Yes, you can. And you should. Not now, when you're furious over the way the jerk is acting, but when you are calm and collected, you need to tell all the kids that their father has been having inappropriate relationships with other women.

They do not need to know any more details than that. But they deserve to know the truth. Otherwise they will think that Mom and Dad's marriage fell apart for no reason. They might be afraid that the same thing will happen to them.

Also, you need to get your lawyer to file for interim support if he's not providing for you and the kids appropriately.

And NEVER trust him to do the right thing with a joint account. If you do not have your own separate account, open one immediately like TODAY, and then transfer money that you and the children need over to that account.

I'm so sorry he's acting like such a jerk. (((((HavingFaith)))))

HF,

I know exactly how you're feeling. My STBXWW is still living in the house, and plays "good mom" for DS when he's around. As soon as he's in bed...out the door she goes. Also going out to dinner with who-knows-who, and lieing to DS about where she's going. She also continues to spend money like it's ever-abundant on clothes, shoes, etc. Can't wear old "us" clothes out on a date right?

The time is slowly approaching when I will tell DS an age-appropriate truth. I know that EVERY book, article, whatever says not to villify the other parent. But, I see it how Kirby does. He'll know eventually. He'll watch his mother openly "dating" as soon as she's out of the house. I'm 80% positive of that.

I also don't like backing up her lies. I remove every ounce of credibility I've built with DS, if I lie to him. Even if it's "for his own good". Integrity is at my very core, and it's a trait I couldn't imagine DS not learning.

Keep venting here. The kids deal with enough emotion without all of this.

You need to tell him, and soon, before your WW spins it to him. You don't need to give a 6 year old gory details, just say that mommy has been having boyfriends and when you are married you do not have boyfriends. Or you could say that mommy kisses other men when she is only supposed to kiss daddy.

My day started out good today...I went to counseling, where I left feeling like I was not the cause of this D...we talked about STXWH non-communicative style- and how he lives in a black and white world, which more than likely stems from his upbringing of overly critical parents... how living in this manner makes it difficult to understand that a M does not have to be all good or bad- there are shades in there- and that's okay...and this may be where his statement of "a good marriage should not be this hard." feeds into his leaving... I talked with him about my role in him not feeling safe to talk about M issues- he explained this could stem from issues of a child too... I felt great relief

Of course, my day shifted when my STXWH called...he wanted to talk about the things he wants from the house- tools and some nick-knacks in the computer room...in talking with him I said I thought it was totally ridiculous we were D bc he wants to eat lunch alone with a woman...basically the deal with that conversation was- you need me to do things to make you feel safe, that I am not willing to do... he sees me as being controlling, stating I was never happy... lol right never happy that he worked till 7:30-9 pm- no that did not make me happy...

we talked about at one point in our M- he would had bent over backwards not to hurt me- and now his attitude is I'm gonna do whatever, but know when I'm doing it- the point is not to hurt you- that's just an effect of the action...

hmmm...I type that out and I think- why want to be M to him anyway? I would not date someone with that attitude, I have not raised my boys with that thought process- why then is it okay for me? I guess with more time and distance I will see more of his behaviors for what they truly are...

later
havingfaith

Ah HF, your last post has compelled me to reply. This is a good thing because I was stuck for a bit,when it came to discussing my stbx. Sometimes I get stuck in my thoughts and I can't express them. They can overwhelm me and I just freeze, until something breaks it loose.

I do wonder if we're married to the same man.



My husband had black and white thinking, and critical parents. I didn't put those two together though. I use to tell my stbx that he had black and white thinking, well before he admitted once that he did. His admittance of that thinking came about after Dday, and some counseling. However, I believe he still had/has that mindset, when it came to our marriage anyway. The relationship with the kids were affected by his blk and white thinking as well. It was definitely difficult living with that. It does make more sense now that he couldn't take the bad with the good, while we worked things out.

I also use to tell him he acted like a fair weathered friend, which is very similiar to the above. The kids and I never felt "good enough" for him. If we were good enough, my stbx would be in a good mood. If not, we were given nasty looks, talked down to, and neglected.



I would love to know what issues from his childhood caused that. My stbx stated "he didn't feel safe to talk to me" numerous times. I always chalked it up to him not wanting to deal with the real issues, and dealing with my anger over his disrepectful actions. He would infuriate me with his constant lying, neglect, and thoughtless independent behavior, and he would use that to claim I wasn't safe.

I think I've changed in my attitude of how I would react to all of that now. I would just quietly state my boundaries, and then leave it at that with a firm but loving stance. Then if no POJA, just quietly left in plan B. That MAY have made a difference, I don't know. But at least he wouln't have been able to throw my anger back in my face. I've think I've grown in this area, and I'm proud of that. It's too bad he couldn't grow with me in the relationship. He always gave me the impression he thought I wasn't growing and he was. I think it's the other way around. All he did was get good at twisting things around to suit his desires.

