That's awesome. That brought a huge smile and giggling. Thanks.




Wow....hope your son doesn't see that, just like I hope my daughter doesn't see it either. Waytards suck.

Hmmmm...I wonder if she didn't post the pics because then her friends may comment on what a beautiful family she has, a family she is destroying. If she talked about you, or your son, she may have to explain herself at some point. I suspect it's easier for her to hide the family she is leaving.



Agreed. Thanks for the poem itsa.

Edited to add: It is a beautiful world to me because there are still decent, caring, honest people in it, just like you.

My son's gf put this ringtone on my cell phone and tied it to my stbx's number.....

You're Pitiful by Wierd Al Yankovic

Thats one of the many reasons I am here, I had to find out what went wrong, and what I did, and come to grips with it before I moved on. I came here in bad shape, after WW was allready passed. and doing a search on "marrige, alcoholism, depression", and found one of Dr Hs articles. It was the truth as I have allways seen it. I am much better now but God is not through.

Remember that the gravity of what he did to you, compared to what you might see you did to him, is important. There is a reason why we give weight to ENs, like the most important ones so to say. Think of this..

"So, besides that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

Much the same as Mrs Lincoln, in the shock she wouldn't even be able to be objective.

If you told him your most important needs, and he pick out those to ignore, you will get hurt. In my case the marriage lasted way beyond her ignoring mine, even though she took care of the children and cleaned the house, and occasionally slept with me. We never dealt with her addiction, lack of respect, and lieing and cheating in an up-front honest way. This will wear you down over time.

Marriage is an all in deal, a buyers game. You give your whole heart to it because thats how it works, whether you like it or not, and you can't get around it. The vows we take before God should not be any surprise to us that thats what it is, its a higher calling, and everything you do will effect each other. When one goes off the reservation so to speak, they drag the other one with them, and down also.


I also allowed myself to be put in the position of thinking I had to earn them. Much like the Wizard of Oz, when he told dorothy to get the broomstick, it was supposed to be an impossible task as He put her out of his sight.

Supporting someone who raises the bar over and over again for selfish reasons eventually takes it toll on them. It hurt those with a true heart and intentions, and makes them think they have failed. It is quite possible that we can become so subserveint to thier impossible tyranny, that we think everything we do was wrong. " Oh damn it I didn't take out the garbage last night, I hope she doesn't take off before I get home!"

It takes time to process it all.

You will see over time what you are guilty of, and I am sure it didn't compare to his abandonment. Damn! if I could have gotten my Late WW to listen to anyone it would have been a victory. I am learning that was not my fault either, some people just won't listen.

How about this one.."You can lead a Wayward to MB, But you can't make them think" You can substitute God for MB, lol same difference, 6 of one half dozen of the other, blind in one eye can't see out of the other....Ok Im gettin silly.

I think of how I failed my Late wife also, and i am prone to guilt and an overblown sense of responsibilty, a fixer, a supporter, but it all come back to the fact that others can see but I sometimes am blind to, that I did all I could do to help her, and I could not if she refused to be honest with herself, have had a honest relationship where things were dealt with in truth.

Its OK that I am pissed at her for sticking her head in the sand, and myself for enabling her, and not listening to my gut feelings at the start.

Its all gonna take time to deal with MJ, I know its not fun, but through the pain is wisdom, much sought after wisdom, which will be very preciuos to you I promise.

It seems you have had a long, hard road to travel. I feel the heaviness of your struggle with all of this, and believe you when you say you've made some way with it. I can't imagine what it would feel like to recover from a broken marriage, when the spouse has passed away. In some ways, I feel my spouse has passed away as well. It feels like he died......



Ah, my head spins when I even think about this. All I ever wanted was the truth about things. My stbx would drive me crazy by saying things like, "whose truth is it?". Drove me insane and that's why I'm still searching for it.



I believe you. I do appreciate what I've learned so far. I'm pretty sure when I sort myself out, someone out there is going to be one lucky guy.

Mopey ~ I was just browsing the forums and came across this thread...I had no idea this was you!

