You are right. We only ever fight about the A.

CV

Today was one of the best days I've had with my wife in a very long time I think. I was able to not really bring anything up, let her be herself (which is kinda nice now that i can see it a bit), and we just enjoyed each other. Not that there wasn't conflict (we do have teenagers), but it was handled the way we did it before the A. Actually, now that I think about it, even during the A, we were on the same page with a lot of stuff regarding our family, and even our goals.

I'm working through the marital problem analysis, and trying to prioritize what's really life threatening and what's not. I know her past is not an excuse, but it is a factor... Her parents don't recognize her boundaries and I have had to push them back several times and help strengthen her over the last three years. so for instance in family commitment I have a 1/4, one if it involves things with her family, 4 if its referring to our immediate family. Like with the kids...
cv

CV,

I sense you are still "white knuckling" it a bit. Relax, calm down, you have a W that loves you. You two need to discuss what would be a good future for both of you. Boundaries that SHE thinks she needs to protect herself, yup! You read that right. She has to come up with a plan to indentify her weaknesses and a plan to protect them. You should let her do this with little input from you.

At the same time ask her something. Ask her what she would do if she were you, what does she think she would need to feel safe in the marriage?

CV I know she failed you, but she has also stood by you, and she has been doing her best for years following her affair. I know you are afraid to trust her with your feelings, but the odds are high that your feelings will be more protected if you place some of this in her hands.

CV at some time, you are going to have to place your heart in her hands again, just as she places her's in yours. You both need to learn how to protect one another. This will be hard for both of you, but very rewarding.

Talk with her, do not talk "at" her. Share your fears, your thoughts, your goals, your hopes and listen as she shares hers.

If you do these things, and you use the tools and insights on this site, you can succeed, your marriage can succeed, and most importantly you will finally give your W a chance to succeed. I would bet good money, she wants to succeed in this marriage more than you can imagine. Can you imagine what it feels like to live with someone you love and KNOW that you failed them so badly? Could you handle it? She has had to.

Think about it CV.

God Bless,

JL

We started this yesterday actually. Letting go is both difficult and oddly freeing at the same time. I did not bring up the A like I have been. We talked about recovering instead. Wow. A light has gone off in my dim, wee little mind. We have so much to talk about. I filled out the Marital problems questionnaire and found that as I finished it, there really was nothing marriage threatening at this time. EYE OPENER!!! It was a call for me to man up a little more. We have had an awesome day today. I have just talked with her (and started listening too)and wow.... I have always tried to protect her, and never let her protect me. Now I think I need to give in a little and let her be a wife. Ugh. In some ways I see that what I have been doing in some areas is as bad as what she did to me. We have a lot of common ground to work from and really, many good years. This realization has been encouraging. Honestly, I am not sure I could do what she is doing. My selfishness over the last year has been nearly as bad (or just as) hers, just manifesting itself differently. My Son is talking me out to dinner tonight. We might spend some more time filling things out and talking more this evening. It's hard knowing the balance between working on things and down time. Thank you for your wisdom and kindness towards me (and my wife). All of you.

CV

Do you mean the Emotional Needs Questionnaire? That Q is intended to keep you on track with finding out what both of your needs are. I'm not sure what you did? The marital problems questionnaire?

LOL. Sorry! It was the Marital problems analysis! My wife and I compared our questionnaires and found that we are pretty much on the same page. We are moving to do some of the others later.

Oh also, I don't know if this is what we church folks call a praise report or not, but my son took me out for a wonderful dinner (he's 17), guy time... I didn't pick up the phone or check on my wife once. It was really nice... Except when i came home. She was freaked out because she had sent several texts and when i didn't respond she said she didn't know how to act! I said act normal and she said "I'd like to, but not sure what that is anymore." maybe you had to be there. We shared a good laugh out of it.

CV,

You said

First of all you are welcome, but in case you haven't figured it out, most of us get more from helping than we give.

As for the balance between working on things and down time, let me ask you what could be better for your marriage than you and your W enjoying "down time" together, laughing together, being with each other? I cannot think of a better way to "work" on the marriage. Also consider this, if you two use the POJA and radical honesty there is no reason that "working" on the marriage has to be that painful. Working on the marriage is mainly working on your future and given that you two love each other, why shouldn't the future be something to savor.

CV, your glass is more than half full.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Did you look up the Greek for love?

JL,

Yes, I am starting to see that. Again, you are right. We have enjoyed an amazing weekend (we have in the past three years, but this was a bit different). We are still working on the POJA. I have started working on the Greek.

