Put it back on! Seriously, what it conveys is that you've given up. We got new rings. We alternate them. Despite the bad memories, I still love my old one best.

We loved Lost, I need to catch fringe and I have the event queued up. Haven't seen Alias in a while, but we both enjoyed it. Ok... We will netflix the last 2 seasons... Maybe the kids will get bored enough of us to let us watch in peace....Yah right.


Cv

Absolutely agree w/ HPB on this one. My BH took his ring off after D-day, and it hasn't been on since. I still wear mine. We are legally divorced. I still wear mine.

I think the action speaks volumes, WPG.

WPG,

FWW didn't wear her ring for years. There's a little behind it.

I bought her her original engagement ring when we were 18. It was a small, simple diamond engagement ring. Her wedding ring was small and simple as well. Both were what I could afford as a young man working.

To paraphrase a song that rips my heart out every time I hear it "when we didn't have nothin', but a plain and simple kind of lovin'"

FWW runs a meat and seafood counter at a grocery store. Part of her job consists of running beef roast through a meat slicer. One day, she sliced the diamond off of her ring. There was also the fact that all her stone settings got clogged with meat and blood. We bought her a whole new wrap set, but she didn't wear them to work as a way of protecting them.

That became never wearing them, as she would forget to put them on after work.

Last summer, we bought her a simple band with inlaid diamonds - something that wouldn't get destroyed by going through the slicer.

To be honest, when we bought it I was indifferent. I figured "What does it matter? You simply would have been sleeping with someone else while wearing your ring."

Sometimes, that still echoes. However, it also means something that she makes sure that either her "work ring" or her wrap set is on every day.

It bothers me more when it's not.


WPG, that ring is a symbol. Therefore, not wearing it is also a symbol.

What do you want to represent?

Not only do I agree with TST that you should wear it until the day a divorce is final, but I would say that you should wear it until the day you decide to move on - even if that is 2 years past the finalization of a divorce.

That symbol is not about him, it's about you, and your commitment to what you want.

thank you for the advice, everyone. GO's post was the last I read before going to bed - I was going to post but you know me, I'm slow as molasses when posting so in the interim we had a thunderstorm come up and the power blipped and I lost the whole thing!

The ring is on. I took it out last night, cleaned it up. Very mixed feelings. Not about my committment to the M and my H, I still want him with all my heart. I just don't feel like I deserve to wear it anymore. I get the point about what message it conveys to other men and that was not - is not - what I meant when I took it off.

The ring reminds me of what I destroyed. Although truthfully I don't need to look at or wear a physical object to remind me of that. I feel it in my heart every single day.

HHH, you said:


My H pretty much said the same thing to me. I remember once he asked me to give him my ring, to take it off and give it to him. I refused. He said he was going to smash it with a sledgehammer. I told him that if he wanted to do that, he'd have to smash my hand along with it because I was not going to take it off. Later it became, "It's your ring. Do what you want with it."

Like your H, Mrs. V, my H doesn't wear a ring either. He doesn't have one anymore. He threw his old ring into a lake and he wouldn't accept the new one I bought him. I have a picture of him that I keep in my nightstand from when we took a trip together a few months after DDay #1, when I was trying to make him believe that the A had been an EA only. He's smiling and he looks gorgeous, and you can see his wedding band on his finger.

I understand what it represents and I certainly don't want him to think I've given up on him/us. In my heart I simply don't feel worthy of him anymore and it's hard for me not to assume that he thinks I'm not worthy of him anymore either (I know, I know...that's a DJ and besides, assumptions are like you-know-whats...).

I work in electronics for a living. After taking 60,000 volts through my ring finger due to the ring, searing the flesh and nearly welding the ring to my skin, I don't wear the ring on my finger anymore.

It's on a necklace around my neck. The necklace is one my wife made by hand, and she often comments that she loves to see it on me.

I definitely recognize those sentiments, WPG.

This may be difficult to arrange, but I think this would be an excellent sentiment to convey to your BH. Not in a loaded, uber-emotional purge, but more in the "just throwing this out there, it is what it is" kind of vein.

Interesting.

I also demanded my H remove his ring.
He sheepishly did. I dropped it into an antique milk bottle sitting on his desk.
It stayed there maybe 24 hours.
He put it on and refused to remove it.
He said: "We are married. I will wear my ring."

I removed my ring and left it in my car ash tray about 3 months (I think, a little foggy on the time thing It's been so long)

WPG ... wear your ring.
You're a married woman.
You're working on that worthiness thingy.

