Anyone who takes offense to it, or thrown off by it shouldn't ask me about it. I know what it means to me.

It means I was raised almost exclusively by my mother. It means almost my entire education was given by women, under the rules of conduct built for women. This reshaped world means that the kinetic way which young boys interact with the world - which does not fit the feminized classroom - leads to young boys getting diagnosed with ADD/ADHD twice as often as young girls (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html}.

Are there going to be women who are offended by this? Sure. And I invite them to come and explore the statement, and why it is that it offends them.

I know why my wife is offended. It's because your quote is provided without context and is easily misunderstood. It's not because she's a feminist or hates masculinity or anything like that. She'd probably agree with a great deal of what you have to say.

Anyway, I invite you to consider if your communication could be made less subject to misunderstanding.

I want to work of a couple of comments through the thread here, and relate it to core beliefs, values, boundaries, or N.U.T.s.

(I'm not HUGE on the N.U.T.s term, but I understand in a world of man-children, it's one way to get their attention)


Here's the funny thing, I don't think this is quite it. What has happened, is that the workplace and educational system have been reshaped to benefit women, and it has turned men into boys.

What I find disturbing is that it wasn't men who have noticed this the most, it's been women.

It hasn't been men seeking a solution. That's embarrassing. If anyone reading this got to read my go-round w/ CWMI, know this; SHE WAS RIGHT. WE dropped the ball. And there are some who have no interest in picking it back up.

N.U.T. - I will explore and improve my identity as a man.


Just a guess, but I'm thinking that most men feel the same way. It's the methods and motivations we use to define our masculinity that become flawed. Men tend to inflict stereotypes on each other, and ourselves;


We have a lot of these stereotypes ingrained into our being, and our definition of "men." As with all things, these are either wholly embraced, or wholly rejected.

Another time, it would be interesting to have participants post up some of their definitions of masculinity - as we can already see there is varied divergences in beliefs.

N.U.T.s - I recognize my fallibility and imperfection, and strive to improve.

I maintain humility in my development.


As soon as the testes develop, while we are still in the wombs of our mothers, they begin producing testosterone. This begins before brain development is complete, and physiologically drives the way that our brain develops from that point forward.

Testosterone is also one of the "pleasure" chemicals released following competition (bonus points if you can hypothesize why your testosterone levels increase after competing).


N.U.T. - I recognized that men and women are different, and that difference is not just OK, it is good.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_differences.html

I know it is. I will fully admit that it is a challenge.

I'm not taking this journey alone at home. FWW is enjoying it because it drives a lot of conversation.

I find it full of interseting points also..

Sorry I needed to explain, and clarify, because men don't notice anything, and if they did, they certainly don't complain...

(You know the women are gonna crucify us right HHH, Are you sure you wanna pick this fight?) Im with ya to the end, Semper Fi!!

The only women who would have a problem with this statement would be those who feel threatened by it - or feel that they have to "lose" something for men to once again take responsibility for our identities.

I Like the win-win scenerio with women also..

I was only making a joke, because I also noticed a long time ago, that you never know unless you ask, and then once you do ask, well, you asked for it.

OK, You open a door for a women, and one might sneer at you becuase you are such a chavaunist, or she might smile cause your a gentlemen. What is the problem with that? You choose to do what you please, and opening the door for the guy bringing in a heavy load at the store is not an insult to him, but an acknowledgment of the need of teamwork, humility and care.

Some folks get this, and some don't, but I never have given to much time discussing who had what strengths, it was more about our common goals and how we best fit the nessesary roles to achieve them.

I can"t see the pioneer women saying, "Ok the reason I don't have the big muscles are because you make me stay home and nurse the children, now that they are weaned you stay home and I will go plow the fields." Certainly there have been Women who have done that kind of work, and Men who have taken care of children, but the question remains, what is the difference, if we are on the same page?

I want to get more into this HHH, its worthy of converstion, but I am drawing a blank right now. The need of another women, is an interesting question, as you sigline suggests, but was it the explosion of the media, TV, the information highway that has changed the nature of how boys-to-men have developed? I think so, and in the nature of those mediums, the massive choices we all have now.


Ok starting to drift off again on that.. Gotta let all these thoughts congeal into something that makes sense...

What is seeming to happen, is the transition just stops at boys.

The shift of society has rendered men as an option, not a must.

I think it's great that society has opened up and women are beginning to get a fair shake.

In that fair shake, however, some feel that men have to be taken down a peg to make way for women.

We have also lost a lot of our "usefulness." Men like to be needed, and a strong modern woman doesn't "need" a man, and a lot of them are quite quick to tell you so.

Where does that leave us? Where does that leave marriage? Interdependence?

Those are questions worth asking.

BS.

