WPG,

I have kept up with your story ever since I've been on this forum and know that you have tried to help my ww. (I thank you for that)

I just want you to know that even though you have made a huge mistake in your life you are entitled to be forgiven. You have learned and shown remorse for your mistake and have taken full responsibility for your actions. As a BS that is all I have asked of my wife.

I am not as christian as I need to be either, but do know that forgiveness is very important and I have chosen this route for myself. Even though my ww has not done her part!!!

I am proud of you WPG!!! You are a good person--Remember everyone has made mistakes-it is what you choose to do after the fact that makes the person you are RIGHT NOW.

I wish you only the best-and hopefully your H will realize what type of person you are right now and that change can happen to all of us.

InnerStrength

Thank you, IS. I wish I could do more to help your WW...I hope she's still lurking here and reading, and realizes that your willingness to extend forgiveness to her is a precious gift, and that she has the chance to do her part to rebuild an amazing M with you...and if she IS lurking here and reading:

strugglingaz, I hope also that you realize all of this - and just how fortunate you are, before it is too late. People here on this board do care about you, your BH, and your M.

That's what I thought. I ask only because I'm comparing to my own situation. See, we're approaching 3 years post-D-day this September, and I'm only now starting to get a handle on the self-worth of now as opposed to spiraling emotionally out of control and being utterly rudderless when I dwell on the affair. Does that make sense? I'm sure much of that self-worth/emotional stability progress is due to my DH's own presence and journey through this recovery, without which I would guess the whole self-worth thing would take quite a bit longer.

It takes time. I know, I know, but the more time goes by, the more I see how true that is: It. Takes. Time.

WPG.

I've never posted to you before, but I do follow along and I am very impressed with your growth. I hope that doesn't sound condecending, cause it's not meant to be in any way.

I just wanted to share a little part of my W's and my recovery. My W struggled with the whole forgiveness, shame, etc that every wayward in recovery does, if they truly get it.

At one point in our recovery, one of the guys who works for me made a BIG mistake. So big, he thought he was going to be fired. He was a wreck. Good employee, hard worker, smart, fun to be around. Type you don't want to lose. But he F'd up, bad.

He was in my office a day after the incident and was almost in tears asking me if he was going to keep his job. I asked him if he'd learned anything from this incident? He replied yes, that he'd never make that stupid mistake again. And I knew he was right. So I told him, "Listen, everyone in the world makes mistakes. The true measure of a person is how they respond to those mistakes".

Later that night, W and I were talking about our day's at work and I was telling her this story. When I told her what I'd told my employee about his mistake, she looked at me and got some tears in her eyes and asked "Do you really believe that"? I grabbed her and held her for a bit and looked her square in the eyes and said "YES". And it was as if a huge weight had been lifted off her shoulders.

Being the BS in our marriage, I fully know the pain caused by an A. But I also know that my W has had her own he!! to deal with and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

The point of all this is, YOU, WPG, get it. It might not save your marriage, but how you react to your mistakes is the true measure of a person.

And one more comment. Personally, I don't think your H is done yet. I think he's testing your resolve...seeing if you're in it for the long haul. I know that's one thing I still struggle with some, even 3 years after our recovery began. Is she really here to stay?

Keep doing what you're doing, for as long as you can handle it. You might be surprised at the outcome.

H4U

Mrs. V, you said:


Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. There are days I wonder what's the point. It goes along with wishing that he and I could help each other heal. As I've said, I know I will heal, some day. I don't believe it will be complete, though, without him. And I'm not talking about forgetting here, b/c I know even if by some miracle our M recovers, neither of us will ever forget what I did. I just believe in my heart that H and I were brought together for a reason, that he and I were meant for each other, and that we're uniquely qualified to help each other heal the best. Don't know if that makes sense. Another man (not just OM, any other man) is not going to repair the damage I caused, either to my life or to myself, because another man is not going to "get" the extent of it. He's not going to "get" me like H does. OM never made me a better person...but H did.

@H4U, thank you for your support! I wish I could believe that H wasn't done w/me yet, but for every little positive thing there's a negative. It does give me some hope to see couples who have made it through this, but at the same time it's just hard to get my hopes up anymore, you know?

I just get so down sometimes, and I'm sitting here at work crying and feeling stupid and useless. After all, this whole thing was my fault. I'm hurt by H's actions, but I can't blame him for them.


lol...my mother, my friends IRL, my IC, H's aunt, the Christian MC we went to for a while last year...they all keep telling me till they are blue in the face that I have to forgive myself. I haven't, and to tell the truth, I don't believe in my heart that it is possible for me to do that. I am capable of repenting and trying to make amends, and to try to live a better life and be a better mother and wife. The wife thing may not end up being possible...I keep saying I have accepted that, but acceptance doesn't mean it stops the hurt.


