No, I get it. I tried the same approach. However, FWW is a mother. When she has conversations with people, it is about her children. When I have conversations with people, it is about my children - being a father is a significant portion of my life.

Now, chat w/ the OM might not have included talk of children, but they weren't "dating." I am quite certain they had talked about the children at some point, but the A speak didn't include that.

I tried the "no kids talk" rule, it just didn't work. You can't converse with somebody, especially intimately about your life, and leave out such a significant portion.

Make more sense?

It does. I agree. In retrospect, we spent time talking about the kids as well, but tried not to make it the focus of the dates.

CV

well, I'd have to get him to agree to a date w/me, and right now the only time he wants to be alone w/me is when he wants SF. I've floated the idea - there was a restaurant he wanted to try, I bought one of those groupon deals for it, and told him to just let me know when he wants to go...I didn't want to push too much. If he wants to go, we'll go. It's in his court.

I don't know...I'm going to continue to treat him with kindness and respect and meet the needs I am allowed to meet. Although it is difficult at times to keep meeting the need for SF b/c the LB$ balance is about nonexistent. I know, I know, it can be refilled - IF he chooses to do so. And nothing I can do to make him want to do that. I can't think of any way to protect what is left other than I cultivate the memories we had together. The same way these new WW's on the board are fantasizing about their POSOMs, I'm living in a fantasy world in my head with my H. Sounds stupid, maybe, but it works well enough.

But what does it mean that while he's willing enough to have sex with me (and almost exclusively initiates it these days), he can't even bring himself to hold hands with me - as a family - at dinnertime during the blessing? He makes a point of taking DD#1's hand to his right, and folds his other arm on the table instead of reaching across to me. Does that sound like someone who would be interested in going out on a date w/me? It really bothered me when I noticed this at first, but I'm beginning to really not care. And THAT - becoming indifferent - bothers me.

AWESOME!

Create the opportunities, WPG!

And you are right, when you extend these branches, it is up to HIM to take hold!

(((WPG)))

ZOMG, that brightened my day. You GET IT!

It can also help to protect you.

So long as you can allow deposits to be made, becoming indifferent to these little stingers is going to reduce that over-excitement.

Continue to create the opportunities for him to engage. If he's going to be a fuddy-dud? Well, you continue to be pleasant.

I KNOW you have strength WPG, focus on maintaining that, and continue to model what you are offering in reconciliation!

Well, if I keep sticking branches out there long enough, maybe someday he'll grab onto one!

Thanks, HHH - I've read hopeful_person's posts. Pretty amazing story. I'd give anything for that kind of redeption and restoration.

WPG - You said something on another thread that I felt I should correct. Over in SAA, on the reminder thread to lurking WWs, you wrote:


I wish I could write differently, but I don't know if you'd call my M fully recovered. Certainly my DH and I have a better relationship in so many ways than we ever have before, but there still remains the fact that I betrayed him with my infidelity. And, as you know, that's a pretty big "but."

I don't know if you've read my emotus vomitus thread, but my DH and I are actually legally divorced as a result of my adultery. Moreover, he has stated that he will stick around until the kids go to college, then he just needs to be away, on his own, done. There is also no guarantee to that timeframe - if he feels the need to, he will exit sooner.

I've finally reached mostly acceptance of this. Or, rather, whatever happens, happens. I will do what I can. I can hope that, 18 years from now, DH decides to stay, but I try not to hope too fervently, nor to pin all of my hopes and dreams and expectations (most of which I don't really have anymore anyway, thanks to my earth-shatteringly awful decisions and the subsequent cynicism and frequent depression that has set in in the wake of coming back from those decisions) on the horrible cycle of "will-he-stay-won't-he-stay" minutiae of overanalyzing and paralyzing fear of the worst (him leaving) coming true.

Whew. Did any of that make sense? I know that doesn't help in the whole "how many FWWs have recovered their M's department," but I wanted to be up front with you about my particular situation.

I will say again: DH and I have a better relationship in many, many, many ways. I would say "all," but there are some necessary qualifiers there, (like, you know, innocence and purity of the relationship, trust, intact dreams). We counseled with Steve, we know the program, we've analyzed and both come to some form of acceptance now of the past, I think. He is an amazing man, and none of what he does for me now is required of him - yet he still does it.