I Agree, and I want to be wanted, need to be needed, just like any human being. I admit I am dependant on those emotions also, to be really connected to the world.

But if we can be replaced by machinery, as a paid for serviceman, bought amd pidgeonholed and controlled, of course, "understood" but not respected. with a pat on the butt "go back out and play now boys"....

Yeah been there, and when we get manipulated like that, or when it appears we are but we smell the rotteness of insincerity over time, all we can do is ask the truth, with an open mind and humble heart. If they pull the "I'm a dainty little flower and I am insulted by what you are implying Boo-Hoo crap" well, time to get out the tall boots and save the wristwatches.

Acting dumb may seem wise at the moment, but in the long run accually realizing we are dumb is the key to growth, not trying to work out some play where you can have a happy ending, according to your perception at the time you started the ball rolling. " He is perfect because" or "She is perfect because", is fine in the beggining, but when time goes by and things change, we still need to be perfect in our partners eyes, even if its a newly learned appreciation.

I allways liked a good question, just like good poetry and song lyrics, because they make you think.

Its a great Question HHH

Would love to hear you expound. He was talking about society in general I think, not individuals.

Please give me examples I can beleive in, I really would like to beleive that men are not like worker drone bees, or accecpt that also, being given respect for the sacrifice for the hive and the queen.

Just what is our jobs as the male part of the marriage relationship? What roles are acceptable?

See HHH, now I asked...

HHH, I don't know if men are an option or whatever. But I do know the sex-specific jobs aren't really there anymore. Well, except for certain sports and careers like firefighters in which you have to have a certain strength level in order to compete for a job. And there are prob far more men willing to go jump in the front lines in military fire fights than more women. However, that's a speculation on my part.

Are men an option and not a necessity? Not anymore than a woman is a necessity. Now my wife would say that she and the kids do absolutely need me. Would they die without me? No.

HHH, I would say there are prob just as many men letting themselves being emasculated by others as there are that are not letting themselves get dragged down.

I think you can spend too much time wondering where one fits into this world or one can decide what qualities they would like to exhibit and take those on.

Yes I can understand that, and of course I can tell my kids the same, and maybe even show them the same example, or express how they will allways be loved, and how much it matters to love yourself no matter what. Teach them self respect, how to handle failure and loss, when they have to experience them, which at some time if you love something, it is ineveitable that you might or have lost it. From arguments, freinds, fantasys like Santa and the tooth Fairy, to pets and family members, we all experience loss, yet life still goes on, and we teach them that it is good.



But then there are the politics and powers that be that you would think might help us, and instead work against us, when we finnally call on them for help.

After years of seeing my wife play with self-abuse, and watching my kids twist there heads sideways like a dog who is puzzled as she got even more lost, I finally called the authorities in to deal with her and help her, after we had an altercation at the house that got violent. I just wanted her to go to counselling, and get help for her addictions, and I didn't care how I looked,(Never did really when it came down to my family).

The female officer who showed up went in to talk to my wife, and I said fine, I would wait outside. When she came out and put handcuffs on me, becuase she bought W story, I said Ok, well as long as I have a chance to tell them the truth...

In the end, because drugs are so common here, and my WW was so good at slipping around the truth and the law, she never got treatment for her drug issues, and before you go there, no I had not ever given her reason to use.

I didn't care if she left really, even though the kids hearts would break, and what we had worked for would be ruined. I was really interested in her staying alive, and would even accepted counsel on how we could seperate...I just wanted the truth, and the system did not supply it. I played the game.

But I remember the days where I would have walked into a bar and started trouble to get my wife out of there, and stare down any guys hitting on her years ago. I thought I had gotten smarter and deeper than that, so I didn't go hunt down coke-head and slit his sleazy throat, or shoot him in his pukey little punk head, because yes, I was emasculated, but I knew how to get even.

Maybe I needed more testostrezone in my diet, so I could end up power-lifting at the local prison. Nah, I wasn't gonna put him in the ground, she would have found another one, and I would be in jail. Yeah, and my kids would be being taught about "non-violence" by seeing there Dad in Jail, and Mom would still be using after that, and for awhile,,, I would have been the problem..that was now gone away.

But the same feel-good drug emotionalism that infects our politics and law enforcement on the street, and in the courtrooms will still exist.

I really don't blame the Women Cop because all she had was what she saw, a hysterical woman and what seems like a guy who was calm and maybe she thought I was cold and didn't care, IDK. Personnaly it makes me want to blatently exhibit some kind of outward appearence that would make me seem less rough around the edges, so they could tell by sight that I was telling the truth, and my biggest concern was for someone to help us, to help me help her, that I had given up trying to hide it from everyone for her sake, and her reputation in the church......Lets add to that I accually had gone way to far with this woman, and should have taken the children way back in 1989 instead of comeing back. So the Cop was probably seeing a mess..

