SB,

H and I had several hours of driving today (to the eye surgeon and back)and we had some really great conversation. We talked about some things that we have discussed several times but had problems ever moving forward on. Both of us were able to say what we meant in a clear way. It was very encouraging! It was nice to think so clearly and to be understood :-)

Still reading...cornea transplant in July, I need to finish all my books by then!

JL,

When I read this I thought I had misread it. I have been under the assumption that I had fore-fitted the right to ever have anything I wanted. This led to some great conversation today as H and I drove up and down the highway. There's a lot here for me to think about.

As for what you said about having power...I'm not sure I get it. Don't I only have what H let's me have?

One year I believe I was moderated 130 times!

Very nice! But I was honored earlier this year with two weeks of "pre-emptive total moderation" !

BG - the point is we're NOT professionals here. What we have in common is that we are veterans of various forms of infidelity - some as WS's, some as BS's. And we've all decided to help others through the difficulties of similar circumstances. Consider all that you read here in the light of the fact that we want BG, and CV, to someday soon be where we are now. Take from us what is good and helpful. Ask questions about things that aren't clear. Read everything in the "library" of MB teachings on this site.

Personal preference from NG : Load up on the UA time. Do not use that time for discussing anything here. Just get back to when you and your husband were not "old married folks", but were learning about each other. You'll enjoy that. We dedicated 45 minutes each late afternoon to "sofa time". The two of us, some music, two glasses of wine.........

BG,

You did not read this incorrectly, The only way your H can have a marriage that he needs and wants is if his W is happy. And the only way she is happy is if she has the marriage she wants. Which also means you will not be happy unless he has the marriage he wants. Are you seeing something here. You both need to talk, decide what you want from the marriage, what will make you happiest in the marriage and then negotiate so that you both end up satisfied, supported, and enthusiastic about your marriage.

You did not forfeit anything when you had the affairs, well other than your self-respect. What you did was deeply hurt a man that loves you, and make him doubt himself at least as much as he doubts you. The two things that really hinder a recovery is the guilt of the Wayward, WS, spouse, and the lack of confidence and subsequent fear of the betrayed spouse, the BS.

Both of these things can be overcome with honesty, goals, plans, and love. Now I am not talking about the romantic description of love, although that is important. What keeps a marriage together is the act of love. The actions you take thaat show your love for your H. The actions he takes that show he loves you.

When you two married, you both promised to love one another for the rest of your life, You did not promise to "feel inlove", you promised to act with love even if you were not happy, or "feeling it."

Dear woman, you have enormous power over your H. You have no idea how powerful you are. Your H knows it and fears that you will hurt him again. You want some proof. While talking to your H, reach out and touch him, just touch. Watch his eyes, watch the tension in him slowly go away. Want to see him smile? Kiss him. Tell him that you need him in your life. Just hold him or make physical contact with him when you are watching TV or doing something. None of this has to be sexual, but watch his body language.

He wants more than anything to please you, feel safe with you, receive your love and affection. You are the one person on this earth that is actually allowed to do this for him. And as for sex, well I think you know the answer there as well.

Finally, if you don't believe me, just ask him. Ask him if he fears you will hurt him. You cannot hurt him if you did not have power over him.

Time for a complete change in perspective. I know you have been abused when you were younger and you probably see men through a filter I don't understand. But rest assured you have power and you can use it for something very good...a great marriage.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Hello JL,

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I was visually impaired, but I'm doing better...lol

Anyhow, this idea of "power" is really uncomfortable for me. I feel like it's control through fear, and I don't want to control him and surely not through fear. Control was a big issue for me before we started down the road to recovery. I want to be loved, needed, wanted, respected and eventually trusted (we've come a long way with trust but have a ways to go).

Maybe I don't get it. I see that he has a lot of power over me, but aside from him being afraid that I will betray him again I just don't see what you mean.
H has a very strong personality and he's a protector. He's not the kind of man that needs anyone and he's said as much over the past 3 years. Every now and then when he's feeling tender he'll say that he needs me, but he's told me so many times that he doesn't... I can live with this, I just want to understand...if I have some sort of power I can't imagine what it is other than fear.

Open to your thoughts...

BTW...I have changed my username at my H suggestion. He's looking out for me :-)

Ok Grace4me,

Let's look at power. Most people view the term in the negative and yes even as control. But, I view it more comprehensively. You do control how your H thinks of you, but what you don't quite see is that you also control how he handles things. You have the power to touch him physically and emotionally and do great damage or great good.

Your affair did great harm because he loves you and needs you in his life (yeah, I know what you just posted). Let me ask you this if he did not NEED you in his life do you think he would have endured all of the pain of your affair? You think he is berift of options such as leaving or ending the marriage? I don't!

What that man needs from you is your love, your compassion, your forgiveness, and your respect. You disrespected him deeply with your affairs. He wants to feel safe and you have the power to make him feel safe.

Your power is not in fear, it is in your love for him. It is in how you touch him, how you make him feel when he "protects" you.

