Markos, I'm not sure if that's a fair statement. I'm sure most of us lovebusted quite a bit when we were dating, we just had those wonderful new dating chemicals running around that certain things didn't bother us (think about those things that suddenly started bothering you after awhile that didn't in the beginning).

Most don't even know they're lovebusting because they have no idea about this program.

I think it's strange that a woman in her 40s has never had an orgasm. He's not juding her; he's making a comment on her experiences. Now the other guys talking about her sexual activities prior to marriage are disrespecting her.

Daisy, I'm not sure if it's a sad, sad reflection society that people aren't waiting to get married to have sex. My wife and I dated for years. While I don't want to date someone that's going to be 'putting out' in the first couple of dates, I wouldn't want to wait years either.

I don't think wanting to wait or not wanting to wait to have sex till marriage is wrong. I do think it's important to be open about this when dating about intimate expectations.

I think it's an oft-quoted (though I don't know if it's backed) thing that a lot of women DON'T experience orgasm until they are in their 30's. Considering your history, being 40 and not having experienced it isn't that strange considering that.

I don't think you are weird for holding out for marriage, either. In fact, giving up on that for almost any reason, particularly the WRONG reasons is NOT going to make SF any more comfortable or enjoyable for you.

You aren't weird, you just have solid beliefs and standards and some bad life experiences.

Agree with KT and HHH. I don't see holding out for marriage as weird or abnormal - on the other hand I don't see it as superior, either. It just is. Though I will admit that waiting avoids the risk of unwanted pregnancy.

If I was dating and the lady told me she was saving herself for marriage, I would respect her choice and not deride her for it, but I would also end the dating relationship in an honest and respectful manner.

Eh, Daisy is just a strong Christian woman.

So... for the second time today, the rationalist is going to bolster Christian stance.

God created man, designed with... er, certain parts.

God created woman, with compatible parts.

God created marriage, and within marriage he said man and woman shall come together and be one flesh.

God loves what he creates. God created sex. God loves sex... WITHIN MARRIAGE. It was created to feel good so that man and woman could also enjoy God's creation.

Daisy, you are a faithful woman. When your flesh and your faith are both satisfied within marriage, I have (an outsider's) faith that you will, in fact, come to love and enjoy SF with the man whom you choose to marry.

That�s pretty much the common attitude right now. It causes me to try really hard not to divulge my feelings on this unless I have to, because I want to get to know the guy and I know as soon as this comes out the dating is over. The whole thing confuses me, because many dating advice books and websites actually say the best way to get married (vice be live-in forever) is to withhold sex. That�s not the reason I�m doing it, for me it�s religious, but I don�t see how these �gurus� can recommend that because once a guy figures out he�s not getting any, he disappears.

On the opposite side of the coin, I actually broke things off with another guy I had dated for about 7 months because it appeared things were heading toward dating for years but no marriage. I told him though I was in no rush to get remarried I would not be happy being in the situation like his previous relationship (8-year live-in). It just didn�t sit well with me to date a guy for a couple years and NOT get married.

I had not told him of my no sex before marriage conviction, but kept the physical to minor things like cuddling so he probably figured it out. I don�t feel bad about that relationship crumbling because I wasn�t really attracted to him anyway, the way I am now, but he was lots of fun and a very impressive man.

Many men equate sex with affection and admiration. If you don't divulge your commitment to no pre-marital sex, the man may think he is being strung along, till you find someone better.

I'd tell the guy after a month or two of dates. You will need to find other ways to meet the affection and admiration needs. You may also need to convince him that he is worthy of your love.

Its not that men are shallow, its that they are very afraid to have their hearts broken. They just don't show it. (Its the macho thing) I know I've been there.

Daisy, you should stick with what you believe is best for you. You shouldn't settle for less. I don't think you should be judged negatively for what you believe. But you still have to be honest with guys you're dating and not withhold that you're not going to have sex until marriage. I've stated before that I wouldn't want to date a woman that would just sleep with me on the first few dates. But I wouldn't want to wait until marriage to have sex either.

I think a lot of guys after dating for awhile and trying to have sexual intimacy and repeatedly getting the "I'm not ready yet" would start to take it personally, that you didn't like them that way, and look at it as rejection.

I think at some point if both you and the guy are going to wait until marriage that some sex talk should happen. Stuff like preferences, turn offs, definate nos, frequency expectations, etc.

So stick to your beliefs but always be honest.

