POJA would say that you shouldn't go to the job until you are both enthusiastic about it.

I think you should tell your husband you just can't keep working these jobs any more and see what he says.

I plan to talk about the job thing this weekend while he is home. I tried a couple of months ago and he just wants me to stay there till he finds a permanent job. But he's been at this contract job for over a year with no signs of anything else.

My other question is, if a spouse does not buy into MB, should the other spouse continue with it? I think the answer is yes, from what I've read, but dh is saying he wants us to both pursue separate interests so that we can both be happier. I have no real desire to do this, but should I just sit around waiting on him when he is out doing his IB? Should I POJA everything? I know I need to stop the AOs and DJs, which so far I am doing well on, but if he doesn't want UA time, what do I do? If he's not coming to me about decisions, should I go to him?

Happiness, I scheduled UA time on my own, made it light, fun activities that would be easy for him to join, and easy to decline without feeling guilt if he wasn't enthusiastic. We have a beautiful walking track in my neighborhood, and this was something we had enjoyed doing together when we were first married. So I would just invite him, and go, until he said, wait up, let me get my shoes, and started joining me. Family Commitment (FC) time was easy to up this way, too, like playing soccer with the kids in the backyard.

Last weekend we talked in more detail about the job issue. He said that he is fine with me quitting at least one of the jobs as soon as we know more about his future, as in as soon as he gets a permanent job. I can live with that until fall, but then it'll be too much with homeschooling starting back up. He agreed that the kids' education is more important, so I think we made headway there.

This weekend we had lots of good family time. But very little for us. He just doesn't seem interested, he's polite but not involved with me. Doesn't really seem to hear what I'm saying, distant, etc. He golfed again and shows no signs of thinking there should be any problem with that. He is now golfing Thur. nights in league while out of town, and then 18 holes every Sun. morning as well. Says the Thur. stuff doesn't meet his need as it's not 18 and it's not with his best buddies.

I feel so lonely. I sometimes wonder if he is viewing p@rn online or something. Maybe it's just my active imagination and all the talk of affairs etc. on here, but I just wonder if that accounts for some of the emotional distance. I see nothing out of order in our phone records at all. But he has viewed P in the past, so I have to wonder. Not sure I should snoop on that, as he would be very offended.

We both seem to be in withdrawal and I don't know how to change that by myself. When I make an effort to get closer, he just seems to tolerate it, not get really involved. That makes me withdraw cause I can't take beating my head against a wall.

Help.

Ok, I have not posted in a LONG time and today may not be the best day because this is the 4th Antiversary of D-Day for me AND I have not read the entire thread(about 7 pages total), BUT.....your last post has set the red flags waving frantically in my mind.

Start snooping and do not stop. WHO is he golfing with? This paragraph sent chills up my spine:

"He just doesn't seem interested, he's polite but not involved with me. Doesn't really seem to hear what I'm saying, distant, etc. He golfed again and shows no signs of thinking there should be any problem with that. He is now golfing Thur. nights in league while out of town, and then 18 holes every Sun. morning as well. Says the Thur. stuff doesn't meet his need as it's not 18 and it's not with his best buddies."

Really now.

It sounds to me as though there may very well be another woman involved. Your H wants both of you to pursue your own interests?
That almost always means there is someone else involved.

I do not want to be an alarmist, but there are many spouses who have been found to be cheating and have given far fewer signs than your H is giving.

The phone bill thing means NOTHING. My H is working with a man who is cheating on his wife for at least the third time. He uses a very cheap pay-as-you-go phone plan. When his wife finds the phone, he throws it away and gets another.

Are you 100% sure he is playing golf? Every minute he is gone? Have you ever shown up unexpectedly at the golf course? You really need to do this.

When a spouse becomes distant and wants more "away" time and exhibits more and more IBs there is almost always a reason.

Another thing to thing to remember is that the MB principles will not work (at least not well), when one spouse is embroiled in an affair. I remember, a couple of years ago, a poster who was also home-schooling and her husband wanted her to go to work. She tried and tried and tried to POJA and meet his needs and like you, felt she was hitting her head against a brick wall.

Well, to no one's surprise, he was having an affair and it turned out not to be his first.

Please, seriously consider this. Do not wait to start snooping. You will get all the help you could ever use on this forum.

