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I guess the point I am making is that an affair is love story between 2 people. It is not any different than any 2 people falling in love. HUH? As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. BTW, IRL I know of one affairage that lasted 5 years and ended with one of the two having another A. I don't know that I have ever heard of any affairage with a happy ending except for Dr Harley's boat story where the man said his affairage had been a good M but if he could turn back time he wouldn't have had the A because of how it ruined everything else in his life, financial, relationship with kids, etc. I know of only one couple that were a result of an A... My father-in-law cheated on my mother-in-law and he married his OP. They are still married; however, I believe my Father-in-law now regrets his A because of how it affected my H, who now also has a history of cheating himself. My father-in-law tends to blame himself for my H's cheating issues. He feels that my H thought it was okay to cheat because he saw his Father cheat on his Mother. Now my children may also carry on the cheating tradition as they have seen their own Father do it to me. As a result, my Father-in-law's story is NOT a "love story." It is a tragedy that caused many people pain and will likely cause pain for generations to come.
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This is for any lurker who was upset by "swan"'s assertation that affairs are love stories and many are successful... Dr Harley posts to this man that despite his best efforts, he usually can't save those in affairages: (oneoftwo is in an affairage and his W has cheated on him BTW) oneoftwo:
I've read through your original question and the responses you've received, and almost to a responder, they are warning you about what happens to relationship that originated as an affair. I have counseled hundreds of these couples and am presently counseling couples that married after an affair, and I can tell you from first-hand experience, and their own unsolicited comments, that if they had put the same effort into their marriages, they would be happily married to their original spouses today.
While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years. You probably have one chance in 100 of turning this marriage into a successful relationship, and you're off to a terrible start in spite of your love and commitment.
I have a theory about why marriage after an affair is so unsuccessful, but the fact that they're unsuccessful is well documented. My main contention is that for whatever reasons, those who have affairs tend not to follow one of my cardinal principles for marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). They tend to do what they please without considering each other's feelings. While that may not apply to both members of the relationship, it almost always applies to at least one of them. Your friend's affair with another man in the beginning your your relationship is evidence that she's not thinking about your interests.
I try very hard to keep these marriages together, in spite of the fact that there is such a low probability of success. If I thought I would fail, I wouldn't be wasting my time. And yet, I have had very little success. I keep thinking that I will eventually find a way to succeed.
There are so many obsticles to overcome. In addition to failure to follow the POJA, there is also a marked failure to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty. They tend to be incredibly dishonest, in spite of the fact that they start out thinking they can look right into each other's very souls.
But there is one other issue that is terribly relevant to your situation: Blended families. I read a research report recently that claimed that only 15% of all marriages with children from another relationship survive for 25 years (on average about 50% of all marriages survive for 25 years). Again, from my perspective, the culprit is failure to follow the POJA. Instead of making joint decisions regarding the children, unilateral decisions are made. This ultimately leads to fights and constant turmoil. After the children are grown, however, the conflict does not end. In many cases, advantages continue to be given to children by the natural parent at the expense of the step-parent.
I'm sure that your counselor has been encouraging your wife to negotiate with you so that you can reach a joint agreements regarding her children, but to no avail. And I've experienced the same thing. In spite of a blended family couple's willingness to follow the POJA when I talk to them, when it comes to a decision that will affect the welfare of their children, the commitment is broken.
The advice you have been receiving on the Forum focuses attention on your affair. I've written quite a bit on that topic, and many of the responders have read it. In general, I warn people to avoid an affair because if the very same problems you are facing. And if a vast amount of research and my own professional experience can be trusted, it happens to 99% of those who try to make an affair last.
While it's very unlikely that you will follow my advice because you're in love with "Jane," leaving this relationship, and restoring your relationship with your first wife is the wisest choice. But if you want to know how you can be the 1% that thrives in spite of the obsticles you face, my advice is that you both learn to follow the POJA with every decision you make, including those with the children. If those decisions are made with mutual care, you may be able to figure out how to make the rest of your relationship work.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
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I guess the point I am making is that an affair is love story between 2 people. It is not any different than any 2 people falling in love. Not so fast, swans. You are flat out wrong. There ARE glaring differences.
Affairees bring a severe lack of marriage skills to the relationship.
Affairees bring an alarming disrespect for marriage.
LINK These are the defects he lists for marriages between the spouse and the OP.