What sticks with me sometimes is that in the beginning, even after January of last year when the whole truth came out, that he told me, over and over, that he chose to forgive me. Maybe he forgave too quickly, I don't know. Or maybe he has forgiven on some level, but (as JL said in another thread), forgiveness doesn't mean you have to give someone another chance ever again.

I still don't understand how he can hold me in his arms in bed and yet holds me at arms' length the rest of the time.

I'll keep doing what I am doing, because he means that much to me.

I understand. Boy, this really resonates with me. Thank you for sharing this, WPG. I don't have anything to magically fix it, just wanted you to know you're not alone.

I still don't understand how he can hold me in his arms in bed and yet holds me at arms' length the rest of the time.

I'll keep doing what I am doing, because he means that much to me. [/quote]

I have been following your thread. I understand the confusion you are going through and the determination you have. Keep going and wishing the best for you.

My bh is the same way.

((((Mrs.V))))

I wish there was a magic wand for all of us, you know?

I cold turkeyed my AD's yesterday. I was on Wellbutrin, had read that w/drawal from WB was not supposed to be an issue. Let's just say I was glad the school called and I left work before lunch to p/u DD#1, since I pretty much cried from the time I got to work till the time I left. I figure the crying spells are better than the wierd hallucinations I had started to have w/WB. I took the stuff years ago but must not have taken a high enough dose or taken it long enough, but seriously, WTH??? I started hearing things - the house would be quiet and I'd hear a baby crying, radio playing, a siren in the distance. Several times I thought the garage door was opening (that was probably wishful thinking) or my cell ringing. My dreams started to get very vivid and strange. On Sunday I was convinced DD#1 had spilled her dinner - I saw it happen - and she looks at me like I am nuts. I quit taking that cr@p. That is just bizarre.

I forgot to have the girls call H tonight. It was just a nutso day, after picking DD#1 up, we went home for a while and ate and layed on the couch for a bit. She was OK, she'd bumped her head yesterday and went back to the nurse's office complaining about a headache today. She bounced around like Tigger the rest of the day so she's fine...anyway our "routine" was sort of messed up and I was pooped by the time they got out of the tub...I got sidetracked and just didn't even think about it. Then he texts me to say he has not heard from them (stupid me, when I see a text from him I think maybe he wants to see me! I am a great big idiot), and they are already in bed. So I immediately think, great, something else I have done wrong. I want so much to please him, but I feel like I can't do anything right.

I know missing the phone call may not seem like much, but on top of that I finally figured out in the last couple of days (duh) that he's also not using the joint checking account anymore. I was keeping up with all his debits and trying to do a good job with the financials for him, and now I feel like he doesn't trust me to handle it. He has another checking account that he set up last summer when he got his new car. I'm assuming he's either using that or spending cash, he's never said a word to me, but all his charges have just stopped. I can't access the other account, so I don't know for sure, nor do I know what - or who - he is spending money on. I guess it isn't my business anymore anyway.

So it just feels like he's pulling further and further away. This place is the only place in the world where I'm told not to give up, where my feelings for H are validated. I think everyone else thinks I am an idiot for loving and missing him, and that I should just wash my hands of this mess I created and move on.

And then I see today that strugglingaz is still contacting her POSOM. It disgusts me. I would give anything for another chance with my H. And she has that chance, and it means nothing to her. What a waste.

Anyway...I am going to try and take a break from the kvetching and moaning I do on this thread (I know I do a lot of this: ) and stick to other threads where maybe I can do something useful!

wulffpack.
The self flagellation will not work , neither will the contining sack cloth and ashes. You are grinding yourself into an emotional mess. labeling the om a pos doesn not do you good either. By doing that you are labeling yourself the same. Stop it Try and see the om as a human who is lacking in some ways as are you. As you begin to see others , sinners and saints in a better light you will begin to see yourself in a better light. The human condition is often a series of messes and successes. If you dare , ask your husband if he wants to destroy you emotionally. wait for his answer. Likely he will say no . you dont have to answer. He may be able to think about this when he is alone.

I think this is very easy for one to say when they are looking in from the outside. It is much harder to execute when you are living a nightmare of your own creation.


I think it's absolutely necessary to recognize the POS-like qualities of affair partners. Sure, WPG equates her actions and sometimes even herself with the POS-like title - and I think any repentant wayward should view their wayward selves accordingly. This is all that self-esteem stuff that is difficult to work on. It's something she's identified in the last, oh, I don't know, pages and pages of her thread. And it's something she's working on.


I absolutely disagree with this. See above. NC is NC = no thoughts of OM, especially not forgiving thoughts. The AP's presence was a cancerous growth -- cut it out and move on. Don't give it a second thought - don't invite it back.


I absolutely do agree with this. neverknewyou, I understand what you're saying about how we are all human and how we all make mistakes. I'm not sure it's wise, though, to be jumping into a thread with recommendations that don't demonstrate a sound knowledge of MB and, in fact, could further damage an already emotionally messy situation. Just my $.02.


