�Life's real failure is when you do not realize how close you were to success when you gave up.�

This fits me so closely.


The first time I took my Anatomy and Physiology 1 course, I was so convinced that I had failed it, that I didn't even bother to show up for the last lab practical or the final.

After missing both of those critical tests (which resulted in a 0 score for both) I earned a "D" in the course.

Not an F, a D. With a 0 on large-weight tests.

I gave up long before I had lost.

I can say that moment is a defining one for myself. I knew then that the battle is never over, until it is over - and never a moment sooner.

Be too busy this weekend to post up, so I'll get it in now.

Sunday will be 1 year since NC - though I didn't get the full truth for another 5 months.

I feel like a whiner when I look at what this new crop of BH's are dealing with, and I'm sure there are some other BH's that can look at my story and feel the same.

In a way, it's one of the things that makes this a place to come to and breathe. It's too bad, but you look at some of the crap people are putting up with, and you go "Well, at least I don't have it that bad!"

It's madness, though. I haven't looked the other way, and went... "Well, if she had only had an 'EA,' it wouldn't be so bad."

We will compare up, but we won't compare down. Wonder why?

We don't want any of it.

We don't even want Jimmy Carter adultery. When you haven't faced real betrayal, his little quip seemed like an honest admission. I think, in a way, it still is. I can't lie, I have felt the pull - I have been offered the chance on several occasions throughout my marriage. Knowing that I could and totally would was the only thing that kept me from it.

Yes, at times I even WANTED to. Really really bad. Because of that, I protected myself more. I don't know what it's like to cross that line. I don't know what it's like to give in to selfishness, and thoughtlessness - I imagined it, though. I thought it all through from one wrong touch or phone call to playing the deception game - and it just wasn't me.

This past year sucked. It's been the most painful thing I have ever experienced, and I'm not through the storm yet. In fact, the end isn't too close to sight. OM may be long gone, but FWW still works with his sister. Whatever or whoever she is to the place of work, to FWW, all she is to me is a daily reminder of betrayal. In fact, I came to the conclusion some time ago, that this woman was a deciding and contributing factor to the mindset that lead FWW into her A.

First it was "sleepovers" every once and a while... girls night out and all. Then FWW and her decided to take mushrooms on one of the sleepovers... though FWW know I would totally not go for that. Then it was whatever friendly triangle they had going at work, OM's sister watching as her brother - who she admittedly knows is scum - weaved a web for an all-to-willing married woman.

Then there was the other married coworker that was always drooling about some other young "piece of meat" pretty brazenly. I'm quite sure her and FWW sat there at work exchanging tongue-wags about their respective crushes.

And FWW still works with these women every day. I hear their names, every day. I see the OM's sister at least once a week.

I doubt she'd ever pass a message, my worry isn't an NC hole - it's as simple as this; these people are irreparable triggers and it's getting worse rather than better.

Maybe I'm terrible. I don't worry about NC. I monitor the channels I can, but I don't worry because to some point... I just don't care.

Let it happen. I'd be done. I could walk and be over it. No more pain, no more anger. Just clean air and a chest that could finally draw some breathe.

No more crying through my 20 minute drive to school, no more crying on the whole drive home, no more wondering when I am going to be able to control it or not.

No more watching a movie, thinking it's great... then getting sucker punched when you realize the woman George Clooney has been having booty calls with all over the country... is married - and then she calls him the child, the fantasy...

No more looking at the faces of my children every day, dying inside, and not being able to tell them the truth.

I don't know... I'm trying to hold on.

Redid ENQ's today... FINALLY. Last ones were 8/31/10. This time my top 3 were; O&H, AD, AF - with CO and SF rounding out the top 5.

Strangely enough, FWW's ENQ echoed mine. It was like that the first time, too.

The hard part is that we are on completely different levels when it comes to conversation. Of course, a part of this is simply gender difference, but we also have different interests, different passions.

The only thing that I have changed is to just listen and allow her to talk.

She has always done that to me. I'm kind of an information sponge. The two things she tells me she fell in love with me for are my arrogance and my big...