1) The intervention of Reality: Divorce in these marriages tends to take place very early in the marriage. During th affair, the infidel and perhaps the affairee are in a state of intensely stimulating unreality. The second marriage itself seems to be a swithc that throws the lights on and illuminates the mess that has accumulated. It is as if the romance had seemed real, while the divorce didnt. Only after the remarriage did the divorce become real enough for the lovers to see that it was all a horrible mistake. The affairs that become marriages typically were so intense they were never questioned at all. During the divorce, reality never set in sufficiently to let the romance be evaluated and questioned. The romance was so romantic on one ever got around to asking if it was sane.
2) Guilt.. People who have wrecked a family have inflicted much pain, and they have a lot they could feel guilty about. As reality sets in, they see many things they were overlooking. They may have felt no guilt during the affair and divorce, and the guilt they feel after the romantic marriage may come as a suprise to both of them. It is generally assumed that people who dont permit themselves to be happy must be feeling guilty about somethingm and are unhappy as a way of punishing themselves for their misdeeds. One aspect of guilt is the rluctance to enjoy ones ill-gotten gains. Another aspect of guilt is the urge to return to the scene of the crime and in some way make amends. As a romantic newlywed resists the joys of the ex-mate who was deserted so blitheyly, the new mate can feel disoriented and betrayed.
3) Disparity of sacrifice... Divorces are expensive luxuries. Whatever the financial cost, the emotional cost is far greater. Anyone after losing that much, will be drained, exhausted and depressed. It is particularly difficult when the exhausted survivor of a debilitating divorce marries the triumphant winner of the struggle. If the romantic partner is marrying for the first time, and especially if the courtship has been treacherous and insecure, the new mate will be ecstatic. A new couple may feel a disparity in what had to be sacrificed to bring them together. The partner who has never been divorced may have difficulty understanding the complexity of emotions toward the previous family.
4) Expectations.. Then there is the feeling that anything that cost this much emotionally had damn well better be worth it. The greater the sacrifices, the greater the expectations from the new marriage. Now that the promised land has been reached, it should flow with milk and honey. But instead, the new couple are just 2 tired warriors with no fight left in them. Whatever these people were expecting, the best they are likey to find now is the ordinariness of real life, the dubious peace between glorious battles. The more people enjoy the battles involved in wrecking and escaping marriages, the less they are likely to enjoy the business as usual of the new marriage that was the destination of it all.
5) General Distrust of Marriage.. Of course, anyone who has been unhappily married is likely to develop a strong distrust of the institution of marriage. People whose marriages fell apart during affairs are likey to end up distrusting marriages rather than distrusting affaris. People who distrust marriage have a vey hard time being in one.
6) Distrust of affairee..It might seem appropriate for someone to go out with them, or even to marry them, but not quite appropriate for someone to have an affair with them. Affairs are considered dishonerable acts, and peope who feel guilty for having affairs believe that they are dishonorable and their partner must be dishonorable too.
7) Divided Loyalties..During the affair tnd the divorce, the romantic couple isolate themselves. It is not only the betrayed spouses who are erased from awareness, but also the children, the families, friends, anyone who attempts to pull the romantic couple from the quicksand of their affair. But after the remarriage, there may be a longing to reestablish connections with families and friends and this may be more difficult than expected. Each close relationship and some that were amazingly casual may have to be renegotiated in view of the hurt caused to others.
8) The nature of infidels.... People who get themselves into affairs have some specific characteristics that must influence the course of their subsequent marriages. Each kind of infidel is different. Most of those who end up marrying an affair partner are romatics who drift hypnotically through this romantic high without taking much responsibility. Romantic remarriage seldom works, not only because of th unrealistic nature of romance, but also because of the reality-avoiding nature of romantics.
9)The nature of affairees.... Affairees want whatever they want from a relationship, jsut as everyone else does, but what makes them unusual is that they seek their goals among the married rather than the single. They choose partners who are not in position to marry them, and who are engaging in the relationship at great risk. People like this are clearly angry with marriage, and perhaps with the opposite sex. They believe marriage doesnt work, and they demonstrate that by breaking up another marriage as they find a partner for themselves.