I was thinking last night...I'm not sure that H noticed I put my ring back on, but I do understand that I'm not wearing my ring for him.

It's for me.

Whether or not he wants to be married to me anymore isn't the point. What he might believe about the state of my heart isn't the point.

Wearing it doesn't make me any more hopeful. It doesn't make me feel any more worthy. It serves to represent - and remind me - of what I want. Whether or not what I want is ever going to happen.

DD#1's birthday was this week. She had some friends over last night and I let both DD's invite a friend to sleep over. If you've never had a house full of squealing 7-9 year old girls, you probably still have full hearing capacity. Anyway one of my good friends came over to give me an extra set of hands with the girls and she and I had a chance to talk after the party had wound down. It's good to be able to talk, but the thing is, at this point no one really has any advice for me anymore. Pretty much everybody - including myself - seems to realize that there isn't anything else I can do. No one can figure out what H might be thinking based on his actions. Who knows, maybe he doesn't know either.

It would be easier to figure out if he was flat-out mean and cold, but he's not. He worked his rear off this week at the house and pretty much finished one of the exterior home improvement projects we'd planned. Cynical me says it is just to improve resale value on the house. But he'll occasionally say things using "we" (maybe it is the "royal we," lol) and things that imply some future...together? I don't know. If I read too much into things he does and says, I get all twisted up and confused. Maybe he's just being nice for the sake of the kids. But the kids don't care what the house looks like, really. And since he's not living here, how the house looks doesn't reflect on him. I simply can't think in terms of us just being "friends" (or friends w/benefits, whatever we are right now) because I want more than that, I don't think I can live the rest of my life with just that.

But then again, I don't even deserve his friendship. I don't deserve kindness or even civility from him.

At some point I suppose I will need to have a conversation with him. That's what my friend & I talked about last night, same thing as my IC has been telling me. But I don't even know how to start. I know that I need to be O&H but I am terrified that if he's on the receiving end of any "relationship" talk with me that he'll run, and I won't even have the tentative relationship (if it is a "relationship," perhaps "existence" is a better word) that we have now. I don't know how to start that conversation, I don't know how to approach him without causing him to shut down. I'm better at getting things out that I need to say by writing, but I've written countless letters to him.

So I am afraid to say anything for fear of him pulling away. I keep quiet, I take what he is willing or able to give, I keep sticking those branches out there...and I still cry myself to sleep every night.

I said awhile back that the last thing I said to him relationship-wise was that one morning after he'd stayed the night. "For what it's worth, I still love you." And I still do. I still want him. And it's not just to maintain a lifestyle, which is something he's tossed back at me before. Because I still have the same "lifestyle," our income, our house, my car. I want him by my side. No one else. The "lifestyle" we built together is meaningless if we aren't together to live it.

Realizing that, living it, breathing it, every day and yet knowing that it was because of my actions that it's lost? It sucks.

I know if we don't end up in a restored M, I'll get past this. I'll survive. But I not only broke my M, I didn't just devastate my H, I broke myself. And no amount of counseling is going to change that. I can keep going to IC and she can talk till she's blue in the face, and I sit there and nod and agree with her and yet I still can't forgive myself for what I did to him, to my children. When I talked to my friend last night, she asked me about the depression. I take an AD in the morning and one at night. I flat-out told her, I'm not holding a butcher knife to my wrist anymore, but other than that nothing has changed. I suppose it's a step up to not be suicidal. But nothing else has changed. I still have trouble sleeping. I can't fall asleep at night and I can't wake up in the morning. I rarely work out anymore, just don't have the energy or the desire. I hate going to work every day. I go through the motions of life - I go to work and do only the minimum of what I have to do to get by. I do for the girls, and still try to do special things for them. I try to be upbeat and positive when I see H, cook for him, keep the house (reasonably!) neat, look nice...and then crash when he leaves. I don't see where any amount of "talking" about it - i.e., counseling - is going to make things any better. I think I am really just wasting my money. I think the only thing that will improve the depression is time. Not talk therapy, not drugs. Time.

I wish with all my heart he would give me a chance to help him heal. And the selfish part of me wishes that he would help me to heal, too.

Ah well...if wishes were horses, right?

Thanks for reading and thanks for the support....I know at this point I'm really working on personal recovery, and maybe I don't belong in this forum anymore, I don't know. It's helpful (cathartic) just getting my thoughts out, anyway.