So, when she gets curious about something science-ish, she picks my brain.

Needed that vent.

Off to bed.

HHH, you've given me words of support and encouragement along the way, and sometimes I feel like I can't really give a lot back, because I can never fully understand the depths of the pain a BS feels. But I want to say that to me, it sounds like you're doing a heckuva lot more than just "trying" to hold on. You've got your nails sunk deep in this whole recovery thing. You've got tenacity. You keep fighting, HHH! And in the midst of your fight, you've got enough in you to help others here on the boards...tenacity.

I don't know what to offer as far as the triggers you face from the women your FWW works with. I have learned that people - whether we've had infidelity affect us or not - should not be friends with anyone who is an enemy to our M. We already know the no friendship rule as it pertains to the opposite sex - I'm talking about the same gender friendship here. Have you talked to your W about how her continued association with these women makes you feel? Tried to POJA a solution? Because if that's making things worse for you, you have to let her know. Let's suppose my H decided he would come home, give everything he's got to recovery, would do MB, talk to the Harleys, the whole bit - but had one condition - he said my work environment was triggering him and he wanted me to quit my job?

I'd quit my job. It's just a job, after all. Economy be damned, I'd find a new one.

It's in the cards, just not for a while. I graduate in December then it's back to work.

I don't know who I help, or how much. I try. I'm rough, dry, and sometimes counter to a lot of things. I hope I do help, it's what I mean to do.

Thanks, WPG.

I do have my nails dug in. It just friggin hurts some times.

You KNOW this is poison to your Recovery, right?

What does your W think about continued contact with the OM sister??? Has she ever asked you how you felt about it?

Yes, yes I do. I definitely felt it the other day. On the occasions that she is working the same days as FWW I just try to be civil. OM's sister was not aware of the depth of what was going on until after I tried to expose to OM's GF and she got drug into it. That only exacerbated my strong dislike for OM's sister, and caused me to realize how involved she was in creating the conditions to make the A possible. She wasn't directly involved, she wasn't a lookout... but she laid out the blueprints.


She doesn't like going to work any more. Once I graduate and start working again, she is going to quit and go back to school.

They don't work together often, but my own contact with her sends me spinning, so I am planning on avoiding contact at all costs from here out.

When will you be done with school? Has your W made any efforts to find other employment?

I graduate in December.

OM's sister almost got an opportunity at another store, but that fell through.

No efforts for another job, we are counting days until she is done there. At this juncture, another job would/could be just as much of a strain on the M as the people she works with. She is a department supervisor, and has a schedule that maximizes our UA opportunities and FC time.

I'll have to talk to her to see how much strain it puts on her, though.

Either by evidence of my deteriorating condition, or by the fact she didn't take her E-reader to work on Monday, and she browsed the forums, FWW picked up the rope on this one.

We had a longer timeline for her leaving previously, one that would maximize her pay when she left. The plan is for me to work at a dialysis clinic, and then she is going to go back to school and not work.

She has shut out her coworkers for now, and I plan to avoid any future sight or sound of OM's sister until quittin time comes.


So, a little self-reflection on my withdrawal and propensity to give in to sacrifice.

Outwardly, it causes me to be guilty of at least 3 LBs;

1) Dishonesty (by omission)
2) Independent behavior - this is through trying to handle an issue that affects us both.
3) Disrespectful judgment - assuming that my own emotional state does not effect my FWW.

Work in progress...

Feel a little better that it was on her initiative and not yours?

Though my FWW quit her job w/OM the day of exposure, she kept in contact with two female co-workers. The co-workers did not enable the affair and, in all honesty, I have nothing against them as I seriously doubt they even knew of it. I just have everything against their employer and the POS that works there with them. Like your situation, it was a constant trigger for me and one that I expressed last month. She hesitated, validated my feelings but dismissed them and told the co-workers not to mention OM. Hmmm. Not good. I sank deeper.

