"In my marriage there was allways a push to put things in the past, and move on from here . . ."

That's where we are. Just had a conversation with her a few days back about her pushing, pushing, pushing me to put her affair behind us and move on. This is less than six weeks after I proved, through cell phone tower tracking, that she spent the night at OM's house when she was supposed to be on a trip to Chicago.

She is ashamed of what she's done, cannot bear to expose it by talking with me about it, and desperately wants it to be forgotten -- oh yeah, and on her accelerated time-line to boot . . .

Both WW and I read SAA and HNHN. MC has assigned us a lot of reading as well. Some of the assigned reading is very helpful. I'll just keep plugging away and take it one day at a time. I know I can't be at total peace with her until I know I have the whole story; at some point, she'll have to realize this as well.

glad the counselor is helping! The surgery went well. She is seeing the day after and we are very happy.

Things got tough toward the middle of July. We had a confrontation that was so painful, I finally went into vapor lock. Total emotional withdrawal. I took a little vacation from the pain for about three days.

Then, on Saturday morning the 16th, my wife sat down across from me with a cup of coffee and started recounting the history of her relationship with the OM, from start to finish.

Since that time, she has matter-of-factly answered each and every one of my questions -- truthfully, I'm confident.

I'm all out of questions! This breakthrough was huge!

My IC asked me to journal and wants me to bring in my journals. Over the last three days, my journal has consisted of a letter to the OM. It's unbelievable the weight that has been lifted from my shoulders by the combination of disclosure from my wife, and releasing my thoughts and feelings in a letter to the OM (which he'll never see, of course).

I have more confidence in my marriage today than at any time in the last four years.

P.S. Requested this thread be moved to the Recovery forum.

This is great news OWH! So all contact has stopped and there has been no "fog" from your wife since?

Been praying for ya!

CV

The only contact she had with her affair partner since D-day was when I kind of tricked her into calling him. They still thought his identity was a secret at that point, so she contacted him to "get their story straight" based on a conversation I had with one of her coworkers.

Once I presented the evidence and she gave him up, she immediately drafted a NC letter and we sent it to him. She said she had already verbally ended their relationship immediately upon my discovery of her affair, but that my involvement in seeking out his identity forced her to call him about two months later (the story-straightening phone call). My investigation supports this story.

The OM has pursued my wife aggressively for the past four years. Something happened back in 2008 that caused them to stop communicating for nearly the duration of 2009 before it picked up again. She says that's when she first realized he wanted more than a work relationship with her, so she cut him off. Unfortunately, her little "harmless" hits off the crack pipe in the form of accepting his admiration, counsel, conversation, etc, had already established the addiction. She just didn't know it until she had to work with him again starting in late 2009. That's when it kicked in hard once again.

She still has some fog, as she just can't believe a man would pursue a woman that long unless what he felt was "true love." She desperately needs to believe this to save a little face, but she's very quickly learning just how sordid infidelity, ANY infidelity, even when the waywards think true feelings and emotions are involved,really is.

My investigation turned to the OM's history and recent findings are crushing to my wife. It looks like he's done this before: a workplace affair that resulted in the OW getting a divorce and moving in with him. After a while, his now live-in girlfriend cheated on him and left him for yet another manager within their company. I guess that's why he was so effective even though I was watching, he was applying his "lessons learned" from his previous experience.

You see, I met this guy four years ago and had him pegged from the start. I gave her a general warning about "certain guys" she worked with. In 2010, I found a lot of her work pictures that showed he was always "hovering" around my wife. At this point, I drilled her on their relationship and issued a specific warning about him. Of course, you know the drill, she was already deeply emotionally involved with the man by then, so she pounded me with all the WW garbage: colleagues, just friends, hardly ever work with him, etc.

She still seems to be in shock that she fell for this guy's act, especially after I warned her about him. A few weeks ago we were talking and she finally broke down and just wailed. I was startled at the depth of sorrow and shame she expressed, but I'm glad she did it. Though she's apologized repeatedly, that breakdown was the first time I truly felt that she was remorseful. I needed that from her.

What is mind-boggling to me is this: I asked her, "What do you think this would've done to your children? To your relationship with your family and my family? To me? What do you think would've been the impact to your career?" The answer: I didn't think about those things at all. I was just so wrapped up in the emotions when I was with him or talking to him, that's all I thought about.

Dumb. Really dumb.