My idea? Take what you just wrote, rewrite it by hand, slightly edited to be from you to him and give it to him and let him deal with his side.

Let the chips fall where they will. Add a PS. that is he wants to talk about it and the future, you are willing. Otherwise let it be what it is. An open profession to your husband from your heart.

Nothing ventured nothing gained IMO. Of course I am hardheaded and persistent on things to a fault sometimes. ;-)

I know those of us who have read your threads see the change WPG, we see your heart. I can't help but think if he was here reading what you were writing that his heart would become soft towards you again.

Well ..... I don't know.


I beg to differ about the civility.
We all owe civility to each other.

Kindness can be a gift, unearned.

Friendship is totally earned.

My opinion.

WPG,

Do you think you deserve kindness from me?

WPG,

I agree that you have done all you can in your marriage, it's up to your husband if there is a future for the two of you.
I would concentrate on you, work on being happy from the inside out.....
Be a good mother, a good woman, a good friend.
Volunteering helps me, the gift to someone who is needy is such a great feeling. I volunteer at our local hospital in day surgery...........
one day a week I do something for someone else just because.......because I want to ............
How about joining a new group, baseball, volleyball something like that.....
Go out meet new people........keep an open mind and heart........
hugs.
jessi

@ CV...it's funny, I've been carrying around a letter I wrote him for a month or so now, some of it along the same vein as I posted since I've been rolling the same stuff around in my head for a while. What has stopped me from giving it to him? You guessed it, fear. Although in a way, letters are a safer way for me to communicate with him because face-to-face, I fear the eye rolls, the snorts of disdain or disbelief, I fear the words he could say. The old thing about sticks and stones? I'd rather face sticks and stones. You get over physical injuries, but it takes longer to heal from the words, IMHO. Just as I wounded him with the words I spoke to the OM.

@ Pep...you're good at making me think!

I can see your point re: civility. It makes me think about going shopping. When I was in college I worked retail, and I have a great deal of sympathy for retail employees, unless they are being outright rude! But most of the time, folks are doing the best they can, they are overwhelmed and dealing with impatient people, and I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. I remember once going shopping with my MIL and she was so rude to the poor clerk at the jewelry counter, who was trying to wait on 3 people at once and had no help, and I felt so sorry for the poor salesclerk.

And it's easy to be civil to the inmates who clean our building. I don't have conversations with them, but I say good morning and thank them for taking out the trash in my office.

So as long as someone is not disrespecting, it's not hard to be civil...and even if they are disrespectful, it's my choice to be rude back or walk away and refuse to engage. And I would say that at minimum, in front of the children, H should be civil to me and I to him, as we are role models for the girls.



Honestly, Pep? I don't feel like I deserve kindness from any of the BS's on this board. And so many BS's have weighed in on my thread and offered support, folks I have grown to respect, and I read their words and I cry...it means so much that someone cares, but yet at the same time I feel so undeserving of it. I know there is only one BS in this world who I have hurt directly with my actions, but I still feel like I represent this sort of an archetype. I see myself with this great ol' big scarlet letter on me that I can't hide. And I know that's just me looking at myself, b/c there are so many FWS's on this board who I respect and I don't view them as evil people. I just see it in myself. H has called me evil and I wonder sometimes if he's right?

I sometimes am amazed that even my family and friends still care about me after everything I've done. Part of the conversation I had with my friend last night included me telling her about the abortion I had when I was 23, since it sort of related in to some of the things that H has since said to me. And you know what? She was only sad that I didn't come to her then and tell her, because she would have wanted to be there for me. If she'd told me the same thing, it wouldn't have changed how I felt about her. So why can't I attribute that kind of love and caring to my friends? I'm disrespecting them by not doing so.

So Pep, I don't think I've done anything to earn your kindness, but I treasure the gift you've given me.

@ jessi...was it you that was suggesting something similar on HFD's thread, about getting his WW and the family to all do something to help others? I remember reading something like that but can't remember who posted...but it's a good idea. I know when I focus on someone else it helps to take my mind off of myself and wallowing. If I feel like there's someone on the forum I can help, it helps me get my mind off my own immediate sitch. I have looked for some craft and exercise classes for something new to do. I am planning to go back to teaching later this year so that will give me something different to focus on. I plan stuff for the girls and I to do together, they've got a break from school coming up and we're planning a trip for the 3 of us again.

I know the ball is in his court now and there's absolutely nothing else I can do. Just can't help but keep wishing that there was, you know? Hard for a control freak to realize just how powerless she really is!