Praying for you.

WH2LE

I have also kept an eye on his texts, emails etc. I know he is golfing because I know the guys he goes with and they text each other before and after about who won, making fun of each other, etc. like they've done for years. I really don't suspect an A at all. He has basically said he has trouble feeling the same about me since I tried to separate twice due to our marital problems. Feels I don't love him, questions whether I ever did. I saw a bookmark on his computer titled "My wife doesn't love me anymore, can she fall back in love".

I just really don't know how to do this whole MB thing when I'm feeling so alone and like he could take or leave UA time with me. I feel I've always been the one to try and try. I asked him recently what he thought my needs were, what I've needed in this marriage to be happy, he said he never had thought about it. Just knew he was happy so it didn't occur to him. Huh? He read HNHN, you'll see earlier in the threat that he's not on board, thinks it is just another way to blame men for women's unreasonable demands not being met. Can I really do this all by myself?

I've been reading Dr. H's articles on whether one spouse can save a marriage. He says yes. But he says it takes time and patience and I would slowly need to teach him how to negotiate.

What it seems like with dh is this: if I say that something needs changed, that my needs are not being met, he withdraws as THAT STATEMENT is a love buster for him. He just kind of gives up. He is here in body and is doing much better with the the kids than he used to be, which is helping me, but I don't see him wanting to work on us. He said he doesn't want to do any program, he just wants to "live our lives". He wants me to learn to relax and be happy (without his help).

So can I still slowly use MB principles and effect change? I am doing much better on AOs and DJs. But he doesn't seem interested in the UA time. He'll do what I plan for us, but he won't plan stuff and if it interferes with golf, forget it.

Sounds like a start While you do what you need to do to get your ducks in a row....

I say make him fall in love with you, you do the work right now, every relationship needs one person to be stronger from time to time, make him want to give up other things to spend time with you, I have a strong willed man independent who doesn't seem to need anything........but you know they do, they want it, need it.
Once he is on board and having the feelings he needs to have for you it will get easier for you, have you watched the movie "Fireproof"
Do it alone, don't tell him and watch him change..............it's a win, win..........
I am a golf fantic as well, but it doesn't mean we don't want a loving relationship, figure out little ways to be connected, little touches, looks, kisses.......little things go a long way.........showing him you appreciate him, admiration, conversation.......ask him about his passion, golf, learn the lingo........better yet surprise him with a few lessons for yourself.......maybe you could eventually use this as your recreational companionship.........just a thought.......
don't worry about getting to much for yourself right now..........
he will take care of that when he feels more connected.

A couple of hurdles for us is he's out of town except weekends, and when he is here part of that is golf time. We do talk nightly on the phone but it seems more and more forced. Also, I have depression (genetic, runs very strongly in my family) and I'm at a low point with it. Just started on a new AD, so maybe that will help, but I sure wish he could be the strong one right now.

My other issue is that I feel I've always been the heavy lifter in the relationship. It doesn't seem to get me anywhere except for him feeling content. Right now he's not so content since he knows I'm not, but if I go back to just taking care of his needs without expecting anything, he'll just be content again. And I won't be.

OK so while talking on the phone last night H could tell I sounded down. When he asked about it I told him that I was worried about this weekend because last weekend we spent very little time together and all week he has sounded detached on the phone. I also said the ongoing IB with the golf continues to hurt me. Also told him I know from bank statements that he is buying beer several times per week while away, and I'm worried about that.

H's father was an alcoholic. I made it clear early on that I didn't want alcohol in the house and I would not remain married if he became an alcoholic. Imhad some concerns during college about his drinking and didn't want those problems in marriage. He has always honored that request. He might have a beer or two when we go out to dinner, or we might have wine together at times, but now I'm concerned about this drinking alone stuff. He says he just gets bored being alone during the week.

When I asked what he thought about only having a drink or two when we are together, and not drinking alone anymore, he said no, he feels he should be able to have a few beers after work if he wants.

On the bright side, after I got really upset and said I'd be sleeping on the couch while he's home this weekend, and to let me know when he wants a real marriage, he said no, let's just start over tomorrow and have a fun weekend together. Said he was looking forward to time w me and we should enjoy it.