Then 1.5-weeks ago when she committed to recovery, she voluntarily cut them off just to protect me. Wow. And, surprise surprise, it's helped me out not having that "what if they accidentally tell FWW about OM in conversation" in the back of my mind.

So that's why I ask if you feel a little better now. Hope so, and once you get the h out of that town you can finally get rid of these stupid triggers that we all have.

Yes, I agree with that. It does make me hesitate to complain when I read of all the mess that others are dealing with.


Tell you what, having been on the receiving end of my wife's PA in 2002 and the EA last year, there is no difference in how you feel. I actually feel like the EA was worse--there was more of a connection, and the "love" word was mentioned.


Up in the Air, or something like that? I freaking hated that movie for the trigger that it gave me. Dumb, huh?

Thanks for peeking in, North.


So, I'll preserve my little revelation here.

I have to admit, that Pre-A, I had come to hate my wife. Years of sacrifice and "waiting for things to get better" ultimately collapsed on me. It wasn't simply withdrawal... I hated her.

Divorce wasn't on the table, cheating wasn't something I could do - plenty of opportunities over the years, and a definite draw to, but that just caused me to protect myself around women. I was simply hanging on, trying to finish up school, thinking that once I improved the FS and work schedule sitations, things would naturally get better. However, I wanted very little to do with her in the meantime.

Her response to my withdrawal, when she entered conflict, was a text-book flurry of LB behaviors. She honestly didn't know how to get my attention, because it had always been given (at her convenience, of course).

It feels like the roller coaster changes the Romantic Love threshold, and not the LB$ balance. For her part, she doesn't really LB - she still watches the same TV shows that had taken all of her time before, but this is not done during time we could be spending together. Some of them that I enjoy at least somewhat, I will watch with her here and there.

Presently, I am either on a huge even keel (about a month) of the coaster, or the grieving process is over. I'm betting I'm done grieving.

However, I have to submit to the fact that her LB$ deficit with me is HUGE, and her choices really only drove that balance lower.

The result? 1 year in (or... 8 months with full disclosure) I'm simply not in love with my wife yet. She tells me, and behaves like, she is head-over-heels for me, which is good, but it kinda sucks that I am not really reciprocating right now.

So, I have to hold on to a few things; the same patience and drive that kept me holding on to a wife who I couldn't stand to be in the same room with, and the knowledge that just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it can't happen.

Truthfully, this is stronger than my original position; make the conditions best for me to leave (getting FWW driving, finish school so I could support my DD's properly).

It's a marathon...

I'll agree with the hate part as, looking back, I can say that I resented the hell out of my wife for a lot of things that she, honestly, didn't know even bothered me. And it went both ways, kind of funny how that works.

For some reason, the thought that my resentment and LB's would cause her to react negatively (affair) never crossed my mind. In my mind, she was the one that had to straighten up, not me, because I was right, she was wrong and the world is round. Period. Or so I thought.

Talk about neither one of us having empathy for the other. I'm not proud at all for any of it. And neither is she.

So we go foward from that and, as my thread reads, I'm kind of oscillating every two days on average. Today's an up day.


What could she do to change that?

What do you do when you have a mountain of debt?

Keep making payments, making big payments when you can.

She's doing it. It's just a massive deficit to overcome. The difference is, I'm not going anywhere.

I definitely was far from "right" for the 2 years prior to the A... though I was trying to fight it out a bit in 2009. However, I had stopped complaining, as all the years of complaint prior did no good anyway.

And, I definitely wasn't "right" to sacrifice as much as I did for as long as I did. I thought I was doing the "right thing" by my wife and children... heck, I toughed it out for 6 years before I imploded. I just never really planned on imploding.

Anything she could do or say to make a larger payment? Food for thought.

I, too, learned that sacrificing (being a martyr?) doesn't work in the end. Just makes the resentment worse and is somewhat self-fulfilling.

So...what do we all need, then? More patience?

I dunno, North. Martyr doesn't seem to fit. I didn't have a name for it until I came here. At the time, I didn't even view being the bottom of the pile as sacrifice, I viewed it as my station as a husband and father. It was what I was supposed to do.