Hey WPG!

I keep on reading your thread and hoping my WW wakes up w/ half the heart and soul you've exhibited thus far. she couldnt hold a candle to you. what is your H's email address? i mean really. i wish we lived in the same state bc along w/ Reynolds we would seek to give him a talkin' (and maybe a thrashin'). i do not know what i would do if my W were to exhibit a similar kind of turnaround. right now am in place where like you, i'm beginning to doubt that it will ever happen.

PB and others have been great with their support. PB has a way of asking questions or making suggestions that appear very simple initially but cuts to the heart of the matter very deeply. it is the daily grind that exacts the most toll. day in/day out. talking to my sister yest, she said at some point i should go on a vacation just for myself bc you would think i have to be exhausted from all of this mental/emotional toil.

but nevertheless you grind on WPG. you are there. words cannot begin to describe how much respect i have for you. you have owned up to your actions, you have not tried to run away or bury your head in the ground. my W has pretty much painted herself into a corner w/ her characterizations of me to her family and friends. to even try and do a fraction of what you have done and accomplished would probably be asking too much of her. and imagine, my W fancies herself as a devout person, ardently Catholic. some people are just born a certain way, have had experiences and ultimately do things for which they will either accept responsibility or not. we ALL make mistakes WPG. it is what you do when you realize that you did make one that makes the difference.

my thoughts and prayers are with you, your D's and with your H as well. the offer stands too. just give me an address or tel # or email contact.

SMM

I woke up this morning and was thinking about what I wrote and realized how completely wrong and self-focused I was by saying that. I've hurt TWO BS's...my point is more that there's only one BS I can directly make amends to. I honestly don't know what, if anything, I could do for OMW, beyond staying out of her life forever. I had thought about trying to re-expose, b/c I have no way of knowing if she received the email I sent her - I never got a response. I wonder at what point would it just be revenge on OM to try to re-expose. Additionally, I do not want to break NC. If anyone has suggestions or advice I'd be glad to hear it.

thanks, SMM...like I said, it means so much to get support from people who are in the same shoes as my BH. I still don't feel deserving of it, but thank you...y'all don't know how much it means to me. I understand, though, that simply because I owned my stuff and am trying to make amends, it doesn't mean that I can negate what I did. It will never go away. And it's H's decision to leave the M, and if he can't get past what I did to him, it's his right to go. I can't choose the decision he makes, I never could, any more than he could have chosen the decision that I made.

off to the boss's office (yikes!) - I was summoned! I'll be back l8r!

This is absolutely right, and your statement of such speaks volumes of your personal recovery.


Does it also remind you of commitment? Commitment to your marriage and to your BH, of course, but also commitment to honor and integrity? The things we threw away with our affairs, WPG, can still be values we espouse now, and hold even more dear because of how cheaply we cast them aside before. That's all wrapped into my ring's meaning.


I forget - how long after your final D-day, WPG? I would hazard a guess that these are positive things. That said, though, if it were me I would try as much as I could to maintain the "no expectations" mantra. It is what it is. IIWII, ha!


Hmm, I would reword this. Do you not feel entitled to his friendship? Nor kindness, nor civility? I understand what you're saying, I'm just trying to get you to think a bit more ... empowering.

Your actions when you were wayward certainly don't deserve any of the aforementioned goodness from your victim, that's indisputable. But what do your actions now deserve?

I'm just making this convoluted w/ no real point, (because I haven't teased one out yet, definitively), I'm sorry. Yes, you are not owed anything by your BH, as you were the perpetrator and he your victim. But you as a person now are not that perpetrator. It is part of your history, yes, and the lessons will leave indelible scars, but try to separate your self-worth now from who you were then.


Ah, yes, yes, I understand this. It gets better, though I realize I'm saying that from the vantage point of my situation v. yours. I will join the chorus calling for the open and honest talk. I think he will appreciate hearing what you have to say, regardless of whether or not he runs for the hills or it's a minor speed bump or it's nothing at all. I would definitely try to avoid it being a high-pressure, emotionally-charged situation, though. Just say briefly what you need to say, then move on to other things. JMVHO, though, welcome to correction.



Hooo boy. I won't go into too much detail for fear of getting us both miserably depressed , but, again, this resonates with me.


Agree with this, though I am NO EXPERT.


I love that you are aware of these feelings, WPG, and that you can articulate them. I hope it works out, and, as you yourself said, you know you will heal eventually.