10) Romance.. People who believe in the chemistry of romance dont bother to learn much about the physics of relationships. When the romance begins to fade, romantics know little about how to solve those problems that they have relied on romance to transcend. It is painful to watch a romantic relationship dissolve. It happens so suddenly, and so totally. These people have alredy demonstrated that they would rather get divorced than learn physics, so it is far easier for them to follow the same pattern.
11) Scapegoating of cuckolds... During the affair and divorce, the romantic couple conspired to convince each other that the defective marriage was the fault of the cuckold. To acknowledge otherwise, now that remarriage has taken place, seems a betrayal of the rescue fantasies that fed the romance.
12) Unshared history... Even if the new marriage survives all of these obstacles, there is one further characteristic of all second marriages: The absence of a shared history that brings familiarity torelationships that began earlier in life. If a romantic marriage has wrecked a previous marriage or two, the history of the relationship is painful to both partners, and possibly somewhat embarrasing to others. The new partners keep thinking about it and justifying it, but it is hard to talk about lightly, in the familiar, safe manner of people who can tell their old war stories without guilt. However intense their commitment, people who share a guilty past arent totally rpoud of their new marriage.
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XH and OW are happy together and that XH has no regrets about leaving my daughter. Any person who can break his/her marriage vows without any regret(s) ... is very cold-hearted.
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swans, I do believe you are an OW and in the A fog. You know of a lot of affairs that have lasted beyone two years? God, what kind of ppl are in your life circle? That shows that birds of a feather. I know of two couples in long term affairs and here is what happened. My father was having an A for ten years, his OW faked a pregnancy and he left my mother and us to be with her. I went to live with them when I was in my teens. To say that their M was dramatic is an understatement. My father became a serious alcoholic and so did my step-mom and my father constantly reminder her what a wh*re she was and that my mother was the best woman he had ever had. He constantly threw up in her face that she never compared to my mother and attempted several times to come back to my mother but she wouldn't take him back. Yes, he stayed M to my step-mom but their M was a disaster until he died. It was a train wreck. The other AP couple that I know of is my uncle. My uncle was M to my aunt for over 30 years but his A was ongoing for at least 20 of those years. When my aunt died of cancer, my uncle M the OW and they are now M. My uncle is cheating on her of course and she tolerates and puts up with whatever he does always has and always will. Of course they will stay M because this woman is my uncle's door mat and has been for decades.
To say that an A is sometimes true love is further from any truth. True love doesn't hide out in hotel rooms sneaking time away from real life. True love shouts from roof tops and shows the world their love. Playing seconds to another woman isn't about love, it's about not knowing that you deserve to be number one in your man's life. You deserve to be his princess at family gatherings, and you deserve for everyone in that man's life to know that you are the one he truly loves and stands by in real life.
Coming to this board and posting your opinions is a slap in BS face and you should really examine yourself and why your felt the need to share your "insight". I am years away from D-Day and MB has helped my DH and I build a M made in Heaven. We have an amazing M because of MB and no other skank-ho can enter it again.
Last edited by cobol_girl; 04/29/11 12:21 PM.
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Hi,
I have been reading this forum for some time now, 2 years actually.
My daughter's H left her for OW about 2 years ago and he is still together with this OW. Fortunately my daughter and XWH did not have kids so there is no need for contact. They divorced soon after the affair and they have not spoken since.
I happen to know about her XH being with OW because I am still in touch my my daughter's ex in laws who live in my same town, are wonderful and never supported their son and his OW.
I like MB concept and I am glad my daughter did the right thing by cutting out contact right away and D soon after.
I do have a comment however, about the way MB sees the affairs.
Unfortunately they do last and in my experience I have seen countless people stay with the OW or OM for years.
I truly think that the WS and the OP develop a love relationship that is very similar to any other love relationship there is in this world. They become fond of eachother and the more time they spend together the more they fall in love and stay together.
I know there are countless WS who swear they were unhappy during the A, but there are many others who either don't say or who were and are happier in the A than in the M.
The proof of it is that they stay with OP and do not seek their spouse ever again.
We also have to keep in mind that people who cheat have a different set of values from those who do not and from the BS/
They do not see cheating as wrong (many actually choose to cheat, others might say they fell into the affair without knowing how it happened). But again, some consciously choose to cheat.
Those have no remorse nor feel any guilt. Especially if there are no kids and or if the kids are grown ups. They just feel they love someone else and that the BS is an adult and should deal with it.