I don't recall if you have children or not, but consider a baby. They seem so "defensless" don't they? But, if you watch they have a huge amount of power over their parents. A whine, a cry, a laugh, a look, a touch, they communicate from the beginning and that power they have makes parents protect them.

On a physical level they are far weaker than the parents, but on a emotional level they are every bit our match...and they know it.

You as much as your H set the tone, the level of love, the fun, and the rewards that your marriage will bring. In short you have enormous power. You just never really appreciated it, hence you misused it and hurt both yourself and your H.

Please think about this and we will talk somemore.

God Bless,

JL

Glad to know I'm not the only one!

I'm starting to see more how H and I are in many ways working to overcome similar obstacles. Now that we're both looking at things through a clearer lens I find myself thinking things through a lot more. It's strange though, while we have made clear progress in some ares, it feels like others have gone dormant. I guess we can only do so much at once.

The pattern of ups and downs remains but the downs aren't quite so far down anymore. Oddly though, the ups don't seem quite so up either. Is this normal?

Bob Pure made a lovely post about the "power" spouses have over each other.

This is a feedback loop.
*** Link here *** take a look !

It's called the love and respect cycle.

Even if this helps a little ...

Hi gang. This is something I posted on another thread in reference to POJA. SusieQ suggested I repost it here and hopefully get some good feedback.

...Alright, how about this... as a FWW, I have trouble living out the POJA. I have a tendency to say yes to things I'm not totally on board with because I feel like I owe H so much.

How do I know where to draw the line? Yes, I have read and re-read the POJA, but putting it into practice isn't as easy as it looks. Where is the line between "I'll do anything to make this work" and the POJA?

POJA by itself is the sound of one hand clapping, G4M. How about adding to the process a little bit (actually a whole lot) of O&H.

TELL HIM THAT. Tell him that your firmness in negotiating on items of import is undermined by your feelings of debt to him. Together you should find a way to work around that.

In the recovery phase, my FWW could not bring herself to speak to me of things that she thought would trouble me - some A-related, some not. We bought an ugly green tablet (notebook) and left it alongside the microwave in the kitchen. When she wanted to reveal something to me, she'd write it in there and leave it on my desk. I'd write and answer and leave in on her nighttable. (When similar problems arose, for me, the process, and locations, would reverse.)

Remember my advice about responding to posts? The same value lies here. Writing and composing oneself takes the emotion out of the whole interaction.

You could actually conduct your "negotiations" through that type of notebook, until your emotions let you get back to full parity with your spouse.

neverguessed,

I am going to adopt that process myself, it is a clear way to have a discussion, we sometimes get off course and takes a long time to come to agreement......
This way sounds easier for now........thanks for the suggestion to grace4me....
You are a very smart man.
jessi

Gosh, jt, you're making me blush!
(Or maybe it's just the reaction to my Niaspan?)

Grace4me,

You asked Ok, this one is simple, I mean really easy, you just haven't looked at it in positive perspective.

Your H will be happy when you are happy, right?
You will be happy when your H is happy, right?
Your H will be happy when things happen in a positive way for him right?
You will be happy when things happen in a positive way for you right?

Soooooo! How best to accomplish all of this? Easy, negotiate a Win-Win situation for the both of you. You not telling what you want, need, feel, etc. is hurting him because he then acts on false information. IN short you are LYING TO HIM. What what you owe him as a WS is HONESTY.

The POJA is the method by which you two negotiate a win-win situation. He cannot negotiate unless he understands what you want or don't want and WHY. You cannot tell him unless you know. Talk about what you want, don't want, are not sure of first. Then ask him to tell you the same, and then the two of you sit down beside one another, not across the table, and see if you can construct scenario's that will make you both happy.

It takes practice. Harley recommends going to a grocery store and using POJA to buy things. It will be harder than you think. So don't be discouraged that it isn't working yet.

You see the POJA is what you do with the "radical honesty" that you both are supposed to be using. First you gather the HONEST data, and then you POJA until there is a win-win.

See it is simple, it is just not so easy. There is a big difference. I'll tell you my simple/easy joke one day. Most here have heard it.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you guys. H and I have been talking a lot about POJA and what you all have posted. It's been a new concept for both of us and we see where we both have some things we can work on. After the A I needed H to make a lot of decisions for me because I had to learn how to make good decisions on my own. We just sorta stayed in that mode and never realized how much it's been holding us back. This week has been the kind of week I thought we wouldn't ever have again!

As for the notebook idea, I sort of do that now. I have the most untimely brainstorms and so I carry a small notebook in my purse and jot down notes to myself about things I need to discuss with H. It's my "memory in a bag"...lol.

Also...I started on MB posting in Recovery...H started in Surviving...I switched to Surviving at his request. We both think we survived some time ago and now we're working the kinks out. H just wasn't sure where we were supposed to start. When do we leave Surviving and live in Recovery?

Grace,

You don't really ever have to leave here. Or you can move over to recovery now. It really doesn't make a difference because if you and CV ask questions folks will do their best to answer them.

There was a time on this site where there really was only one place to post. So if you are comfortable here, the continue. If you feel more comfortable on Recovery, then post there.

God Bless,

JL