Oh, you absolutely have a place here. I don't know about real life where you live, but I find very few people who "get" what happens to a person when infidelity occurs, be that person the BS or the WS. Very few people understand and espouse MB-like concepts in their lives. If anyone is able to offer support and advice and encourage your growth, I'd say you've already found them here.

Oh, and one more thing: you are welcome for this novel.

At this point, absolutely forget it and let it go. No question.

I'm not sure what others would advise, but I would go so far as to recommend you should shut down any thoughts of the OM and the OMW as soon as they crop up. Don't entertain any ideas, even negative ones -- you're giving them brain space, and, by extension, putting out feelers for "contact."

anytime, Mrs V!!!

You asked how long it has been since final D-Day - it was in January 2010. He confronted me when I got home from work and I admitted the A was a PA, but I only admitted to once. He left that night, and when he came back the next day I admitted it was actually twice. Of course he didn't believe that was the truth since I had lied so effectively and for so long. And I still tried to withhold things from him, like broken NC (when OM called me to get H to "leave him alone").


I get it...kind of along the same lines as what Pep said. Not feeling entitled to anything from him (friendship, kindness, whatever) makes more sense from a position of trying to preseve my self-worth. But I still have a hard time feeling confident about my self-worth now...I think that's part of my meaning when I said I broke myself...not that my self-esteem has ever been stellar, but now it's really in the crapper. I have to figure out how to define myself and my worth without him.

neverknewyou posted on my "Observations" thread in SAA:


I really thought about this question last night. I've never been cheated on. Dumped horribly, used for sex, emotionally abused, date raped, but never cheated on. I do believe that if someone is remorseful and repentant, and demonstrates that, that they are worthy of forgiveness. However, it is the wronged person's choice to forgive. If the shoe was on the other foot here, and it was my choice to forgive my H, I'd like to say unequivocably yes...but it would depend on his actions, the things I could see and by extension, believe. Going further with another example, though, if someone purposely harmed one of my girls, I don't know that I could forgive that, even in the presence of remorse and repentance.

To me, that makes 2 points - #1 - I'm not a very good Christian (although I never professed to be) if I can't extend grace and forgiveness as God does for us (or, conversely, if I can't accept His forgiveness for my actions); and #2 - what I did, having an A, DID harm my girls. I destroyed their family and removed the presence of their father from their lives every day.

OK, 3 points - #3 - are there things that people do that are unforgiveable? Could I forgive someone who murdered someone I love? And if the pain of an A to the betrayed is worse than the death of a child, worse than the pain of rape - which is how it has been described - how does that change the equation?

I've never felt "better" than anyone else, but I do think I hold myself to a higher standard than I do others. I admit to having perfectionist tendencies. But I've always felt like it's OK to hold myself to a higher standard, because I can't control others' behavior - I CAN control mine.

I'll give you an example. If someone on my staff at work screws up - they make a mistake - I can see what needs to be done to fix it, and quickly move past it. I don't berate them for the mistake, and a lot of times I'll take the blame for it with the higher-ups...after all, ultimately the section I am in charge of is my section, so ultimately my responsibility. If I make a mistake at work, however, I feel like a major screwup/dumb@zz...I realize that's a very minor thing compared to something as huge as an A, so I don't know if the example fits.

I simply feel like I should have been able to avoid failing my M. And in my mind, I feel like my H held me to a higher standard (I know, that's a DJ of him, but that's how I feel), that I was different from other women.

That's probably a confusing explanation, but I know that I have to forgive myself for what I did. Enough people have told me that if I don't see myself worthy of forgiveness, how can I expect anyone else to forgive me?

So never, I know I keep getting stuck in punish-myself mode. I know I'm not the only person to ever take the wrong path, to make the wrong decision. I guess I'm still at the point where "knowing" and "believing" are 2 different things for me, and I have to work on the "believing" part of the equation now.

Hey, I wrote my own novel! Not that that is anything out of the ordinary for yours truly, lol...I'm actually thinking of writing a book one day. Who knows, right???

Thanks for this, Mrs. V. I can say without a doubt that any thoughts I have of OM are negative and infrequent...I think it's more that H has said in the past how he feels the OM didn't have to suffer for his role in this, and I often wonder if H feels like I've not truly suffered the full consequences of my actions - maybe that's another DJ on my part, I don't know. And OMW may still be clueless as to what a POS she is married to.

I do know that if OM contacted me again, I would rain down all sorts of h377 on him, whether H and I ever make it back together or not.