I think that you owe it to these fellas that you date to let them know early in the relationship that you are not going to have pre-marital sex. Its not really fair to them to let them think its going to happen if its not.

I would feel duped (to use CWMI's term) if that happened to me after a couple months of dating.

So how early is too early? I used to tell guys on the first date. But then my friends told me that was why I was never getting a second date, I should keep shut and let the guy get to know me first. Honestly, few guys have lasted past 2 months of dating, because they tend to move too fast and I end up having to tell them I want to slow things down. Which leads to "when?" As one guy said, �I don't want to wait around for 6 months only to find out you're still not ready.� So then I end up telling them �no sex without commitment.� And then I never hear from them again.

Not all guys, of course. In my 2 years of divorced-hood, I�ve gone out with 3 guys beyond 2 months, but until Big Dude they were just �getting to know you� not exclusive dating.

First date is absolutely fine. If you don't get a second date, then you won't be wasting months on someone who doesn't share the same belief and commitment as you.

NOTHING wrong with that, Daisy.

I don't know about first date. I'm not even sure how that conversation would start since it's a first date. Guys don't typically expect sex on a first or second date. I think by the 3rd date you're okay to start approching the subject of intimacy. I'd assume by the 3rd date, the guy is going to try and start kissing you with a bit more energy than a peck on the cheek.

And then of course, it depends on if you and the guy are dating exclusively. I think at that point before things get exclusive then he should know so that he is free to pursue other women that are okay with sex before marrige and you can find a guy that is okay with waiting.

I'm with you on the exclusive point... I would never let a man commit to only me without making sure he understood my view on waiting.

And I definitely want to discuss all the likes/dislikes/etc before reaching the point of marriage because I don't want to end up with some so-called "great church guy" who will never explore any of these attraction feelings with me. If I get married again, I want orgasm, lol!

The only guy I've got to the point of "exclusivity" with was Big Dude, and he said he didn't have a problem with waiting. His reply to me when I told him was, it's been a few years one more won't kill me. I wonder now if he really meant it, though, because our relationship fell apart pretty quick after I told him about the no orgasm yet thing.

It's all in how you sell it.

Dating is testing the merchandise before "buying", however, you are also being evaluated at the same time. So while finding a guy you are physically attracted to is important to you...you also want a man that is physically attracted to you. Well, since your beliefs prohibit you from allowing him to actually sample the product (and there are many other "competitors" out there willing to let him sample)....you've got to get better at SELLING the illusion/fact that you are a passionate sexy woman (passionate for THAT particular man that is) that is bottling up a vixen.

When you tell the guy on second, third, er...tenth date you need to use your feminine smarts and matured self-confidence to deliver the message that you are waiting for a commitment before you "go there" again but that it's hard...particularly with [such date]. Tell them you have to take cold showers after your dates and/or that you "dream" about them. You have to over sell that you ARE sexual and, in particular, sexual for them...because your actions of withholding most likely communicate the wrong message in today's society. I'm not telling you to lie or be disingenuous, but as an adult it's not sinful to TALK about sex with the target of your affections.

Back in my dating years I had one girl/young lady that wouldn't even hardly kiss me goodnight at the end of a good date. Her friends convinced me she really liked me and I kept going out with her but eventually I stopped calling. It wasn't that she didn't go to bed with me...it's that she didn't seem to have any passion (for me and/or sex in general). To this day I don't know if she was "saving herself" or just, as they say, a cold fish. Communication is the key...verbal and non-verbal. What additional messages are you sending?

You can deliver many subtle and not so subtle messages that you want sex and are dying to have sex with that particular person while still NOT having sex.

Besides...many people wait until marriage for sex...how did those women find husbands? It's not completely unheard of and you need to become more adept at explaining the benefits of waiting to your boyfriends. I'd think, in particular, a divorce betrayed husband might find dating a woman that can control her sexual impulses (and thus not betray him like his ex-wife did) refreshing.

Confidence and salesmanship. The message is not something you have to apologize for or be ashamed of, but you may have to sell it.

Mr. Wondering

It's been a couple of years since my divorce. I just want to let everyone know that with developing new relationships (mostly FEMALE friendships, not male love interests), a good amount of counseling, and a whole lot of self reflection, I have become more "normal."

I know what it's like to feel attracted/lustful for a member of the opposite sex. Even recently discovered what it feels like now to have sexual pleasure, though as a �good little Christian girl, I�m kinda embarrassed to admit it. I consider this a sign of healing.