Oooh, I would really not advise that. You're asking an obviously hurting and still-bleeding victim to offer up what little strength he has left to his perpetrator. While WPG is moving through recovery, her BH is not (yet?!) committed to recovery, and asking him in such a manner to think of WPG will only hurt the marriage. IMO.

***
Sorry, WPG, I don't want to speak for you, nor do I intend to be the resident police for your thread. However, I thought it worthwhile to weigh in on this post, if only for lurkers/future readers of this thread.


***
neverknewyou, I suggest you start your own thread and tell us your story. Also, please keep reading on this site -- especially the Basic Concepts and the general info posts at the top of each forum. It's great to see new faces around here, and exciting to think of sharing MB concepts with another marriage, but it is better if we get to know you on your own thread before you start weighing in on other threads with what may be well-intentioned but misplaced advice.

Ms vanilla. Read carefully, I didn not in no way suggest contact. please reread. Im in wulffpacks place in this. By asking her husband to reflect is not asking him to jump in and finish her off. Its to get him to think more deeply regarding what he is doing. If you are paying attention, you will recongnize that what wulffpack girl has been doing isnt working. Do you advocate continueing doing the same things to keep getting what you have been getting? Sometimes , the knee jerk reactions or the obvious behavior isnt what is needed. If she can forgive the om then she stands a better chance of forgiving herself. You say its necessary to recognise the pos qualites of the other person. The things that make for pos people are not qualities. I am looking in from the inside. I have posted on another site ,but honesty it depresses me to write about my wife. I have learned a lot reading . I have also learned not to go labeling people as it comes back to us.

Hi WPG,

am not chiming in here other than to say Hi and to tell you that i want to change your H's name from "broken2009" to "repaired 2011" once he gets with the program. would give my arm to have my W as remorseful. pretty sure that THAT is not going to be happening anytime soon. am keeping you, your H and your D's in my thoughts and my prayers as my sitch takes a turn for the worse. what can you do? SOL said it best tho...

LET GO, LET GOD.

take care.

SMM

You know, the interesting thing is that I don't really see that my H really is overtly doing anything to "destroy" me emotionally. He's simply removed himself from a M where his wife was unfaithful. He's not saying hurtful things. Probably 90% of the time he ignores my attempts at olive branches. It's probably kinder for him to ignore me; at least he is not saying anything negative or cruel, or saying something that gives me false hope. I allow him to have sex with me. He's not forcing me to do anything I don't want to do. I could put a stop to it. I choose not to. The 10% of the time he responds positively to me...well, I have to keep trying, right?

I don't believe he's out to emotionally destroy me. I think he's just trying to protect himself from someone who he sees as a dangerous person: me.

I do far more to emotionally destroy myself than my H does.

neverknewyou, I appreciate your input on my thread. Would you care to share your story with us on the boards? I know you say it depresses you to write about your W, I guess I am curious if you have survived infidelity in your M? Were you a BH? Do you have any experiences you could relate about your own recovery that could help others here? I apologize if I am being too nosy!

I could choose to forgive the OM for his role in all of this, and maybe it makes me less of a person because I choose not to. But I am also choosing not to dwell on him. That's what Mrs_V was referring to with NC - you see, contact can just be one-sided. If I was sitting around, trying to see OM as a "good" person, do you see how that could be detrimental to my personal and marital recovery? OM was not a good person. He did not respect me.

And during my A, I was not a good person either. I had no respect for myself, or my H, or my wedding vows, or the family we had together.

As to self-forgiveness? I think, as GO advised, I'm taking it off my "to-do" list. If my DH forgives me someday, then I hope he will be able to help me forgive myself. If not, then the closest I will ever be able to come is acceptance. Accepting the things I cannot change.

Accepting that I am not the woman I was 2 years ago, but at the same time accepting that I cannot undo the things I did then.

And I realize that nothing I've been doing is working. I've tried a bazillion things, but I can't draw my H back to the M. Kind of to a point where no one really has any new suggestions for things I can do, other than personal recovery. If marital recovery is to happen, the ball's in H's court now.

Thanks, SMM...I'd give my right eye (H would know what I meant with that one!) to have my H's forgiveness and to have him back by my side. I hate to hear your sitch has taken a downward turn - post an update and let us know what's going on, OK? I'll be thinking and praying for you & yours as well. (((SMM)))

WPG, no your husband is not directly trying to harm you, but what he is doing is taking from you with no regard to what he is giving back. Even the BH in me says thats wrong. I would walk off first. I'll repeat myself, but if he wants SF, he takes you out on a date and meets your needs back. Period.