You see, I was a teenager when my brother's first wife had her A. He explained to me that he had withdrawn after their first daughter was born because he had fallen from "the top of the pile." A first-time mother often has a child-centered universe. He withdrew pretty quickly, and his XW's boss was a predator; saw the opening, and made his move.

I took that mindset in when FWW and I got married; we have kids, I am not priority. Yes, it bothered me at times, but not being second to the children. It was when I was second to everything else. I justified it away, "She needs down-time, she's a mother and working..."

In my head, I was simply doing the right thing, and I made sure that I didn't neglect my wife. Tried to make the best I could of the time she "had left" for me, made sure to be affectionate, continued to do things like surprise her with gifts. My thinking was that not being satisfied with the scraps she gave me in return was nothing more than selfishness on my part.

I had no concept of a LB$, and really didn't think continuing on that way was any kind of detriment.

Every once in a while, conflict would raise it's head. When it came to AH and IB, those were not addressed well; AO and SD on my part. SF I approached gingerly, but not very often.

So, maybe there was suffering on my part, but I hadn't thought I was doing so willingly, and thought it just selfish and thankless on my part.


As far as bigger deposits; that's the focus of MB - to identify the most important emotional needs to make the biggest deposits. We did a ENQ review last month, and of course my needs had shifted since the last time. SF isn't even in my TOP 5 for now. It's mainly admiration and affection, and FWW works on those things (seemingly effortlessly).

I've got patience, and a FWW who is more than committed to making this work, so I don't really worry. Just kinda sucks that I allowed such a deficit to be created with complacency.

Current musical obsession; Baba Brinkman.

Won't post any, though. Rationalism is offensive to some.

Anyway, his TEDxTalks performance was awesome when relating evolutionary psychology.

Currently, however, I can't stop listening to Off That (The Rationalist Anthem).

It's all pseudo.

FWW's ringtone;



I don't wanna be the girl who laughs the loudest
Or the girl who never wants to be alone
I don't wanna be that call at four o'clock in the morning
'Cause I'm the only one you know in the world that won't be home

Aahh, the sun is blinding
I stayed up again
Oohh, I am finding
That's not the way I want my story to end

I'm safe
Up high
Nothing can touch me
But why do I feel this party's over?
No pain
Inside
You're my protection
But how do I feel this good sober?

I don't wanna be the girl who has to fill the silence...
The quiet scares me 'cause it screams the truth
Please don't tell me that we had that conversation
When I won't remember, save your breath, 'cause what's the use?

Aahh, the night is calling
And it whispers to me softly, "come and play"
Aahh, I am falling
And if I let myself go, I'm the only one to blame

I'm safe
Up high
Nothing can touch me
But why do I feel this party's over?
No pain
Inside
You're like perfection
But how do I feel this good sober?

I'm comin' down
Comin' down
Comin' down
Spinnin' round
Spinnin' round
Spinnin' round
Looking for myself.. Sober

Comin' down
Comin' down
Comin' down
Spinnin' round
Spinnin' round
Spinnin' round
Looking for myself.. Sober

When it's good, then it's good, it's so good, 'till it goes bad
Till you're trying to find the you that you once had
I have heard myself cry
Never again
Broken down in agony
And just trying to find a friend

I'm safe
Up high
Nothing can touch me
But why do I feel this party's over?
No pain
Inside
You're like perfection
But how do I feel this good sober?

I'm safe
Up high
Nothing can touch me
But why do I feel this party's over?
No pain
Inside
You're like perfection
But how do I feel this good sober?

How do I feel this good sober?

Fly out for LA on Sunday, then 3 days in Disneyland and California adventure with the wife n kids.

Identified an LB. Needed to work over the summer to keep the finances stable until I get my fall financial aid package. FWW kind of hen pecked it obsessively. Over and over and over. She did this before about school.

I told her tonight; I need you to stop. I love you, but if I need your help or guidance, I will ask for it. Talking about it for entire days is not pleasant.

...and how'd that go over?