I am so sorry to hear the turn of events. Sometimes the definition of recovery IS D...you will be better than fine but still, I am sorry you are going through this.

And congrats on being a grandma! THAT is so exciting!

(((Mopey)))

Lol Im right there with ya MJ, "Well God says...." At first I looked at it as a freind who was sharing the truth, and maybe even a challange to grow. Well its to bad she played the God card, I had allready lived through that as a Son, to a Dad who only saw things his way also. I knew how to survive, and even think, while being put through that wringer of guilt and servitude. It made me very passive-agressive, except for the times I would plead and pray with her for change, as I kept on totin' that barge, liftin' that bale, and she witheld the truth on what she really wanted from life, or expected from me. Oh she was quite a prize she was, her freinds used to get mad at her and call her "movie star!"

Yeah I just survived that one MJ, you got that right. she wasn't looking for a partner, she wanted a servant, as it ended up.

See I had a plan when we got together, both times. I would work and go to school, as much as i could, so we could get above the poverty level and we could both have carreers. She could work too right? She was very smart and talented and liked to help others, she could get an education in the mental health field, become a counselor, I wanted that for her. at least she could get a job and help with the bills, and see if she advanced there. I was all for her getting out and living, it would make coming together again at night even sweeter.
But she could not be that structured or disiplined, as a matter of fact, if she got any job, it was to be a cocktail waitress, because she could not do dinner or banquet, the trays were to heavy. Ok, 5' 10", 160 lbs and very physical, hmmm.. I wonder also, why was it whenever she got a job, it turned into an emotional issue with all the co-workers. yeah you can imagine the worse, it probably happened.

To combat that problem I decided to work 24-7, sometimes up for days in a row, trying to get a business going. Her reward to me for that, was in the 3rd year of reconciliation after we moved around her church, and she had not drank, was to go home and crawl in the bottle, after I pleaded she be careful because, "we both know how it can get there". Thats was the beggining of the decline in our marriage, all the hopes and determination that we would never seperate slowly started to fade away, until she relapsed 6 years later.
Smoke and mirrors, gaslighting and blame shifting, at one time I was imperviuos, but I believed the bullcrap again, and put on her yoke. What was supposed to be a new start at her church and with God, turned into the same old crap, different excuse this week, and who cares how it effects others.

Smoke and mirrors,

Yeah like I said, she played the God card, My dad did that when I was a kid, it drove me away from God, as I saw him as a taskmaster. But I still held on that maybe God wanted me to be free, and when I realized at 17 that God wanted me to live free from peoples fears and emotions, even our own, I thought that everybody understood that. Esspecially the Born again Christians. Maybe some do, but its a dangerous assumption that they all do, that was a lesson hard learned that won't be forgotten.

Im learning to forgive but also understand the crappy things that happened, and how they affected the family and me. Someone somewhere convinced her that she could have her every desire, and that they were all good for her, just because she felt them, that was the criteria for wanting them. She went all the way to selfish for the big hurrah. As I see how she used God to put some sense of holiness into her plans, and didn't give over fully everything to him, it answers my question about why God didn't work for her, all her railing about how people didn't understand God and how she rammed Him down peoples throat, was accually her not beliveing Him yet, and wanting to see a miracle, and from her hands no doubt.

Like a friend in the church said, when I gave him the story, who had known my wife and our family for years, he chuckled, "She wants to crucify you", with a crap eating smile on his face. I'm sorry, I was never trying to be Jesus, not for anybody, I allready knew I was not up to the job.

The truth. "whos truth?" well I still am sorting that out myself, and God is helping me understand, and remove the lies from my memory of our "Christian" marriage. Its the worse thing when someone uses God to lead His children astray. It is better that you tie a millstone around your neck and be thrown into the sea. But God speaks the truth if we choose to hear it, nobody can change that, no matter how they try. No matter how your WH was a mindtwisting manipulator. The truth allways stands and stays the same.