Neverknewyou, not sure what other site you are on, but you will find a few things here - there is a large 2010/2011 BH group here that supports each other, see the mens recovery thread plus about six individual threads on the go right now. Secondly, the philosophy here is much more united around one set of principles - which I like because there is less fighting on the threads. One good plan is better for everyone than arguing over three different paths when what you really need is a plan and a concensus. If you do start your own thing here, the support will come quick. But I do know what it is to not what to talk anymore. Good luck to you brother.

Do waywards have serious depression issues? What are the side effects of the defog on the wayward if they realize how bad they messed up?

You hear the jokes on here about what the waywards say and do, and/or "Life of the wayward!"

I have not ever lived my life as a criminal. I have followed the rule of law, felt I was a great friend with empathy, and overall feel I am a great person.

I see three things happening for the wayward

1) They stay in waywardness and continue the denial, lies, deceipt. Doesn't this always result in a life that is very unfulfilling. If a wayward stays in this mindset how can they possibly live their future happy and have deep intimate relationships with the opposite sex?

2) The wayward comes out of the fog and then is hit by this deep anguished depression. Once this occurs this gives the wayward a chance to recover themselves, or

3) They wayward comes out of the fog and then stays in this state of depression which manifests itself again in a wayward form.

Really the only healthy option for the wayward is #2, hit rock bottom, and then figure out how to better oneself.

All other options lead to a life filled with utter pain and devastation.

Am I wrong on my assumptions? Any thing I am overlooking here?


I just want to add that my emotions as a BW can mirror yours WPG. I can read your threads with deep empathy and sympathy because I feel awful for neglecting my WH needs and hence having him run into the arms of OW. I have to forgive myself for this, and it is hard because WH hasn't forgiven me yet.

In the eyes of everyone around me they all say how well I am doing, and life will be great. Just put WH out of your mind, pretend he is dead tough!!!

As I read your threads I feel the pain my WH will feel once and if he comes out of the fog. I almost want to understand you in hopes that when he does return I can be the empathetic and forgiving spouse who understands what he is going through.

Cheers Tough~

Side effects - I think you see them to a degree in all FWS's, whether their M is recovered or not. For me, nonexistent self-esteem/low self-opinion. Feelings of worthlessness. Early on, suicidal thoughts. Loss of interest in work, hobbies, life in general.

You're dealing with the realization that you trashed the vows you took before God. You promised to love, honor, and cherish this person, and you basically took that and crapped on it. The person who is the mother or father of your children, the one who has helped you build a life together...and your actions totally disrespected all of that.

The one person you promised in front of God and family to protect, you failed. You hurt them worse than the death of a child, worse than raping them. You've betrayed them. You realize that you are a traitor.

You've gone against your own moral code. You weren't raised to believe that M was disposable. Perhaps you saw first-hand the devastating effects of infidelity and divorce.

And in my case, I'm mourning the death of the dreams that will never be. I will never sit on the front porch, old and gray haired, with my H by my side, as my grandparents (who were married 50 years) used to sit in the backyard together and watch the purple martins in the summertime. We will not sit together, side by side, at our daughters' college graduations. At their weddings. We will not be able to share being grandparents together.

When you realize either how much you could have lost, or in my case, how much I have lost, and you did it for nothing? You have nothing to show for it? If a FWS never feels depressed, I can't understand why.

And maybe it's selfish thinking, b/c I truly think that if my H wanted to reconcile, that he's uniquely qualified to help me heal from what I did. Another man can't do that. I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but that's how I feel.

I think that during a true recovery, both parties have a lot to forgive. The BS has the most to forgive in the immediacy of the A. For a true R, though, both parties have to address the pre-A M and where they failed along the way - not that any of those failures justify an A, but when we accept that we are each 50% responsible for the state of our M, it means we have to ask forgiveness for where we fell short along the way and work to make the M better in the future.


I think those are pretty spot-on, Tough. I would add to #2, "a chance to recover themselves and their marriage if the BS is willing."

Any life where one continues wayward is bound to be empty and unfulfilling. Look at any addict, and what they give up - and lose - chasing that high. It's the same for an unrepentant wayward, I would guess - they spend the rest of their lives searching for their next "fix," and when the current flavor of the month doesn't give it to them, they look elsewhere, because they believe they are entitled to do so. They are unable to build lasting relationships.

ANy addict has to hit rock bottom and choose to rise up.

What say others on this? Think there are possibilities for the WS other than these three? I think one could possibly remain depressed and just never come out of it, if they do lose everything. Although that could just be my own personal fear talking.

And Tough, thank you for your support...I'm so sorry for what you are dealing with and I hope your WH wakes up and pulls his head out of his keester and realizes what he's losing...

Thank you, GO...I hope it helps some of the new WS's who come here. I especially think of how many I've seen in just my short time here that come and then disappear, and I wonder what happens to them...do they ever wake up and realize what they are doing? I hope so...but I'm kind of afraid that they probably never do.