Anyway. I wish I didn't have to make that kind of correction, but it is what it is. Here's to hope, (but not too much of it)...

I'm so sorry, Mrs V - no, I didn't know...but you know, that only serves to increase my opinion of you. I don't know that I will be able to keep things going as they are going now, with my H sort of a "part-time/when he wants to be" H, if he files for D next year. I think that takes incredible strength, to not know what the future holds, you know? I love my H more than anything, and all I want is to have the chance to be a good - no, better - wife to him...I just don't know how strong I'll turn out to be down the road, KWIM?



I know what you mean. I have just gotten so tired of the overanalyzing every little thing H does and getting my hopes up every time something slightly positive happens and...BAM...I go all "Tommy Boy" again and there goes my biscuit.

Frequent depression...I feel like I should stop being so depressed, feel like "everybody else" thinks I should be bucking up and moving on now. I finally stopped telling the docs that I still sometimes wish I was dead...not suicidal thoughts, just those random things that pop in my mind. It's just wanting the pain to stop. It is an improvement over actually being suicidal, because I was. I've stopped talking to my girlfriends so much b/c as one put it, "I'm glad to see you are doing positive things now. You know, you were really wallowing there for a while." Kinda felt like I had reached my limit, I mean, nobody wants to continually listen to kvetching and moaning. Even my parents are tired of it, although Mom puts up with it more than Dad! So I don't see a lot of choice other than moving on with my life.

I'll second that...

Don't think too highly of me, WPG After posting to you, I started wondering if it's quite hypocritical of me to post and offer advice, especially if there is an assumption that I have a completely recovered marriage... IDK. I try to only post what I know about firsthand, or what I can safely say re: the MB program. I'll try to be extra-careful just in case.


Your situation in that respect is quite difficult, I think. My DH makes this pretty darn easy for me: my ENs are met well, and he allows me to meet his ENs. We do talk and plan for the future, (at least short-term), and we do a pretty good job of meeting those 4 intimate ENs (SF, RC, etc.)

Your H lets you meet at least one/some needs, so that's a start, right? ?


This took me a looong time to get through, and I still have not perfected it. Believe it or not, the apathy of depression helps! I think the repeated highs and horrid lows of the overanalyzing helped me get to the point where I stopped believing so hard and hoping so much. I started taking everything with at least a grain of salt and a quasi "believe-it-when-I-see-it" coupled with a "just-take-it-as-is-right-now" attitude.


I understand this. And, yes, there is the requisite "brought this upon myself" feeling. And that everyone (and by "everyone" I mean DH, because I don't share this stuff with anyone else) must be sick of me being depressed so frequently. I still haven't figured out a great way to handle this, though I notice hydration, limited sugar and zero caffeine seem to help, (thanks to those who weighed in on my hormonal-driven thread demanding info on meds! Meds! Now!!).

So. Yeah. Hope. And the work we know we have to do on our sides of the street. And more hope. No matter how it all works out, it does get better, WPG.

You ladies are both amazing.

Not to sound morbid but I too realize the futility of trying to control a situation that I simiply can't.

Not to be morbid but our BH's could be in a car accident and taken from us tomorrow...or we could all grow old together in a happy fulfilling marriage.

The only thing we can do is the steps necessary to make the later possible but know that the path we are on is exactly where God wants us to be.

I spend my days "acting as if" and enjoyin the good times.

Good luck to you ladies, you truly are an inspiration.

@ Mrs V - I don't think it is "hypocritical" at all of you to post. You obviously have experience with MB, you have worked/are working the program, you've counseled with Steve H - you've been through the fog and come out the other side, and I think you have a lot of insight to share here.

You're correct in that you are still in a very different place than my H and I - I see it as very positive that your H does care about meeting your ENs, and he allows you to meet his - so deposits are being made. I am given the opportunity to occasionally meet H's need for SF but I am finding it harder and harder to do so. Even though we are still married, I keep feeling more and more like I'm being used. It's like I want to be with him, but it makes it worse at the same time, if that makes sense. I try to do other things to fulfill other ENs, although opportunities to meet the other intimate EN's are rare. I've put a few "branches" out there as far as RC, but so far he hasn't taken me up on anything.