What things did your husband throw back at you, that he claims made him feel unsafe? How did his upbringing play a role in that? My guess is that our stbx's will be similiar in that.



When my husband left, I was thinking that the only thing that was in our way was the fact that I couldn't live with him going to co-ed AA meeting without me. That seemed to be the main issue. As time goes on, I realize it's way more than that. He is just too plain selfish, and emotionally stunted to know how to have a close, respectful, caring, and intimate relationship. He couldn't do POJA, and he avoided all conflict until he burst with insults.



That was also one of the weapons my stbx would use on me when I wanted to work out a situation that was bothering me. He didn't care about my needs, if if meant his might go unmet. We actually did poja him not going to AA meetings, but he could never keep that commitment. I was willing to re-negotiate something, but he wasn't. Sounds like he was trying to control the relationship, instead of being a partner in it. Not what I want, or wanted.



Lol....my stbx said this too. He prided himself on being "open and honest" with his independent behavior too....lol.....He use to say stuff along the lines of "If he couldn't do what he felt was right for him, then he wasn't living "authentically". I wonder how that's going to work for him in his relationships down the road. I'm all about being open about what you want, and working with a partner to get that. But if it's going to hurt me in the process, I'm not going to become a resentful doormat, and that's what was happening. He treated me like a doormat and I reacted. Like I said, I should have left a loooooong time ago.




Those thoughts are what landed me in the attorney's office three times since d-dyear, although I never went through with it. I see now I should have. But, I thought we might have a chance, there were things I loved about him, so I was ultimately a buyer and I tried and tried. He just never could get over himself to make it happen for us. He was too wrapped up in getting his needs met mixed with the black and white attitude, along with a host of other issues....

With distance, you will continue to feel this. I do. I still feel alot of pain though, because like Itsa talks about, I still want the pipe dream. Or I did before he started screwing the new girl. I at least want him to wake up someday and "get it" and explain to me how he gets it. Won't hold my breath for that one. He'd probably have to be on his death bed, and his pride would have to die as well.

I guarantee you that I will never get involved with anyone who cannot do POJA. To me, that will show me that they are considerate and partner worthy.

Like me, I think it will take you plenty of time and distance from him to see just how messed up and unhealthy that relationship dynamic really was.

Here's to growing in a healthy direction HF.

Surprisingly, it sounds like your husband has some real insight. Let me re-state his position: There are changes I would have to make in order to be a real partner, and I am not willing to make those changes.

So there you have it. He doesn't want a partnership, and you -- justifiably -- do. Lunching alone with a woman is just a specific example of things he'd have to change if he signed onto a real partnership with you. Please don't sell yourself short by suggesting to him or to yourself that if he would comply on that single issue, then the marriage could be saved. Rather than any single behavior, I think you need to consider the spirit of his behavior. Is his behavior in the spirit of partnership? No.

Unfortunately, he expressed his position in a personal way -- making it sound like your expectations aren't reasonable. But I really want to stress that you don't have to take his words personally. This isn't about you. It's about his refusal to be a partner.

Too funny...


I too never felt good enough, however for me it stemmed from feeling second to his job, his OW, his wants...I would constantly say I feel like the poop on the bottom of your shoe...I just felt if I was "good enough" or he really cared he would not sit an let his family treat me poorly or put me/family on the back burner for his job/needs. It always felt like he did whatever- and its okay bc I would be here no matter what.


The counselor was referring to the fact that his parents were very critical and therefore he never learned to express himself...He tried to align himself with them to do the right thing, to be "right" to the point he never learned to have a voice... which I can see in him... I have known him since 8th grade (no we didn't date in school) and he is one of those people who goes along with others to fit in verses doing or saying what is true to yourself...

I have struggled with am I too critical as well... lately my STXWH has stated 2 things consistently "don't lecture me... and don't guilt me." The lectures are in the form of "you spent 400.00 this weekend, we don't have 400.00 for you to spend on clubs and clothes. We have bills. The kids need things that we cant get right now bc we dont have the extra money. Or hey the kids need to hear from you, you have only called them 3 times... this one flew out yesterday when he made me mad-You say you were only coming home bc of the kids, bc you wanted to see them- WTH is going on with you now bc you have only called 3 times with me calling you 2 times to tell you to call, your visits on your weekend last a total of 11 hours...you say they are important but you're not acting like it." Oh that last one was guilt and lecturing..