Thats what I have been sayin silly

Actually, CP, I think you said it quite well:

This has been my experience, too. Let me put it on a parallel track. Maybe it will make more sense that way.

Many AA members I know talk about how they felt like they were giving up their "best friend" when they first stopped drinking. Alcohol to them had become their support, their solace, their solution. When they stopped drinking, they too, felt a sense of grieving.

The process of withdrawal is similar, whether it's from drugs, alcohol, or another person.

The AA's usually tell of how they would "white knuckle" their way through the early days, fighting the urge to drink.

And then one day, they would have a singular moment: "Hey, I haven't thought about drinking all day!" Or even, "I haven't thought about drinking in a number of days." Breakthrough!

Even recovered alcoholics with years of sobriety under their belt will admit to thinking of alcohol from time to time - no matter how rare. But those thoughts go quickly. And even more importantly, they do not act on those thoughts.

So it goes too, with divorce. At first we are raw and it feels like every nerve is exposed. But as time passes and we find we don't die from the change, our thoughts and actions turn to different things. And our grief fades, replaced by other things.

Like alcoholics, we are never "cured" of our connection to the divorced person, but we recover. Sometimes we just need to give time time.

Thanks M.F. Would you believe it's been 8 months since he I got his last speech, and I still feel in shock? I honestly believe the New Age religion he's studying has a huge impact on his mindset, which started during his individual counseling awhile back. It has been one loooong nightmare for me.

I'm just stunned that he could hurt me like this AGAIN.

However, I do have the precious grandbaby coming, and I will cherish these times, as best as I can.

I'm glad you found me. It was nice to hear from you. I miss you guys.....

Btw...M.F., I forgot to mention that I am thrilled that you're marriage has progressed as far as it has. I am so very happy for you and your family. I know MB works, and I'm glad it did for you.

Yes, it's going to take some work washing all the bullcrap off me as well.



I think one of the reasons I feel so sad is because my stbx is following the same belief of "do whatever feels good". He has this belief that if something takes work, it's not meant to be.

In the New Age stuff he's studying, it has taught him that "everything happens as it should". So, if he doesn't want to be selfless in a marriage and decides to divorces, well then it "should be". I can think of alot of things I "should" do and call it "meant to be".



I sure am hoping so. Last I heard, men that leave their wives for greener pastures, aka other women, and don't "want to do the work", are considered pond scum in my world. Holds "true" for me anyway. Hehehe...his new religion has "no right or wrong". Must be nice eh?



Thanks C.P. I think we'll both be better than fine one day soon.

Yes, it feels like withdrawals, and bonds breaking as well.

I could actually compare my stbx to a bottle of booze. He was just as damaging to me.

I cannot wait until the day comes where I don't think about him at all. He has hurt me so bad, I hope that happens sooner rather than later.

Time for the serenity prayer I guess...

Thanks for the analogy Fred.

I was looking for something in some old e-mails of mine, and I came across an old e-mail exchange between my stbx and I.

The e-mail explains why I am probably still in shock over my husband leaving me. The e-mail was written about 9 months before he said he was leaving.

The set up:

The exchange started with him copying me on a letter he sent to a group of guys from a christian church, that he'd just gone on a personal healing retreat/river trip with. I was a part of the women's group, so I know what he experienced there.

In response to him copying me on the heartfelt letter he wrote to the guys about his trip, I wrote to him this:

[M.J.]

Wow. That was a deep letter. I stopped turning the crank to take the time to read it, and digest it.

It brought out several emotions in me. The first being a sense happiness over feeling from your words, your own sense of peace that I felt you were feeling. At least, that's what I picked up. A sense of calm and and confidence for the future.

The other, no so pleasant, feeling was my own fears welling up inside of me, and is lingering heavily as I write this. When I got to the end and read between the lines of how the guys "have your back", and sensing how great that made you feel, I felt sadness over not feeling that you'll have my back, if I ever come around the bend into danger. I'm sad that you haven't had my back, and working to shake that, because it's in the past. Trying to concentrate on what's happening now, but the fear I feel over your comments from a short time ago still linger. I need to trust that God has my back, but it would feel warm, cozy and safe, it I KNEW in my heart that you did too.