I think we're doing very well now, but we're continuing with counseling because some other issues have come up that need to be addressed. CV, I'm kind of using your thread about sexual abuse as a reference source. To be honest, that's the main reason I came back to this forum. I want to kind of figure out how others are dealing with that kind of horror and shame within their relationships. Boy, it changes your entire history when something like this comes to light and you start to come to an understanding of how it has affected every single relationship you've had in your life.

Bro, feel free to ask any questions you have. I will be painfully honest. If you ever want to talk mano-y-mano off list, let the moderator know, they have my email address.

CV

I read through your entire thread and found that the subject of your thread was really never addressed in depth.

I agree that past sexual abuse has nothing to do with the choice to have an affair. I don't agree that bringing it up at this late stage is counterproductive to rebuilding my relationship with my wife. In fact, in my case, I'm certain the opposite will hold true. In addition, I think a dismissive attitude such as, "don't worry about your past, just change your adult behavior" is an attitude born in ignorance of just how deeply childhood sexual abuse colors every human relationship the abused will ever have, left unaddressed.

I guess what I was searching for in your thread was behavior or character traits you noticed in your wife that you both now attribute to her abuse. In addition, does your wife still have any contact or relationship of any sort with her abuser?

OWH,

We did deal with the abuse issue. It was 2 hard years and on year with some difficult spots as we worked through it. Is it important? Yep. Why? Because her poor reaction to it is what lead to patterns that she picked up and put into use with the A. Why some cheat and some don't after sexual abuse I'll probably never know, but the fact is, it is a factor to her having poor boundaries and making poor decisions.

One thing that is significant about the abuse is that it really affects heart issues. What I mean is how they fundamentally see the world around them and think about things.

Behavior traits in our marriage before the A's that were magnified during the A:

-Constant unhappiness in the workplace (until that special someone came along).
-failure to engage in deep serious conversation (she constantly felt like a kid and in some ways acted like one)
-Conflict avoidance: Would not argue with me
-gun shy: Skittish when I got angry, visibly afraid
-Secretive about not just personal things, but feelings as well
-lying: the big one-- To herself, me, everyone around her

Which abuser? Her 1st uncle sexually abused her from ages 4-9 (touching, watching, intercourse, inserting things
abuser #2 (uncle as well) sexually abused her through touch and voyeurism.
abuser #3 was her father who was a drunk who physically and verbally abused her until about 6 months before I came in the picture.

Abuser #1 is dead
Abuser #2 left his wife, but until that happened whenever he was at family functions I never let him get close to my daughter or wife. Even before I found out about him 2 years ago. He reeked of being a creeper
Abuser #3 we have had minimal contact with in the last 3 years. Dealing with her dad was rough. If you want to know more about how we handle her parents, let me know. It's another couple of posts.

CV

OWH,

The reason you won't see a lot of delving into such things here, is that delving into such things isn't something Dr. Harley has found very constructive in rebuilding marriages in his clinical practice. In fact, more often than not it's downright destructive.

One of the reasons for this is that delving into these issues usually only serves to bring emotions associated with past events into the present.

This very same reasoning is why it is recommended that after the BS has all of the details of the A, that it is never spoken of again.

Now, understand, the argument is not that past life events don't have an effect on present behaviors, but that changing those behaviors is more effective than constantly delving into those issues; past issues which can never be "resolved."

Additionally, I would argue that one also has to identify the thoughts or beliefs underlying the behavior, and let go of those. MB provides the system with which these beliefs can be changed.

An example of how to recognize and address these types of things;

http://artofmanliness.com/2010/03/02/building-your-resiliency-part-iv-iceberg-ahead/

". . . how they fundamentally see the world around them and think about things."

This is my first profound realization.

"-failure to engage in deep serious conversation" Yep.
"-Conflict avoidance: Would not argue with me." I definitely would avoid as much conflict as I could with my wife. On the other hand, I was a pit bull to everyone else. Once the affair came to light, I abandoned my reticence with her. I latched onto my wife to get to the bottom of everything and was relentless in tearing apart her stories. She'd never seen this in me and told the first counselor that she'd never seen me so intense and that I frightened her.
"-Secretive about not just personal things, but feelings as well" This is also a recognized symptom.

I'm pretty early into this process and haven't developed a game plan on how I'm going to handle contact with my abusers. For now, I'm avoiding all contact.

I'm dealing with this stuff in IC right now. If I decide to seek out additional info from someone who's been there, I'll contact the moderator to get your e-mail and commence with personal contact, if that option is still open.