So tonight, we did. Had a nice time talking (not totally UA, kids around) and nice SF time. So should I just try to encourage UA time for a while? What about the IB?

Finding, there are a few excellent articles about alcoholism here on the site, because Dr. H work in alcohol treatment for a time. I encourage you to read the articles so you'll have knowledgeably reasoned through your options, if drinking does stay an issue in your marriage.

You may want to look up OurHouse's threads, she had a similar concern about her H, and Steve considered it at that point a lifestyle issue that would dissolve as their lifestyle changed. I'm a member in Alanon, a support group for family and friends of alcoholics. The group is mentioned in one of Dr. H's articles. It would help you with the depression, along with the medical help you're getting. And for me I found it really deepened my faith and my trust in God. I encourage you to try a few meetings in your area and see if it's for you.

I gave notice at my job today. Told dh by text after the fact and said I did it that way so I wouldn't hear his reaction if it was going to be negative. Told him I needed to do this for myself. He did not react badly and seemed fine about it during our phone conversation, so I was impressed with that.

We had a very difficult weekend. It was our son's graduation weekend (we homeschoolers celebrate that as well) and we were taking ds and his gf and the whole fam. out for supper. Before that, dh and kids started a conversation about phones we are getting, new phone plan, etc. Dh became quite adversarial during this conversation. He does that, he thinks to work through something he has to play "devil's advocate". He made 18yos upset and he ended up crying (not common for him) and our 20 year old daughter was also upset and talked to H about how he talks to people and how he always seems angry.

I cried through this but pulled myself together so we could have the dinner. It was rather stilted for all of us, but we got through it OK. (This was a real LB for me that dh would cause this trouble on this day. When dd20 graduated we had an argument that day and he wouldn't even go to the dinner!)

He then golfed 27 holes Sun. morning (got 9 free, texted to see if he could go the extra, at that point I didn't care). He got home, we were civil but that's all the rest of the day. At bedtime he asked if I was going to talk and I said No. I didn't have the emotional energy at that time.

So, at this point, I am going to continue to work on stopping my LBs, but I have decided that I will also start to take care of myself. Quitting the one job will help a lot. I will start exercising, eating better, getting to church more regularly. I will attempt to have UA time with H when I can. I will be neutral about his IB, but if he asks I will tell him I don't like it and wish we would have more time together. I will be the best Mom I can be to our wonderful kids.

Is there anything else I should be doing?

That personality does take anyone else's special day and make it about them, because they need the focus to remain on them at all times. I know that sounds like a DJ but if you can recognize the pattern then you can be mentally prepared next time and not disappointed.

I think every single thing your plan as described is right on target with the "getting your ducks in a row" everyone has been suggesting. Taking good care of yourself, eliminating LBs, getting back into your community for support. Have you read the When to Call It Quits article, it describes the next steps, too.

We had a lot of good UA time last weekend, went to a concert and stayed at a hotel. Dh got home this evening and we had good family time. After that, I got really tired and didn't say much. Dh asked if I was mad, told him no, just drained.

Later, when alone, I asked about my perception that there's a wall between us. Probably a stupid thing to do, obviously there are walls. It was just tha after SF I was feeling that way. He said that he is tired of feeling like the bad guy in this marriage. He is working on getting back his own happiness and self-esteem. So that's withdrawal, right?

I think I veered off course by starting relationship talk at a time that should've just been UA. I need to continue to focus on eliminated AOs, DJs, SDs. I think he took some of my feelings as a DJ. Dr. Harley says one person can make strides in the marriage. But can I make strides with someone who is withdrawn and will only partially engage in the UA time?

Ok. Brace yourself, because I am going against the grain here.

First; neither of you is in love with the other, and it has been this way for a while. Your husband is in the state of withdrawal - this is why your efforts to involve him in recovery have fallen flat.

Over the past few months you have received a lot of support and empathy, and heaps of supportive criticism toward your H. How has that worked so far?

I suggest that you go back and read Enlightened_Ex's posts again. He got shouted down a bit, but he was on track.

You asked how you can convince your husband to get on board. Simple, you begin living the MB model. Keep your side of the street clean, eliminate love busters based on your best understanding of them as explained in the literature. Build him back into conflict or intimacy, and then approach with MB again.

Right now your husband is in withdrawal, he is not in love. He is indeed in love with his IB. He may not be having an affair, but he is cake eating. Be the better cake.