Honestly, I thought it was a great letter. Very moving and reflective.

Love..........

[End of my response]

[STBX's response back to me]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Both comfortable and uncomfortable.

Thanks for the encouragement in saying my letter has depth.

I understand how you can fear me not having your back going forward. I have not done a very good job in the past of being reliable in some areas. I hope I�ll be able to prove this is no longer the case going forward.

Part of them �having my back� is a lack of condemnation over the past, not ignoring it though. Their recognition of my sins also includes pressure to move into rightness. The goal being to help build up a �new� man.

We�re all broken and fall short. All of us have a story. Every man in the group drew a line in the sand when he nailed the �old� man to the cross.

I�m not saying this as any sort of defense of the harmful things I�ve done. I�m trying to explain that them having my back doesn�t just mean I get accolades for good deeds. It also means I allow correction and may expect to hear things I don�t want to.

Love you too�

[end of e-mail]

After that e-mail, I was dealing with the emotional and physical upset with the hysterectomy that I just had, plus my mother was sick in the hospital and died a few months later.

However, it seemed he started changing in a more distant direction from me after that. I was mired in pain from what I mentioned above, and maybe he just couldn't handle it?

All I know is that it would be nice to know what really happened in his head, to help me make sense of this. I'd like to put "why he bailed" to rest.

I can understand your frustration, but as allways, all I can do is quote from my own experiences.

When my wifes Dad died, I supported her even more than ussual emotionally, going after her and comforting her every way I could, assureing her He was home with God, and that she was an awesome daughter, (Which she was). She had made sure via the phone that her dad was taken care of, had an apartment, and we had given them a car also to make his last days comfortable. He died at home in his home state, but had been offered to come to our house of course.

During that time I expected anything to happen, including when she went to his home town to deliver the car we gave them, to get sucked into drinking by her alchy family. I was prepared to pick her back up if it happened, and be understanding if she fell apart. She loved her family deeply, reguardless of there shortcomings. Our life was different from thiers, and God was our source and our rock we were building our life on, individually and corporatly.

We had DD12, DSs 7 and 5, We all took turns taking care of them, my Mom came down and spent her vacation helping while I worked, we all prayed every night, and me and W talked every day while she was up there. I wouldn't of thought of doing it any differently.

She remained sober the whole time, and I took the time to build her up about it after she came home and it came up. I told her I was not surprised, that was the woman God made her to be.

Internally it was a stressful time for me, I knew how precasiuos her sobriety was, and also how emotionally troubled her relationships were up there. I was told by a Pastor that she should go, because this was her father, afterwards I thought she and I had overcome a hurdle, mostly her yes, but she was important to me too, so it was us.

Back at home, after a while, she was still struggling internally. she went to the Main Pastor of the church, the only man she trusted,(yeah thanks a lot), and told him about how frustrated she was with everybody up there, and how stubborn and childish they all acted, and thier behavior. His answer was. "Why should it bother you? You have God". Again the keep coming to church and AA or thepapists can't help you your problem is cuz you don't submit to God...whew..quick answer. whithin a year she had an uncontrollable need to go up and visit, and sources told me later she went right to a Bar when she got off the Train.

It is entirely possible your WH considered himself after the confrontational time with his friends, and did not stick with the game plan, or didn't have the right one in the first place. Its hard to know, because we all see things through our own clouded filter anyways, if we don't share it with anyone, how can we be held accountable, or get help in the big picture?

I think this is what happened to my wife, and when she brought up her anger about people who could care less about her 1500 miles away, who she had allways helped over the years, I begged her to see a counselor for these emotions, because those were the things that started out her fear and running away to begin with. That MJ is the part I am still figuring out, although I have my theorys.

Yeah I think you are right about he just couldn't handle being there for you at that time. You will eventually realize why he bailed, but it was not your fault he did. The more you step away and the time you take to understand it, will help you to realize that it was his fears and choices, not the unfortunate circumstances we all will have to face when we love someone, that left you out in the cold.