And I guess I've been more on the sharing with others vein, as far as my girlfriends and my family, and on the board, as I sort of feel like what's the point of telling H how depressed I am (geez, I read HFD's post on SAA about his WW waking him up at 2:30 to cry and I about teared up myself) because (and I know this is a DJ) I feel like he doesn't care. And then it starts the whole internal dialogue, well, why should he care? I screwed another man. He's giving me what I deserve. Blah blah blah...I'm better at stopping that train of thinking now but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But I feel like sometimes IRL I get the attitide of "well, you're better off"...and I know he wasn't a perfect H but I DON'T feel better off without him, and I can't believe I ever thought some scumbag would be able to replace him.

I've reached the point where even though I do get overwhelmed by all the things I have to take care of, I realized that I can take care of things, I can function without him. I've learned how to do things around the house I never bothered with before. I don't need him. But I want him. I miss him. I miss when I read something funny he's the first person I want to send it to. I miss watching "Smallville" with him on Friday nights. I miss him making me French toast. I miss snuggling up to him at night and I miss the way he smells. I don't know if that will ever really go away, no matter how things end up.

Anyway, I agree with sunny's assessment that you, Mrs V, are an inspiration. Despite your circumstances you have continued to fight for your M, and that makes you an inspiration in my book!

@ sunnydaze, thank you...but I have to say I don't feel much like an inspiration. I definitely haven't done/don't do this recovery thing right, and I'll screw up again before the day is over...but there is still a part of me that does believe that where God wants me to be is fighting for my H and our M. And I guess as long as that little part of me is still there, I'll keep fighting. And hoping. Even a tiny bit.

WPG,

I feel like I shouldn't be posting either sometimes, but if 1 person can be helped by what we had/are going through... To me it is worth it. And for the record, even the ones who are clearly responding on threads out of pain, there is value in what is said, things to be learned. WPG, you have been an encouragement to us since we have joined the MB forum. With that said, I hope you don't mind too much if I "meddle" a lil bit? Sorry if this seems random...


I think I can understand this (at least to a degree). On and off over the last three years, I have been withdrawn and attentive depending on the roller-coaster ride. Some lows have been longer than others.One thing that has *never* lacked in our marriage was meeting sf, even during the A's. I remember many times in my lows, where she was trying to meet my EN for SF that she would often tell me she felt like I was using her. I have to honestly say, that this is something *he* is doing, not you. at some point (cannot remember when), I came to the realization that there were times I was using my WFF for sex, and in a way, wasn't much different from the d-bags that used her. I'm sure it was more complex than that, but that really was the core of it. I wanted my need met and disregarded her...

As I began thinking about it, I realized something... She thought the OM's cared about her, and because she wanted that acceptance, she was willing to do other things like sex. As sad and sick as it may sound, I believe this is something we BS's struggle doing as well. We put our FWW (who is truly repentant) in the position of having to give sex with hopes that the BS will meet their En's better. In this regard, is it really different from the A?

Honestly, in some ways, does it feel the same? My FWW said yes, it did.


Who didn't tear up at that? WPG, my fww thought/thinks exactly the same thing. "what was I thinking?!?!" You know he cares, right? He is coming over, having coffee, asking for sf because he misses you. Trust me on this. He may not say it or ask it, but he misses you. He is gripped by his hurt and is struggling. You probably know all this though.


Who wouldn't miss watching Smallville with the love of their life. It's the best show on! Sadly I have missed the last 3 seasons... It went by the wayside after the A... (I did tell you it would be seemingly random). I miss it because it was an "us" thing (and a cool show). You should invite him over for coffee and Smallville one Friday night. Maybe if you have the seasons on DVD, find some fav. episodes and plan on watching them again. Another olive branch... He hasn't told you to stop asking has he? If he hasn't said "WPG, just stop it", I am willing to believe he wants to be pursued a bit by you. Either way, keep giving him opportunities... us guys aren't always the smartest and hey, think of the reverse of Dr. H's statement that anyone can have an affair if the conditions are right... The converse is that anyone can fall back in love again and repair the damage if the conditions are right. Just keep setting those conditions up. Being a man, he will eventually walk into them. ;-)

CV

Thanks, CV...as far as posting here, I sometimes feel the same. I don't know if what I offer is helpful or not. I sometimes just want to do something, anything, KWIM? My sitch may be hopeless but I can see hope for others and I want to help.


