No, it's blaming a lack of male involvement, and you are choosing to take it that way.

The blame lies squarely on men.

Then why did you feel the need to say this?

Because allowing women to define our identity *as* men is part of the problem.

Men are at fault for the fact that it was women left to the task.

I thought that was the evolutionary scope of things? Men hunted and gathered so they were the ones that fed adn supplied the family. Of course we don't have to hunt and fish to live but we have to have the money to support those that do.

And if you follow Dr. Harley, he prescribes that men are the wage earners and should be willing to let their wives stop working if they should want to which means if you follow MB, the men have to step up and earn more, learn to do with less, or work more hours.

How about just defining who you are and not allow others to compromise that by the way they think you should be.

I understand what you're saying, HHH, and I think your point is excellent.

CWMI, I have to apologize for even taking part in this discussion.

To you, and to myself.

Again, I do thank you for creating a space for the discussion as to not interrupt other threads. I may be hard-headed, but respect is to be given where it is due, and in that sense, it is due here.

The thing is, the go-round here is getting nowhere, as you are bringing up points that I don't disagree with, in fact, they were points I originally brought up in my sources earlier.

Again, I wholeheartedly believe that men should be accountable to men for their masculine identity - in other terms "good men" - and I believe that nothing has to be taken from women for men to reclaim this identity. In fact, I believe the the marital and family unit will benefit if we "man up" and quit being doormats and/or man-children.

I have violated a simple non-negotiable, unalterable term by partaking in this - I argued as if I was seeking your approval.

I am not.

Someone mentioned masculine. Can you seperate masculine from man?

Dr. Harley is not in favor of more hours, or overnight travel, kt.

It felt a whole lot like you were arguing to prove me wrong, and that I indeed do NOT know what it means to be a good man.

The whole "thank you, respect!" thing felt more like approval-seeking stuff.

Just fyi, I really have no problem with you personally, and I love the manly thread. I've been reading AoM for a couple years now.

I can give someone general respect for respectable actions without needing their approval. I can also give thanks when someone does something that I happen to find respectable. Neither of them require the approval or acceptance of the target.

My greatest fear when I started the man thread, is that it would melt down into yet another quarrel in gender politics and be locked, and as such miss the entire target.

It's not personal at all, and never was.

I think I have spent too much time arguing with radical feminists... spidey-sense tingles too easily.

Which is why so many of us are skittish about remarrying. :-(

This is huge !

LOL

You might appreciate this hotly debated, and controversial, 2004 thread.
*LINK* .... not everyone's cup of tea, for sure.

I think I like you HHH.
You're weird, but I'll overlook that for now.

Hold, this statement in your signature is extremely hard to comprehend without context. I can tell you that it bothers Prisca strongly and that I don't know what it means because I haven't read the article and I lack the context. It's probably bothering a lot of people who don't want to speak up.

I have no doubt that it means something I would probably agree with or sympathize with once I finally read the original article. But you might want to know that without context it might be throwing a lot of people off.

I'm a man in a woman's world... I suppose that does make me weird.

You don't understand how offensive you are, do you?

My H was raised by his father after his mother took off, and he grapples with the same masculinity problem that you seem to have. So, reckon me that? (that's southern for 'explain that in the context of your 'woman's world has ruined the man' thesis')

FYI, CWMI, I don't find his comments offensive to women.
Just weird. And young.

3 of my 4 bosses are women. Thier bosses are all women. The 1 guy that's a boss above them is a man but his boss is a woman.

I was raised quite a bit by my mom and gradmother.

So in my world, I agree with HHH. In fact, almost every one of my bosses has been a woman and over half of my professors were women.

So, I'm on the side with HHH that it's a womans world...at least in my world. Had my bosses/professors been mainly men, I would't feel the way I do.

Well for one, there is things like this. I make a statement, and you take it as a war against women or some tripe.

I suppose I should "know my place."

However, I am a man in a woman's world. I am a nurse. Men make up 2-5% of the total professional field. Some floors in our local hospitals have NO male nurses or caregivers.

I live in a woman's world.

When I work with certain women, they exhibit behavior that definitely exhibit that the WHOLE WORLD is definitely NOT a woman's world, and they approach me with this "one of the boys" behavior. Then there are those who approach me with the "men are trash" attitude.

Neither of those types get anything from me. I am not "one of the boys."

The third type, they just work. A man in "their world" is not a disruption or threat. To them, I am just another nurse.

Sometimes, this world I work in overlaps the world of meathead men - "You're a male nurse?"

Yes, I am. And I'm about to poke your hip with this needle so that you can stop crying over those broken ribs.