Greek is largely determined by usage. A word with a simple meaning, can radically change in it's context. For example: The word kata can mean "according to", but can also mean down or below (catacombs). All that is to say, it is a bigger undertaking than one might think. As was pointed out earlier, there are three different words for love:
Eros: Romantic love
Phileo: Brotherly love
agape: fellowship or warm regard
Agape is the most developed description of love in the NT. Jesus uses it for example in john 3:16, where it carries a moral sense. Historically I think the Greeks in classical literature had no real sense of sacrificial love, but Jesus takes agapao and uses it in this sense. It carries moral responsibility towards the one it is being shown to, and demonstrates a love that surpasses that or eros (being sensually attracted to) another person.

Jesus picks up on that same idea again in Matthew 5:44 in speaking of enemies where he says to Agapao your enemies.

The NT uses love 157 times. The old 124. That's a significant number of direct usages. searching for implications is far far more involved I think. Bear with me, I am spending the next few days looking at this and developing it from Ephesians 5, where Paul picks up on Jesus' idea of agapao as sacrificial rather than simple warm affection and talks to husbands about loving their wives as Christ loved the church. If you are interested, I will post it. My greek is a little rusty, and my hebrew is a little more rusty. It is interesting though, because most times agapao is used, it seems to be as an imperative (command), rather than a suggestion or nice idea...

cv

almost forgot... Happy Easter everyone!

Happy Easter to you too CV.


Ok, now as you start to consider the different forms of love as described in the Greek, consider the time worn and almost universally used saying provided by most WS to the BS.



Which form of love do you think we promised when we took our vows? Not the "in-love" form it is a feeling.


This bring us to the issue that first brought you here but seems to be fading which is great by the way. YOUR ACTIONS toward the woman you have promised to love and who has apparently for the last few years been trying to show you love.

Not all marriages can be saved, but marriages where the WS ends the affairs, asks for mercy, and then shows that they love their spouse are those that are high on the list of marriages that should be saved if possible. Yours is in this category right?

CV you have been blessed in ways that you cannot see yet. Your W has been blessed in ways that perhaps she is starting to see. Work together, talk together, and then learn to live and love together. You can do this and I think she wants to do this very badly.

No punishing, that is God's work. Time for learning and growth.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

If I believed in psychics... perhaps what has helped most reading the forum in the last few days is seeing that there really is nothing new under the sun. October 13, 2007 my wife told me "I'm not in love with you". Needless to say, I was crushed. Over the next several months she would say almost that identical thing, "I love you, but not like a husband loves a wife". I did later find that she was saying it under duress from the OM quite a bit, or when her pride flared up... But it was true. She wasn't loving me the way she was supposed to, and I was certainly mixed baggage there. She said some pretty harsh things to me, laid some pretty strict requirements on me in order to stay married. As I got better at doing them, she became angrier and more confused. I think in MB terms I was making deposits in the LB. I was aware it would be hard work when we married and I promised only to ever leave her or stop working if there was an A.

Speaking in strictly Christian terms here (This is where I operate more effectively I think/hope), how do I lay my life down repeatedly for my wife? That will take much more self examination. "To the point of death" is what Ephesians 5 is saying. That's a big pair of shoes to walk in. I am hoping I am man enough to extend the mercy and grace needed to do this. I realized that I have been punishing a lot over the last three years. I really need to retrain myself. That might be hardest. It seems that self discipline is the first thing to go in an A for both the H and the W.

cv

CV, I wanted to second JL's advice that it is a good idea to spend as much time as possible with your WIFE. That is what will benefit your marriage. Secondly, it is a good idea to keep tabs on each other when you are apart. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. It is too much trust that destroys marriages. If you are in touch with each other all day long it makes it much harder to carry on a secret second life.

I am curious why your wife didn't go with you to dinner with your son?

Hi ML,

Thanks for that. We are (and have been) in touch with each other every day (even when she was engaged in the A). Then she worked 40 miles away, now she works for a friend of mine and one of our elders in our church. The contact is more frequent. We talk on and off all day, via txt or chat. She holds herself accountable when she goes to the ladies room, when someone says hello in the hallway, etc... We have lunch several times a week together. My schedule is flexible and I can pop in anytime (and sometimes do). We spend so much time together that the kids are often jealous of us. Ours are older, 20, 18 and 17 now.

We try to make time for one on one with the kids. Always have. spend time with them, talk with them, etc... My 17year old just signed up for the USMC (kind of a family tradition), and he asked that I go with him for a man-to-man talk about it. He wanted to know what my experience was in the Corps and what to look out for, jobs available, etc... and to just hang out and "be men". My wife was with my daughter and son's GF. They went for a bite and picked up some dessert for everyone. It was really kind of a "normal" evening if that makes sense.