It's an interesting point, as a FWW I can't really say yea or nay since I don't know what's going on in my H's head (or any other BS, for that matter). He did tell me initially that it was "just SF, nothing more, just to fill a need." So if he's using me for SF then he's not being dishonest about it.


Sometimes when I am at one of my low points, yes, it does. I allowed myself to be used by a long string of guys as a teenager and young woman, giving them what they wanted because I wanted acceptance, attention, and love. When H came along, I thought he was different. He saw me differently than the other guys. But sometimes I feel like what I did completely negated that and he realized that all along he was wrong, that I really was/am a wh*re and so now it's OK to treat me like one.


lol...same for me - what I enjoyed most was that it was an "us" thing for us too...H and I would joke during the show, making up our own little lines of dialogue and stuff. For a while after he left I just couldn't make myself watch the episodes on the DVR.



I keep asking, he keeps blowing me off. It makes me feel like the only thing I am good for is SF.

I'd definitely say I am at one of my lows today. I was dreaming, right before I woke up this morning, that he was home. He was in the bed with me, we were curled up together, and he was telling me over and over that he'd never leave me again. Then I woke up. And in my inbox is another blow-off from him to another one of my "branches." And next week will mark 2 years from the date the EA went PA. I just haven't been able to stop the spiral this morning and so I find myself here.

And I realize that I'm pretty much at a point where there really isn't anything else for folks to say to me other than variations of be patient/keep trying...although I definitely appreciate the encouragement! No one can figure out his behavior either (lol not even my therapist). And most of the folks IRL are tired of hearing about it, except for my therapist and obviously I am paying her to listen! And I realize that I have little choice other than to keep moving forward and try to make positive changes in myself and my environment, both for my future and more importantly for my daughters.

Hey WPG -

Sorry to hear today is one of the lows on the rollercoaster of recovery. Used to be, me recognizing I was at one of those lows always made it worse - now I've come to accept even those. You said:


Although this can certainly be a depressing thought, it is a good realization to have. You do what you can.

Also, you wrote:

This is a tough one. Nobody knows your limits better than you, and if you have persistent feelings of being used, I suspect your LB$ is hemorrhaging with those activities and your Taker is a-knockin'.

However, it is meeting an EN. Do you have any expectations re: the NSA SF? I can't help but think it would be hard no matter which way you slice it, but if it were me I would try to eradicate any expectations I had whatsoever. Overall, difficult to advise on that one.


This is another tough one. The way I handle this stuff is to say what I need to, briefly, without a whole lot of emotion, then move on with things. Acknowledge sarcastically or humorously or resignedly whatever it is, and be done with it. That way it's out there, but you're not dwelling on it, and you steel yourself with no expectations to move on. Hard to do, maybe not the best advice, but it's what I've found works best for me/us thus far.


This is a major difficulty I have run into, the fact that, for me, family in real life does not mesh with MB and attempting to recover my M. Sadly, it's another consequence of my infidelity - it changes all of those relationships, some better, some worse. I've long since stopped sharing things, and just discuss what I need to w/ my DH. Don't know if I can advise you to do that, just saying that's what works for me.

If I may go off on a tangent here: after I betrayed my marriage, and, overall, betrayed myself, I don't really trust anybody anymore. It may be flawed, but it's a feeling that if I, who was supposed to know myself, and who was so sure that I would never, not in a million years, be a cheater -- if I could betray myself that way, who's to say I will ever know someone else well enough to trust them not to hurt me, to trust them to be true to themselves, to be who they seem to be, to not fall prey to weak boundaries, temptation, etc.?


And, in a lesson from Pep a la Scotty's thread: thank you. You're doing the same thing, you know. Good for you

Hey Mrs V

Yes, this definitely was a low day. I got absolutely nothing done at work today (yay me!) and one of the girls who works for me came in to talk this morning and I burst into tears in front of her. Not so good. You'd think I'd be better at handling this by now, particularly since it is all self-inflicted.


yeah. I keep telling myself that I'm meeting one of his EN's, but I just keep feeling so empty. And the thing is, it's not like he's not doing anything, he is actually doing stuff around the house when he's here, he's spending time with the kids, he's supporting us financially...I feel guilty wanting more after what I did. It is so hard not to have expectations. I know I am not supposed to, and I tell myself that. I just can't get it to sink in my thick little head, I guess.


