything else does.

k_t,

It is depressing that after hours of posts pointing out that Dr Harley only offers his help to those who are married and want to stay married, and who do not want to abandon their marriages in favour of same-sex relationships, you continue to post excerpts from papers discussing whether sexual orientation is a choice and whether it can be altered.

The men who consult with Dr Harley have lived in a heterosexual marriage. They married because they were in love and were loved. They have had sex with their wives and they usually have children, yet you seem to want to prove that they are incontrovertibly homosexual and that it is futile to help them with their marriages. These are not people whose homosexual orientation "emerged in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience". These are men who have loved and had sex with women, and who want to restore their marriages. "They can of course choose the kind of life they want to live" and they choose marriage. You, for some reason, don't seem to want to allow them that choice.

Exactly. Who cares what those advocates preach? Not me. Science makes earth-shattering "discoveries" all the time, only to have another "scientist" come behind them and prove them wrong. Look at history folks. Science evolves.

For that matter, why do we depend on "science" as the absolute authority of what is true and what is not? More science is skewed by the dollars behind the research than not. "Pure" research is rare these days and I know of only one person who has all the knowledge about creation.

I'll take real-life experience every time, not some braniac who limits himself to the "facts" that support his theory. It's just like "experts" in litigation. You can find experts for just about any theory you want to prove for the right amount of money.

People (especially professionals) who speak up against the opinion that people are born gay will almost certainly be persecuted these days and I admire them for their courage. Dr. Harley is not the first and certainly won't be the last to be vilified by haters. I'd say he has touched a nerve and good for him. In fact, it's almost comical to watch because it's so predictable.

I have a cousin who is gay. He dated girls all through high school. I feel really sad for him because he is clearly confused and lost. His life is a mess. He once admitted to my husband that he knows it's morally wrong but he doesn't WANT to change, which implies that he has a choice.

I guess I don't understand why this thread was even started on Marriage Builders, or maybe I do.

Here's another good video.

Locking this thread. We're done here.