The short answer is, and I struggle with this too, is that he was not strong enough. He could not support you when you were down, and he didn't have your back, when the Sh*t hit the fan. The wolf is allways at the door, and marriages are allways under attack.

Im sorry he has found some "New age" religion that has allowed him to "If it feels good do it", but don't be fooled, that has been around since the beginning.

C.P., thanks for taking the time to reply and share your experiences. I'm feeling guilty because I haven't been to anyone else's thread, including yours, to support them lately. I've been selfishly mired in my own muck.



I'm pretty sure he did not have any accountability in place for himself, other than me, which I hated. I can see not wanting to be held accountable, if you think you're going to fail at something, or that your heart is not in it.



I think it is all fear based, and running. I can understand your anxiety in that situation, I've felt it too.

Edited to add: My counselor told me the last few times I saw her, that stbx is running from his problems, not mine.

I think my stbx feared he'd never get his needs met. It was hard for me to meet his needs during that time most of all. He also feared meeting my need for EP's.

While I was looking through those old e-mails, I saw one that reminded me that we exchanged EN Questionaires just 2 days prior to him saying he wanted out. I made EPs my top #1 need. He felt stifled and controlled by that I believe.

There's another thread that I read tonight over in the recovery forum called "Back after 4 years", or something along those lines. Her husband's attitude about EPs is very, very similiar to my stbx's. He didn't care that she was upset when he ignored her reasonable requests for EPs. It was helpful to read all the responses about that situation. It actually made me feel a little better because it reminded me that I DID have boundaries around myself to not participate in a loveless marriage, and I suppose that's why stbx isn't here today.

He probably has a laundry list of other reasons, but because he could care less about EPs and my feelings, I withdrew and didn't meet his needs. In fact during his packing speech, he mentioned that we just couldn't meet each other's needs. That is not what he told me back in the day when he was actually working on the marriage.

I guess he lacked the motivation to keep his commitments when his needs weren't being met, and so he started searching for a way out to feel better about it all, thus all the feel good religion crap. And his top need was admiration, most of the time. It is HARD to admire someone like this, but I tried in the areas that I could admire him for.



He supported me during the surgery, and two weeks after with the physical and some of the emotional stuff. He also supported me in the weeks before my mother's death, and for a few weeks afterward. I guess that's all he could handle because after that, he actually asked me for a divorce one month after my mother's death. I was in shock and asked him to put it all on hold to give me a chance to grieve my mother's death. Maybe he thought all the hard times would never end. Of course he kept creating more hard times by not being a team player in our marriage for most of our marriage prior to that.



You know, you're right, and it's never worked out well in the past for all of those before him. Earlier today I google some info on New Age. One of the links I found was an "encyclopedia of new age beliefs". In it was stated that it offers the followers nothing more than betrayal and a life without meaning. I always thought stbx thought, since he left, that his life had no meaning with me.

I don't have a thread really, just some random ones, but thanks for thinking of me.

But he changed the meaning to suit himself. You don't want to mean anything now to him do you? not if he is making the rules up as he goes along.

He is lost, and trying to blame you because the world doesn't work by his rules and at his whims. eventually it will cave again, and who knows if he will see the light? Sometimes people keep going in blind circles doing the same stuff over and over and expecting something different. You are not responsible for that.

Before you think it..Yes I know but you would gladly help.

Yes, I would like for me to mean something to him. There were times when I thought I did mean something to him. If he valued me, wouldn't he value the marriage as well?

That doesn't mean that I want him to make up our rules as a couple on his own. I want to be in a partnership.



Time may tell, but by then, the destruction of our marriage will be done. But it is what it is, and I need to let it go.

I just realized that I'm continually working through all this and "constantly processing".

Yeah figuring it out, it still sux, but its a little better, up and down in the rollercoaster. Weeee!

Hey someone call the guy, my rollercoaster busted!

My coaster is broken too, only it won't stop. :P