CV

CV,

My father used to tell me that the two main motivators in our lives were fear and greed. Let me appeal to your greed for a moment. You said First, excellent observations about yourself.

Now let's get to appealing to your greed for a moment. Are you happy with your wave below you in your way of thinking? Do you think she is happy although she may have accepted her status as a second class citizen? If you are punishing, she is second class right?

Now consider this, would you be happier if your W was at your side rather than below/behind you? Would you be happier if she was happier and had the strength to help you when you needed it? Would you feel safer if she could share with you one on one her fears, her love, her needs, and her worries about you? Would you feel better if you could do the same with her? She can best do this IF she is on the same level as you, you will be best able to share and seek support if you are on the same level as her.

CV, you need to life her up to your level. You will be happier because she will be happier. You will be safer, because she will be your partner again maybe for the very first time. CV, it takes a strong man to lift someone up and the only question remaining is: "Are you strong enough to do this and then reap the rewards for doing it?"

You see, I am appealing to your greed, your desire for a better life, a better marriage, a better sense of love. What is stopping you is your FEAR that she may hurt you, but you are hurting yourself now by not lifting her into her most effective position...being your partner.

MB offers you the tools to do this. The experience here indicates that if you do and she is as you say, that your life will be better than you have imagined.

Your call which will it be? Fear or Greed.

God Bless,

JL

I used to preach before I was married. I would rather be a lowly preacher than stoop down to be a, mighty king!

I used to be active in holiness style fire and brimstone street preaching!

JL, no, I am not happy with my wife below me. I have realized I am making her a 2nd class citizen, and have stopped putting my foot on her neck every time we talk.

I understand... Constantly punishing her is demeaning and doesn't give her a chance to shine. This is what I've been trying to do more of recently. In some areas (with the kids) I have been good at lifting her up and putting her beside me. I did that early on. But privately I think I haven't done so good at it. We finished the EN questionnaire tonight. I see where I have really failed. Yes, it is fear that has gripped me (and I don't like admitting that, but it is what it is). My W says she has noticed a change in me in the few weeks I've been working through the MB stuff. I started it before finding the group. I think I'm ready to be a little greedy! ;-)

CV

Lol! I have a reputation for preaching with passion. I love preaching, and I love teaching. still trying to figure what fits me best.

CV

CV,

I did not tell you the rest of his statement. He said if you ever run into someone that doesn't seem to be motivated by fear or greed...stay away from them, they are dangerous.

I always thought that to some extent fear and greed, where like Harley's giver/taker view of things. We are all after all human.

Have you told your W what you fear? Have you told her you want her as a partner, lover, wife, friend, and not someone you have to watch, check on, etc? Once you do those things then, the two of you can figure out how to protect each other.

The needs questionaire and the LB questionaire can be real eye openers. But, they can lead to true insight and therefore progress.

You are doing fine CV, really you are. Keep talking to your wife.

I will be off on travel for a week or so, but let me leave you with something to consider. Did you notice that you commented on your W's assessment of your behavior lately? I sensed you were both glad that she noticed and glad that you were making a positive impact on her. You know something that perhaps she doesn't realize yet, and perhaps that is your source of fear.

You know how much power she has over you, you know you want and need her assurances and reassurances, don't you? You know that despite all she has done, you still love her and want her back and it frightens you doesn't it? She does not realize this yet and you worry that when she finds out, she will exploit your weakness for her.

Am I getting close? CV that is what all of the tools here are for. You make you stronger by making you more open, more honest, and more aware of what you need and what you need to provide to your partner.

If my supposition is correct, I wonder what she would say if you told her how much power she has, how much you need her in your life, and how much you love her and you fear it. I wonder. But, you know what? I'm guessing you would touch her heart in ways that perhaps you never have.

Just remember something else, preachers and teachers tend to hold themselves close for fear people will really know them: Fear that their power to persuade will be diminished. You opening up to her may well be what protects you and your marriage my friend. Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Have I told her? No. I haven't. I have told her that I want her as a partner, lover, wife and friend. In fact, I have always maintained she was my best friend, even when she was cheating. At least I had that one done... I have told her other things on and off... What i am finding is that I am needing to undo some of my schizophrenia from the first year and a half after d-day.

The questionnaires were really difficult for us. Oddly, we compared our ratings and were pretty much on the same page across the board.

I will be here in a week! thanks for the encouragement. I did not notice that I commented on her assessment of my behavior. We are both glad. Yes, I think you are spot on.She has no idea how devoted, loved and cherished she is by me, nor does she realize how much I want her and how much power she really has. Yes, the tendency in ministry is to "not make yourself a target". The constant struggle is to not put on a false face. This gives us something positive and good to focus on tomorrow.

Thanks JL.

CV