This is going to take a tremendous amount of energy on your part, I would suggest that your first focus be encouraging him to find a job that has him home every night.

Until then, consider it practice.

You're right. The feelings of romantic love are probably not there for either of us.

I am still working on MB principles. I don't think I had any DJs or anything like that all weekend. I made plans for a really nice Father's Day, and we also went out to eat as a couple. Also good SF time. He was a little bit affectionate a few times, and this morning, before he left, he thanked me again for the very nice weekend. Said he wished he could do that for me, but he's just not good at it.

Then, we were talking on the phone tonight. I had a stressful day with all kinds of stuff going on with kids, things I needed to do, etc. With my depression at the level it is right now, even small things can make me feel awful. I've been crying off and on for weeks (not usual for me unless depression is really bad).

So, tonight, I was telling H on the phone about my day. He got more and more quiet. I finally asked what was going on. He said that I make my days harder than they need to be, I need to change my thinking. Said he has WAY more stress than me and he has learned to handle it etc. I said, do you also have depression? He said sometimes probably. I understood what he was trying to say, and I think he was even trying to be helpful, but I just started crying and said I'd talk later.

Texted him that he is probably right about my thinking and I'm trying to work on it. Just feel alone and wanted support. He texted back "it's partly self-inflicted" (my stress).

I guess that was REALLY dumb to expect some kind of support or meeting of ENs when he is in withdrawal. I think it is going to be a HUGE challenge for me to continue on with MB principles without getting anything back. But I'm still committed to it. I just hope these new ADs help, my emotions are right at the surface.

My main question right now: How do I handle his LBs while I'm working on myself? I thought the best thing I could do tonight was say I had to go, as more crying or asking for support would probably be an LB for him. Did I do the right thing? How should I respond in the future when I am trying hard and he is shooting me down?

No.

I used to do that to my FWW. It's a disrespectful judgment that he pulled on you.

The best thing to do is to state your feelings; "I am depressed today."

Don't go into any explanation, just state how you feel. You don't need a logical academic argument to state your feelings.

State your feelings, thank him for listening, then move on.

How do you handle his LBs?

Well, if you are trying to guide him out of withdrawal, you set them aside for a little bit - "Plan A."

Get him on his heels - back into a state of conflict - and then re-approach about making improvements in your marriage.

I have been reading these posts and I am confused about the different approaches.
Everyone keeps saying she should do the Plan A/Plan B approach but:
1. Plan A should only last a MONTH
2. Plan B should then be executed

Are you even preparing for a Plan B?

It seems to me that yes, he is cake eating and one problem of Plan A going on to long is that her tank will totally go empty and then she won't even want to continue. Her taker will go nuts.

How long is she suppose to "plan A" him? She has already stated that she is on the edge of giving up...

MB principles is NOT, I will meet all their EN and not LB them till kingdom comes and they decide one day to get out of a state of withdrawal. That looks more like unconditional love...

Thanks for the clarification, I think it would help her as well.

Me-33
H-39
1 DS, 2 DD

I did great for two weekends. Then this weekend, dh was at his Mom's fixing her mower half the day Sat., then needed to go to sleep early to get up for golf, which took half of Sunday.

I guess my Taker came out big time. I didn't want to talk to him the rest of Sunday. We had no UA time and he's perfectly fine with that. At bedtime he asked what he'd done and I said he didn't spend any time with me and he leaves in the morning. Turned into a big argument with him saying he is getting to the end of his rope and leaving sounds better and better. Asked if I wanted a D, I said no, I want a happy marriage. Both engaged in LBs. He just feels I want to control everything and nothing is good enough.

I made an appt today for IC. All I can think to do is to work on myself, work on getting this depression under control, and in the meantime either live by MB principles or just SHUT UP. I realize I have not forgiven him for my perception of his neglect in the past. I'm working on that with a Bible study about forgiveness.

He didn't want to talk tonight, which I understand. I feel like Cr@p tonight. The new ADs don't seem to be helping yet. I know perimenopause is not helping this either. May need to get hormone levels checked. I dk what else to do.

I want this marriage to work. I want my kids to have an intact family. I still love him. I just feel that I'm pushing him so far away it may not be recoverable.