When he says I make him feel guilty bc he didn't remember an important event for the kids- I respond with I am telling you you missed it and it hurt the kids- your feelings of guilt are yours to own bc of the situation.


I realize this too, it's just I forget it sometimes...mine didn't burst into insults- he would just let it build up, have seething anger and escape from the M with inappropriate behaviors. This he has agreed is true.


I believe this to be true for me as well, it plays into their selfishness.

I struggled with feeling like a doormat after the A...My minister and I talked about it... I came to the conclusion that if I stayed in the R and the A continued or there were others, I was being a doormat...looking back, I believe I have been. For many years he's had the charmed life, everything he has wanted- not caring how it affects others.


I hold onto the pipe dream too... I think that's why the conversation with him went from what he was taking from the house to the ridiculousness of him leaving bc of lunch with a female co-worker...

I believe he is involved with someone else, if it is proven, it will be so much easier to let go of that dream- WITH HIM... I even asked if he was involved with someone and his response was "This isn't want the D is about." I asked him three times - his response was the same- until finally I said- ya know, I believe you are bc you would deny it otherwise. He then said- "I'm not involved with anyone"

I do believe you are right about time and distance... both of these things I've asked from him- which he does not respect... LOL the counselor asked "did you expect him to, since he didn't when you placed the other boundaries down." I am working on distancing myself from him in my mind...its so hard bc we have been married for 18.5 years... I feel like I've lost a big piece of myself. And I am so lonely... I know it'll get better... everyday, one small step at a time.

curious53,

You are right... regarding his insight, it has taken him a long time to state that and I believe he merely reframed what I said, so I don't know if he really gets it...

But you are right, that is his mindset period...not just this one instance...he looks at my request of shifting some of his behaviors as controlling him where I see them as protecting us... I firmly believe if his motives or thoughts behind this was different- our marriage could have been saved.

I agree he is refusing to be a partner...I know one day I will get off the phone with him and not question myself and the things I requested of him as a spouse... I will not question if I ran him off because I asked, said, or did... it will simply be he was unwilling to put forth effort, to respect my boundaries, he was just not wanting it... I'm ready for that day!

You'll get there. I promise!

I don't know what it is about today...maybe my STXWH comment stating I am controlling has been driving me nuts...

We revisited an old conversation where he wanted to go on a party bus to strip bars and hang out all night for a bachelor party... I told him I didn't want him to go and it would be hurtful to me if he did, that I was not feeling safe in the R... well that is what he spent money on last weekend...

Well let me back up, he met them at a bar, the guys all went out and he, his male roommate and some "others" went out drinking. The others he stated included the POW he works with...

So he tells me this and I say- you mean I expressed how I felt about you going out and fought over it and you didn't go? his response- I didnt want to go anyway, it was because I told him he couldnt go... I said I never said you COULD not go, it was I didnt want you to go- big difference...thats when he said you control me by making me feel guilty and saying what you dont want me to do...

so I ask, is that controlling... bc I feel it is me being O&H... I was not saying that to make him feel guilty... it was true, it would be hurtful....


If I'm wrong let me know bc I do not want to repeat poor behaviors any longer.

Honestly and directly telling him your preference is not controlling him.

But if he had a very controlling parents (who probably exerted their control through both direct and indirect means), he is probably conditioned to see controlling even when it's not there.

Can I ask: Why are you talking to him so much? Don't you think it would be healthier FOR YOU to follow the MB program and do Plan B?

These are very good questions.

It was tremendously helpful for me when I stopped taking my WHs phone calls. I strongly recommend Plan B.

I dont know why...maybe morbid curiosity...I'm sure it stems from my need to connect to him...it's hard right now bc we have so much still tied together- kids and bills...I so want to have some sort of civil relationship with him bc of the kids... I keep thinking for the kids the jack wagon can come over for the high school graduation party... only for the kids...

I know I need to stop talking to him...it hurts and upsets me...it's just so darn hard bc I want to talk with him- tell him about my day blah blah... I miss him... I wish I was not in this situation but I am and it bites!

This man is not your friend. If he were your friend you would not be in this situation. If you need to talk to somebody then call your mom, call a friend, start a blog, or post on your thread what you did today.

Also, you need to mentally redefine what a "civil" relationship looks like. Yes, you should have a civil relationship with your stbxh for the sake of your children.

According to dictionary.com, civil means: "affable, courteous, polite all imply avoidance of rudeness toward others. Civil suggests a minimum of observance of social requirements."

To maintain a civil relationship you must avoid rudeness. That's all. You do not have to go out of your way to be "nice" to this man who has treated you abominably.

After being married so long I think it's only normal to feel this way, you have experienced so many sit's together it's going to take a huge effort to change this. Talking to him and trying to connect is someway is only hurting you. Nothing good has come of your efforts.