I don't even know why I felt the urge to post this. I do like MB a lot and I am a great fan.
Maybe I just feel that the newly betrayed have to understand that many many affairs last a long long time and that, if there are no kids or they are grown up the chance of the WS coming back or asking to recover the M are very very slim.
Also, the newly betrayed who is facing a cold and distant WS(one that is basically plan Bing them rather than the other way around) should know that this type of WS is gone pretty much for good.
These conclutions come thru experience (I am over 60)and reading here since my daughter went thru the affair and the D (2 years or so).
Thank you for listening Here is another example that this is incorrect. Friend couple we know married 11 years, one small child. Hes older and wife is a lot younger. They just announced divorce due to husbands affair with neighbor. Find out that their marriage actually was a product of their own affair years earlier. The husband broke up his original family for an affair and now again his new family is breaking up because of the same thing.
BH: 46
FWW: 44
3 DD: 20,17,11
Married 24 years
PA/EA: 5/08
DDay: 6/08
NC: 8/08
Previous EA 1998 confessed 8/08
In Recovery
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Swans....where do you get your definition of "Love" as in Love Story? Let me paraphrase a really popular one.... Love is patient (YEESH) Love in kind (OUCH!) It does not envy, boast or is proud (Hmm...) Love is not self-seeking (BIG ONE) It is not easily angered (DANG) Love does not delight with evil, but REJOICES with the TRUTH (WOW...DOUBLE WOW!) Love ALWAYS protects, trusts, hopes and preserves (Hmmmm....)  Does an A resemble ANY of the above? Please read the entire verse its very interesting, 1 Corinthians 13
BS(me)
FWH
M '91
DS x 3
Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.
Col. 2:8 (NLT)
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 Also, . And then, I disagree with especially as Swan's opinion of is . Oh, and did I mention ?
BS: Me, 27
WS: Her, 24
EA: October
PA: 11/22/10
Moved out 12/3/10
Moved back in mid-January.
In tentative recovery. Is that the sun I see, breaking through the fog?
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BS(me)
FWH
M '91
DS x 3
Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.
Col. 2:8 (NLT)
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swans,
While in my stupid affair I would have said that it was a love story.
I was an idiot.
There was not ever any love there. I would have sworn there was at the time, but I snapped out of my stupidity and clearly saw what was there
it was a fantasy
I made it all up in my own head, because my OM was never - and I was never - going to leave a spouse for something as transitive as what we "had".
It was an illusion
a fantasy
that the grass was not only greener on the other side, but that I could somehow be a completely different person because the fantasy I had was what I WANTED it to be
and never the reality of what was truly existing in the world.
I was an idiot.
So is your DD's stupid Ex-H, and so are his parents because they are supporting this ridiculous relationship. They support it because they are ACCEPTING it, and then telling YOU how lovely the affairees are together, how they get along, how it was love all the time.....
And you are also not on the right path if you for one moment that a "love" that began in illicit circumstances, for selfish reasons, and in the destruction of another relationship
could come close to anything called a "love story".
It is nothing but an affair that lasted longer
with two people who have met the selfish desires of themselves and one another.
It is, and will always be
a relationship with a foundation of crap.
In My Very Humble Opinion.
Schoolbus
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Unfortunately they do last and in my experience I have seen countless people stay with the OW or OM for years. Some affairs/affairages do last...I don't know about countless but some do last. The proof of it is that they stay with OP and do not seek their spouse ever again. That is not proof of anything other than they stay together. Unless you are a fly on the wall behind closed door (as well as can read minds and hearts) you have no idea what the relationship is like between APs. That goes for any relationship. I know several WSs who are begging their BSs to take them back and the BSs are telling them to take a hike so they may stay with the OP for that reason...but again no one knows the real story...APs do lie ya know.  We also have to keep in mind that people who cheat have a different set of values from those who do not and from the BS/
They do not see cheating as wrong (many actually choose to cheat, others might say they fell into the affair without knowing how it happened). But again, some consciously choose to cheat.