It goes FAR beyond any butterflies I may have felt up to the point where my marriage was falling apart.

I don't want to say that universally all people who are going through what I went through have mental issues, but I had had to overcome serious emotional abnormalities brought on by childhood sexual trauma (my father is a registered childhood sex offender) and my attempts to overcome my lack of sexual desire only resulted in the aversion Dr. Harley writes about.

If you or your spouse has bona fide problems experiencing sexual attraction, and by that I mean you�ve never felt sexual tension, lust, etc, there is still hope for you.

I would like to jump in and give my thoughts. I think telling on the first date that you will wait for marriage is fine. One of these days, you will meet a man that respects that, which shows he may even respect you! I know Dr. Harley says that usually within two years of dating a person you both know whether this is the one, and part of the desire to marry is to consummate the rest of the intimacy the two are feeling with each other. I think that if you wait until marriage, you have a solid foundation on which to make the marriage last a lifetime because you know you're with a man that respects you and your values.

Just popping back in for a quick update... Some things I've learned over the years:

- Some people have no (or low) libido. They might enjoy affection (cuddling, kissing, etc) but feel nothing "down there." This can be for a variety of reasons (trauma, genetics, overstressed life, spouse love busting, etc). That said, most people who say they were never attracted to their spouse are lying (perhaps because they're in an "affair fog") and just don't remember those days

- In some cases, people with low libido do not understand what someone of "normal" libido experiences when it comes to sexual arousal, and this lack of experience can cause problems in relationship because the low libido spouse doesn't understand why it's such a big deal and the higher libido spouse can't imagine not feeling sexual desire

- My case, and at least two others as evidenced by the posts in this thread, have shown that sexual attraction CAN grow, even if never experienced before, once the causes are dealt with (for example, clearing out the schedule so one is not so stressed/overworked at night, dealing with childhood trauma, or getting more emotional needs met)


I have been dating a wonderful man for about 8 months now, and we have been discussing long term plans. This scares me a little bit, but ONE thing that is great is that we are evenly matched sexually (and in many other areas). We are waiting for marriage to fully have sex, but we've had enough discussions and experienced enough of each other that I am confident that our relationship will not just have SEX but rather SEXUAL FULFILLMENT.

My libido is still kinda different in that a good looking man does not turn me on the way other women would be turned on. It's really more about how he treats me. Now that my SO has come into my life and proven himself to be amazing, just the thought of him drives me crazy "down there."

Being in love like this is a wonderful feeling, and I wish all of God's people can experience it.

Haven't been on this site in years. Really didn't feel welcome for awhile. Felt like I was too weird, and too many of my posts were getting censored (trying to stay in the MB guidelines, but somehow not succeeding).

But today I got a "happy birthday" email from the system and decided to check it out.

Update: The guy I mentioned in the above post is now my husband, 5 yrs. We have a miracle baby (he couldn't have kids with his ex, and she had one from a prior relationship, so they thought it was him). We are very well matched and even though pushing 50 have a very active sex life. I'm almost embarrassed to type that, but I'm hoping it gives someone hope. Sometimes I forgive him something just so I can get a good romp. Night and day from when I first came to this site.

He is very much like me- doesn't get stimulated sexually just by good looking body alone. It has to come with love, attention, and being nice to him. Same as me. But most of my life I never had anyone treat me like that. So I never knew it. I'm thankful for learning about the asexual group, because getting to know those folks showed me that (not for everyone, but for many) this kind of sexuality stems from abuse.

I've worked a lot on myself personally and professionally and I wish I could tell you more details about the great life I'm living now, but I'm not sure how to do that while remaining anonymous. People look at me and don't recognize me because I carry myself so differently now.

I will say that my ex still isn't involved with our son (talks to him or texts maybe 2 times a year, has an occasional visit funded by grandma). My husband is a great father to him. We are good partners. Not perfect, lol, still some little kinks here and there, but we've been together 8 years and married 5 and still very, very happy. Still goofy with each other and still very attracted to each other despite the effects of age starting to set in.

Thank you all for your support during those tumultuous times.

- DTC2

Hi Daisythecat! Thanks for the great update. Congrats to you on your new marriage and child! It is great to hear that your life has turned out so well. I wanted to comment on this statement in one of your previous posts:


You described the driving force for sexual desire in the typical woman. Sexual desire in women is created by meeting her intimate emotional needs in an effective way. Those needs are typically affection, conversation and recreational companionship. Men are motivated more by physical appearance.