Ok so What are the authoritys men can go to to Man-Up?

Look at 2 things here;

The divorce rate (which has actually reduced somewhat).

The age of marriage.

Interdependence has been devalued.

You don't have to answer that really, it was more of a question that was brought up to show that people mess up, even with the best intentions. I allready know all the "if i had onlys", and had counselled enough men is simular crisises.

Something is greatly lost in objectivity, and being able to see the right thing to do, when it happens to your family, when you think all the BS is handled, and God Himself hands you your azz. You second guess yourself, internally, things that were once settled become questions again, and you doubt yourself everywhere.

Thinking tonight about how I am still messed up over the tragedy, when my 20 yr old came by in a surprise visit. I found myself again on the defensive, trying to explain things, wanting to be his Dad, snivieling and making excuses again, worrying about him and his life. I am still so afraid that I have failed as a Father. Telling him things will be alright, trying to make sure he didn't feel alone, assuring him things will work out in time and with thought and good healthy habits.

But that is somewhat of an act, and they are smart enough to see through it, enough so they worry about me also. That, as a man, I cannot stand. Concerned sure, but I have allways projected confidance, and ability, aggressivly attacking negativity and deppression. This last two years it has been hard, and the ten years before were brutal, but I have to remember it wasn't all up to me.

Self sufficientcy, to me, is the mark of a Man, and that is sometimes a lonely road. I am a survivor, but i want more than to survive, I want to thrive, and I can only depend on truth and light, and the support of God, whoever reflects His truth I will trust, unless he falls away from it into something I can't respect. Like that sig line I see, "I can't do this alone, but I can do it"

Ticks me off, makes me want to fight, but I will never have enough confidance to make me believe I can do no wrong, ever again. There just is not enough time left in my life to, "fix" it all, and prove that to myself either. I am unbalanced, internally as well as spiritually, and yes I am getting better, but not fast enough for me.

I think thats what God was trying to show me, that I can't believe what I feel about myself, or what others project because of thier own opinions and experience. I don't have to trust them either, and Jesus don't depend on them either.

Brings me back to the scripture, "By thier fruit you will know them" There is an urgency inside that wants to practice patience and wisdom, but those two things don't fit together well do they? Urgency and patience? I need good men who can set strong examples that I can model myself after. I allways will need a Hero.

I'll wrestle with this tommorow with the therapist. Tonight I will just have to quell my emotions that tell me to stop F'n around, and be happy I still have a chance to do what I can.

Ever see the movie, "the Edge"? I just had a thought about getting kicked out of the "Man Thread" because I was talking about feelings. Lol. I allways respected Anthony Hopkins character in that flick, and Alec Baldwin was the loser.

Remember when Baldwin suggested Hopkins and everyone could get in a hot-tub and talk about thier "feelings" in a sarcastic tone?

Tell me I'm not that guy ok?

My W used to say I reminded her of Hopkins in that flick, and trusted me in the wilderness and in surviving. Oh well...I could expound but...

ITA on that.

On the tax return, I was proud to check off those that were my dependants, that didn't mean I didn't depend on them also.

Dr H. has an article he published recently about how the "Co-dependancy movement is ruining marriages". He explains healthy co-dependancy, which I can assume has a lot in common with inter-dependance.

We are all connected in some way, how we treat ourselves and each other makes us dependant. There I go again sounding like a Hippie...

Actually, this whole "men don't talk about their feelings" is something I hope we can overcome in this one little space created here.

Who can we turn to as experts? I don't know. I'm looking, and hope others bring what they can to the table.

Wonder if this resonates with anyone;

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/12649_whyaremenangrymanningupauthorkayhymowitzexplains

I wasn't aware that I had disrespected them, just that they weren't for me. I watch what I eat (I cook and bake a lot of my own foods), I have a weight bench in my basement, and I like being fit.

The problem is that muscle weighs more than fat. It's pretty darn tough to exchange three pounds of one for the other.

I'm not a big guy, but I used to have large thighs. I routinely would leg press 680+ lbs. at the gym. My thighs are smaller now as they have adapted to the requirements I place on them.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=20476

On a side note, the first marathon I ever ran, just a couple of hundred yards from the finish, I passed a guy who looked like he was military: buff, short hair, etc. Just as I passed him, he fell to his knees and began puking. I was amazed -- I wasn't rough and buff like this guy, but I sure finished ahead of him...

Perhaps you're being too sensitive, k_t. I only said (or at least tried to say) that each of us has a different idea of what constitutes manliness. Bodybuilding may fulfill that ideal for some (although I personally know prize-winning competitive woman bodybuilder!) but my point was that I don't need or want someone else to define for me what I should be/look/act like in order to "be a man."