Those have no remorse nor feel any guilt. Especially if there are no kids and or if the kids are grown ups. They just feel they love someone else and that the BS is an adult and should deal with it. Well there are definetly some very screwed up people in the world that fit this description but that does not apply to every (and probably not most) WSs. Most WSs know cheating is wrong or else they wouldn't hide it. If a WS is truly the heartless user as you describe, then a BS will be blessed to be away from such a trainwreck. I don't even know why I felt the urge to post this. I do like MB a lot and I am a great fan.  Maybe I just feel that the newly betrayed have to understand that many many affairs last a long long time and that, if there are no kids or they are grown up the chance of the WS coming back or asking to recover the M are very very slim. Yet we have stories of WSs who come back and ask their BS for a chance at recovery...go figure.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Dr Harley claims he doesn't know of a SINGLE affairage in all his years in this business that didn't regret it - so much for true luuuurve  : radio clip about affairages
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I do have a comment however, about the way MB sees the affairs.
Unfortunately they do last and in my experience I have seen countless people stay with the OW or OM for years. Hi Swan, Sorry to hear about your daughter. I don't think that this is necessarily unusual. there are many that stay for years. Dr. Harley and many others I have read note this. They say that (I'm pretty sure I read Dr. Harley say this) that most affairs break around the 5 yr mark or before, and never make it to marriage. Those that do have a 70% divorce rate. So 30% of those *do* end up staying together. The reality is that 30% is a fairly high number. I truly think that the WS and the OP develop a love relationship that is very similar to any other love relationship there is in this world. They become fond of eachother and the more time they spend together the more they fall in love and stay together. I have had in my family, and had many people I know, witnessed Extra marital affairs. I have 5 brothers and sisters, I have been married the longest except for my parents (52years). Of all of us, my mother, myself and my youngest sister are the *only ones* who have not cheated. I have not seen happiness come from one single affair. My oldest sister is a serial cheater. She has (maybe the record here?) had over 20 affairs over 3 husbands and cheated more on the OM's when she was with them. She is a train-wreck. My parents made it work through sheer force of will I think, and my dad's affair was after we had grown up and were moved out. My dad was sincerely sorry for his affair (the only one in the family who was). My sister left her husband for another woman No one was happy. ever. not even during the affair. My wife was miserable during both her affairs. I know, because I killed her with kindness during them. The fondness that grows is rooted in the lie, I believe,and the longer the lie goes on, the deeper seated the roots become. I know there are countless WS who swear they were unhappy during the A, but there are many others who either don't say or who were and are happier in the A than in the M.
The proof of it is that they stay with OP and do not seek their spouse ever again. We had friends who have been married 12 years. She is the WW and he is the OM. They say they are happy and put a great face on when in public and around most friends. She has never been repentant about the A. they had 3 kids together (she had 2 from her 1st H) and 2 of theirs were born out of wedlock. Trust me, they do *not* put the word fun in dysfunctional... They know deep down that their marriage is rooted in lies, distrust, infidelity and betrayal. In fact, their sex life is more dysfunctional than any I have ever met. The husband requires sex 7 days a week as a way of ensuring his wife won't cheat on him. She is a chronic liar. So much so that they live in a type of d-day environment almost every day. But you'd never know it by talking to them. We also have to keep in mind that people who cheat have a different set of values from those who do not and from the BS/
They do not see cheating as wrong (many actually choose to cheat, others might say they fell into the affair without knowing how it happened). But again, some consciously choose to cheat.
Those have no remorse nor feel any guilt. Especially if there are no kids and or if the kids are grown ups. They just feel they love someone else and that the BS is an adult and should deal with it. These are deeply flawed people that feel no remorse for sin. they know their love for someone else (if it is love at all) is a lie and it's wrong. cheating is an escapist mentality. Cheaters leave reality for a fantasy. Anecdotal evidence *is evidence*, but do we really have the training and skills to understand it properly? Someone mentioned being a fly on the wall and seeing what goes on behind closed doors.... More than that, can we see into their hearts and minds? They may even outwardly express happiness and trust to each other, but what do these persons feel or think? Marriages built off breaking trusts never have a good start and rarely have a good ending. CV
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If you flew into my town during the last week of January, you would swear that this is a cold and miserable place to live.
Your evidence would be anecdotal. Because "while you were there" SB's town had terribly cold weather.
Someone else who visited me the last week of August would report I lived in the "hottest place on earth".
And yet another who came in May would think this was summer camp, and the most glorious weather in the world!
I can tell you from the INSIDE that the weather here can stink, it can be glorious, and it can change at a moment's notice.
Only if you are IN the relationship, do you know the inside story. Appearances are deceptive, aren't they?