Can you try treating/thinking of him as a client at work. Make your list of items that need to be discussed, go over them, then say "goodbye" NOTHING personal, end of conv. It may be tough at first, but you will probably feel much better in the end. Keep doing this and it will become a new habit. Like an above poster I agree STBX is not your friend, he is not trying to help you and make your day better!

Have ya'll set up separate bank accts ?

The less you see and know what he's up to the less it impacts your emotional well being

So true he is not my friend. It is hard for me to cut the person I thought was my best friend out of my life. But it is getting easier.


I so get this, but it's so hard.

Let me explain. Our son graduated from high school this weekend. I go to the ceremony with the boys and my family. I'm getting my camera out of the bag, where I've placed my phone and there is a message from him asking where we were sitting. I answer, thinking he wants to say hey to the boys. Then I get another one wanting to know if I see where our graduating son is sitting. I turn to my brother and I'm seriously- I'm not his binoculars. I dont respond. My phone dies, when I get home later that night to charge it, he and his sister both have sent me a text wanting to know where I was standing outside the building after the ceremony. I know it was to see our son- but really?

And what is this stuff about him suddenly being super polite. Like I text him, hey I'm at my girlfriends- please dropped the kids off there and not at the house. he ask for the address and then THANKS ME... I haven't had this many please and thanks yous from him in I don't know when...

On saturday he comes over to get the boys. They are still eating breakfast. He complements me on the house looking nice and states I'm gonna go check out the flower bed. Something we spend alot of time working on together.

He comes in and I tell him I spoke with a real estate agent who informs me of the work that we need to get done on the house. I treat him like a client. These are the things. He states they don't need to be done- like the foundation needing repair, which we had checked two years ago and it needed work then. I'm like "oh you're an engineer now?" After going back and forth, I asked "what is it you want me to do?" I now am getting 3 more companies to come out and look at the foundation again. Whatever?!?!

It gives me a little longer to live in the house, which helps me because I'm not having luck yet with a job.

But Sunday, Sunday was just weird to me. We had a graduation party at the house for family, close friends and some of our sons friends.

My STXWH would not leave. For the last two hours, after his family left, he sat in the formal dining area with my family, listening to the chit chat and laughter. It was strange.

Kinda like the kid in high school who wants to be in the group but doesnt know how to connect. And I would think, oh he's hanging out to be with the kids- no the kids were playing video games and hanging with their friends. It felt strange.

When he left I informed him I bagged his clothes- 11 lawn bags, and I'd help him. He didn't want to take them. He wouldn't say why- just I'll pick them up later. I told him NO...we cant afford for him to go out and spend another 240.00 on clothes because his clothes "didn't fit" and he "didn't have anything to wear" I then said everyone in this house knows you walked out, get over it, I'll go get them to help. He said no- cursed at me. Then I said we can take it out through the garage and they will not even see. He was fine with that.

The entire night, I did not engage in conversation with him. I was polite- no I don't need help. But when he wanted me to join in on a conversation regarding our family trip to Costa Rica last summer in comparing our zip lining experience to his parents experience from the cruise they had just gotten off of, I smiled, provided a one word answer and shut the dishwasher and left the room. That's all I have.

In a way I feel sorry for him. It's almost like the whole night he wanted to be part of the group- that was not accepting him. But then I have to remind myself- he choose this. I did not want a divorce. I encouraged him up until the last hour before we told the kids to reconsider. He simply feels this is the "best solution for the entire family."

Anyway, it was a long weekend of biting my lip and saying it's for the kids- its his graduation. I don't have to have him around again till birthdays in Feb.

No we have not set up separate bank accounts because we have not gone to court for support. I don't want to withdraw anything and be questioned about it later. I check the account often because I'm freaked out because the extra spending is causing me to need to transfer money from one account to the other so bills are covered.

I just don't understand what is going on with this jack wagon!?!

They said nothing to him...but what are they to do? we are all trying not to be rude because of the kids... he left and they were all like what the hell? ya know maybe in a few years itll be different- but not now, it's too fresh.


right, that is basically what I said to him.


my brother says the same thing...and I will from this point forward do that...

I have set up a google calendar and put the boys activities on it- this places all responsibility on him if he chooses to come... I no longer text or email him- he wanted it to be the kids job- our youngest is 6- IMO he's too young to bear that.


I know and it does suck!

But at least as I set there talking to him about the sell of the house all I could think of was your so freaking arrogant!

What about overnight visits? Should I push him to do this or let it stay the same 10-10 on Sat and 1-4 on Sunday? Part of me is fine with it bc I get to see the kids more on Sunday, but then I'm like dad up!