I know exactly what you mean. It's like I look at almost everyone now like they have an ulterior motive. I have become increasingly uncomfortable at work...I work around mostly males. and yesterday we had this big meeting at work, and one guy says something before the meeting like "oh, don't worry, you look absolutely gorgeous," and I just cringed...I felt objectified, for one, and the other, I thought, do people see me as so shallow, that I am worried about how I look, instead of what I say and what I know??? Not to mention I have this huge inferiority complex at work and I don't know how to deal with one of the other managers who is at my same level but thinks he's my boss, and I can't talk to anyone at work about it and I want to talk to my H but he told me he hated hearing me talk about work...

I know I am whining. It's so stupid, I can't shake that dream I had about H this morning. It stuck with me all day. I feel like I have to be this bubbly, confident woman in front of him to try and appeal to him, when all I want is for him to hold me and take care of me and tell me it's OK. It sucks.

Anyway...I'm busy planning DD#1's b-day party and my 2nd vacation with the girls as a single mom. I booked a 2-BR rental, thinking that maybe I could get H to come, and we'd have our own space together. But then part of me doesn't even want to say anything about it to him, b/c I am convinced he'll just blow me off again. Can't even get him to meet me for coffee, he's not going to go halfway across the state with me for a week!

Well fwiw, I value your posts. So does my wife.



Yeah, well, waht is apparent is that whatever you may have been in the past, you truly are different now.



Ok... important things first... "no flight no tights"... Has it happened yet? I hear that he optioned for a "justice" movie...

Lol... ok back to serious stuff... I have a hard time on anniversary dates too. So does BG. Haven't figured out how to get past that yet. It is easier (I think), but certain days, and even seasons... Winters are pretty much screwed for me... Christmas, My birthday, my daughter's and sons birthdays... Ugh. I seem to crash during those times.




We didn't have friends we felt we could talk to. BG's parents bailed on us. I wonder if in a weird way it helped, because we didn't wear them down. I should've paid someone to listen! I will stop badgering you about the olive branches, but do stick around and help (us) all the people that come here. You are valuable to us all, and not to mention your kids.

CV

thank you for the support, CV. I don't know how H is doing, but Mother's Day and yesterday were full of coulda, woulda, shoulda's and a load of regrets for me.

Nothing much has changed. Still putting out branches.

As far as this:


This is really the only place really supportive of M. I know I've said something similar in the past, but IRL many people seem to think I should be moving on. I wonder if they see that the sitch is hopeless, and that I'm just clueless? Maybe it is hopeless, maybe I am clueless. But I still want him in my life. I miss him. I don't know if it is good/bad/indifferent to take what I can get (or maybe I should say, what he's willing to give).

Something I've been wondering about, and if anyone's got feedback I'm open - After he left, I stopped wearing my wedding ring. Not immediately, but after he'd been gone for a while. I don't know if I should put it back on. Part of me says that yes, I should, b/c I am still married and I still want the M. The other part says no, b/c the old M, what we had, is dead. If we come back together, we will have a new M...and if that happens, what I'd like is for us to both get new rings as a symbol of a new M. Maybe that's a corny idea. But I also don't feel worthy of wearing his ring anymore, because I broke the vows I made when he gave it to me. I don't know if that makes sense. Maybe it is just a case of me overthinking things.

oh, and t/j: no tights yet, but he did fly after being exposed to some other kind of kryptonite. I haven't watched last Friday's eppy yet and this Friday is the series finale. You know, you should take your own advice and rent the seasons you missed and grab BG and just cocoon yourselves for a weekend and watch them together! I'm loving Fringe right now and The Event is a pretty good show too, although my all time faves were Alias and Lost (love JJ Abrams's TV shows!) :end t/j

Maybe you mentioned this before and I just missed it,,,, Dunno??

I would have told you to put your ring on and wear it until the day a divorce is final!

I'm still suggesting you put it back on again!

You see, when a man sees a married woman without her wedding ring on,,,, he knows that woman considers herself a free agent.....

No more, No less!

You can explain it anyway you want,,,, the action speaks loud and clear to all who notice.

I'm certain your H noticed too!

I don't think that's the image you've been trying to portray to him???