SB
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Swans, First of All let me tell you how much empathy I have for you and your daughter for the pain her ex-husband has visited upon you both. I guess we all learn from our life experiences and those of the people we observe. You are on the board of countless betrayed spouses. Possibly the biggest sample size of its kind in the world. Add what you are being told to your experience and you will GROW in knowledge and understanding.
A friend of mine shared a letter written to him by his ex-wife. They divorced without children after being childhood sweethearts and spending six years together in marriage both working in the Peace Corps. SO, here it is ten years post divorce. BOTH remarried. My friend had no contact with his ex-wife post divorce. He now had two daughters. Ex-wife wrote him a lengthy letter. She admitted her affair and that she married her partner. She was very successful in business as was her husband. She then went on to write to my friend that even though she had the affair, married the man she "fell in love with and had the affair with" that now ten years later with her husband asleep upstairs in her home that she knew she would always be married to my friend. The letter blew him away and he correctly never responded....
Essentially the letter said "We appear happy to each other and to the outside world... but in truth - I never stopped being your wife."
This is the journey a spouse that re-marries their affair partner embarks on.
I am watching it today in my 30 year old daughter who is preparing to marry her affair partner. I don't see it as a love story. I see it as a tragedy. Left in the middle in my 4 year old grandson and a thoroughly damaged ex-husband (my ex-son in law). Love stories do not destroy families.
Love stories are not just about two people. That is only in the movies. Love stories are about love that makes others benefit by love. Fantasy love stories are simply fables.
Maybe that new marriage of your ex-son in law will last. Some divorced people stop looking for perfection. But here are the odds... The cheater will cheat AGAIN. There is a BUZZ that cheaters like. Its only a matter of time. Why? Because the cheater never learned what they did wrong. The first time an attraction occurs and is reciprocated in the slightest....
Ask anyone who quit smoking in the last ten years if they can resist if they begin to smoke one cigarette each day for a month... They know they will be stuck back buying packs at the gas pump.
Swans,my heart goes out to you and your daughter. When my first marriage failed due to an affair on the part of my first wife I did not date for many, many years. Then my mother finally quietly said to me one day... "God did not intend for you to live alone." As a Catholic being the only divorced child of four left me very alienated and bitter. That comment from my mother led me to find someone good for me. Now I struggle with infidelity from my second wife. But maybe I am going to win this time. Perhaps your daughter needs a gentle reminder that she is not meant to live alone forever. Perhaps not.
But... the more you stop viewing her ex-husband as the winner (he has lost more than he will ever know) of a love story award... the easier it will be to let go.
Forgive the stupid POS. It will be easier for YOU and YOUR DAUGHTER if you realize he has built his life on a lie.
And he knows it deep down.
Just my thoughts....
Hurting Turkey
ME: BH age 56 Recovering Verbal Abuser
SHE:WW age 49
Married 13 years
Hers: 22 and 18 years
Mine: 30, 28 and 22 years
Ours: 11 years
She still won't admit A # 2 despite overwhelming evidence
Considered Plan B but was told not to by Steve H. since A is over
to hang on to Plan A. Grateful for the people on this board (even though they tire of telling me what I don't want to hear!)
Not in Recovery but not in H*ll.
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Hi Swans! Sorry about what happened with your daughter and her affair mongering xwh.
I am here to shed my personal story on this and what went down. We had a good marriage, just built gorgeous home, and a beautiful young son and were trying for another child when I discovered my xh was cheating, and trust me, there was no reason at all for why he did it.
The most horrible lies were told by him, betrayals, and after two years of unbelievable pain, I finally filed for divorce and let him go down that path of adultery.
My xh married one of the two women he was seeing, and one whom he called his "soul mate" and who he said would "be the woman who would raise our child" and horrible, vile things that should never be said to a good woman, wife, and mother (me).
in the end, the day after our divorce was final, he quickly made plans to marry the ow, as she was very pregant at that time with their affairage baby.
Happiness didn't last in affairland. He began cheating on her within 2 years, begged me to come back to him one day at that 2 year mark, and even built a newer home supposedly for them, but he confided in me when he showed me the home (he lurede me there saying that my son had to be immediatley picked up as it was an emergency so I went out to where the home was being built to pick him up), and the home was built instead TO MY PREFERENCES, as we'd shared many times over the years what kind of dream home i'd like one day when I was far older and we had the money for. He then had the $ and what did he do? He built that home with me in mind, NOT his affair wife.
We never reconciled as I saw/see him still as pond scum. He cheated horribly on her disrespecting the affair wife at every turn and today, they are now divorced. Yep.
It was ugly. Really ugly. The sad part is, that when you immediately enter another relationship after cheating and infidelity, you never can mourn anything or learn from anything or even really process what it is you are truly feeling, in an affair you simply run hot on primal emotions and hormones secreted from the brain.
After about 2 years or so when those begin to die down a bit, the pain and sadness and eventual grief and mourning from the old relationship they hurriedly left and destroyed with their affair will begin to come crashing down upon them.
It might happen a little at a time, or all at once, but your daughters' former cheating husband and the skanky other woman he is shacked up with are skanking on borrowed time. The end clock is now running on their affair and they don't know it.
I know of only one affair couple, and they are both "stuck" in their situation because of children, x spouses, crazy visitation schedules, and demands for money and time. It is not a happy marriage, and It's filled with chaos and stress. Everybody we know who knows that other couple I speak of who are in an affairmarriage, they talk about them behind their backs, and the husband has confided in others that he wished he could just have peace in his life and wished he didn't get into this "mess". Yes, he called it a "mess".
For that is what it is. A complicated, painful, ugly mess. You can choose to do that with your limited time on earth living, or you can try to do something beautiful and loving. Your choice, your soul, but YES, affairs do not make for any happy marriage at all, and most DO END and end nastily in divorce after a short while.
My xh and his soul mate ow? Oh well. They were married 5 years before she separated from him off on and and they divorced this last january. Funny how our marriage was much longer, happier, than theirs, but then again, my xh was somewhat of a decent and normal man back then, a mere shell today of who he was once. Truly sad.
Change happens by listening and then starting a dialogue with the people who are doing something you don't believe is right. ~Jane Goodall
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Forgot to add, their child from the affair has suffered serious emotional problems from their constant arguing and the stress of all that went on. Child even failed kindergarten as a result and has had to be hospitalized on occasion for depression. A mere baby has to deal with all that courtesy of two horrible, selfish parents she has. I pray for her all the time.
Change happens by listening and then starting a dialogue with the people who are doing something you don't believe is right. ~Jane Goodall
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A new couple may feel a disparity in what had to be sacrificed to bring them together. The partner who has never been divorced may have difficulty understanding the complexity of emotions toward the previous family. and 4) Expectations.. Then there is the feeling that anything that cost this much emotionally had damn well better be worth it. The greater the sacrifices, the greater the expectations from the new marriage. If anyone still doesn't understand why Mel Gibson made those screaming foaming-at-the-mouth rants at his affair partner Oksana, this is exactly why. He sacrificed a long-term marriage with 7 children for her. She could never make up that loss and he finally realized that. This is why so many affairages fail - because the return on investment never comes close to the cost.
Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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thank you to all who posted here in response to my post.
I am not OW for sure so rest assure I am not pulling anyone's leg.
I have to admit that I have some reservation on my daughter's (DD) behavior with her XWH.
I did say that my DD had a good M, but in reality, looking at it she did not. As I said they could not have kids and it depended upon him not her. She really never forgave him for that even if it was something physiological and he could not do anythig about it.
Especially the last 3-4 years of their M she really was obsessed about artificiall means of getting pregnant and then finally adoption.
He did not want to adopt and nor get a sperm donor.
They had issues. I can see why he got tired.
Apperently the OW can't have kids herself so kids are not an issue in the A.
Also, the XWH and OW are not married. They are dating and live each on their own, not together.
I have asked my DD to post on this forum many times, but she says she is too busy with work,
She really does work a lot, I think she can be defined as a workaholic. She is totally into her career, works 12 hours a day and now she also has started to travel a lot for her job.
I guess this keeps her mind away from it all.
Thank you again for your posts. They helped.
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Swans, can you go into a little more detail about how you feel our postings have 'helped'? Your original post was a basic statement about waywards being happy in their wayward relationships, and how they could really be in love. We have outlined the toxicity of these relationships. So when you say that our posts have helped, do you mean that you now understand how the affairees likely are not happy in a true, soul-deep sense of the word?
I just didn't get the impression from your original post that you were looking for help.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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