Thanks, CV. I'll pop over to your thread to check on your boy.

HHH,

Thank you for your post.

I've been reading quite a bit about Dr. Harley's view on this type thing. I guess I don't necessarily disagree with him, but I believe his position is taken a little out of context by some posters on this board and their interpretation of Dr. Harley's advice can easily be misconstrued. I'm sure a big part of that has to do with the nature of the abbreviated written communication style inherent in these boards.

". . . serves to bring emotions associated with past events into the present." Agree, and believe it is imperative that I bring these suppressed emotions to the surface and deal with them as an adult, so that the emotional responses developed and cast as a child, that have been subconsciously driving my behavior, can be understood and corrected.

". . . constantly delving into those issues; past issues which can never be 'resolved.'" There's no intention to make this exploration a constant, and you are correct that past issues can't be fixed, or "resolved." It was important that I address the abuse because I didn't understand what it did to me and how it affected my interactions with my wife. The apparent MB approach of saying, "You're emotionally withdrawn. You're an adult. Stop it!" or "You shy away from affection, touch, and intimacy. You're an adult. Stop it!" is not sufficient to correct the deep-seated behavior. Now that I understand why I exhibit these behaviors, and how the behavior was formed, as an adult I now have the information I need to correct the behavior.

I correlate it to the MB "No Contact" policy: As an adult, I can say that I'll never "contact" those relationship-choking behaviors again, but until I define the weaknesses that allowed them in, and establish "Extaordinary Precautions" designed to protect my relationship, the risk that I'll fall back into the same psychological and physiological responses is high. The knowledge of how the sexual abuse affected me reveals my weaknesses and allows me to establish "Extraordinary Precautions" to protect me from undesired "contact" by those factors that drive the behavior. In essence, by moving my emotional responses from subconscious to conscious thought, I can exercise my adulthood and control the behavior.

In addition, now that my wife knows about the abuse, a very important door to openness and honesty has been opened. She cried for days after I revealed the abuse in counseling. She was terribly hurt that I never said anything about it in the 25 years I've known her. I, on the other hand, was amazed that she couldn't understand why I never intended to tell anyone for the rest of my life.

Acknowledging the abuse and accepting help for it was huge. This will change me just as much as the abuse changed me as a child. In my case, this alone will do more to fix my marriage than anything else. I'll not dwell on the abuse or use it as an excuse for my past, present, or future behavior. I'll make my changes and move on to what is clearly going to be a better, happier life.

Really, the only thing outstanding is the decision on establishing boundaries with my abusers.

OWH, I wasn't sure whether to post this observation on your thread or on CV's, as it appears you are both dealing with similar issues relating to the past. I read your update last night and kinda rolled some thoughts over in my head. I'm applying this mostly from the standpoint of a former wayward, so don't know how applicable it is to all, and it's probably more of just me thinking out loud, but here goes:

I tend to agree that constant re-analyzing of the past (as in childhood) is not useful to approaching the future; however, that said, it often gives the individual insight as to why they approach situations this way or that way. Whatever happened in the past doesn't justify an A - I'm certainly not saying that.

What got me thinking was I have a close friend who was sexually abused by her father throughout childhood and until she moved out to go to college. She and I have talked over the years quite a bit about things (interestingly enough, she was a psych major in college, and it seemed to only increase her insight into certain issues). Not too long ago she and I were discussing the concept of "locus of control." She saw herself as having a very externally-focused locus of control.

Locus of control refers to the extent to which people believe that they have control over the events that affect them. Someone who has a high degree of internal locus of control believes that they have control over events (as well as their reactions to them), based on their behaviors and actions. Someone who has a high degree of external locus of control believes that they don't have a lot of control over their lives, that things happen to them because of fate, destiny, or powerful "others" in life (could be God, could be another person). They think that their own behavior doesn't matter very much and rewards/punishments in life are beyond their control.

As a sidebar, it relates in many ways to the concept of "learned helplessness," where a person begins to feel they have no control over their situation, they begin to act in a "helpless" manner. They often overlook actions they could take that would lead to relief or change.

None of this excuses infidelity. The value in understanding it is for the individual to recognize that these tendencies exist within themselves and to enact strategies to change their thinking and worldview (cognitive behavioral therapy, or CBI, could be indicated). When the individual who is wayward recognizes that these thought patterns exist within themselves, it is one of the many areas that they need to address.

MB shares many similarities in application to a CBI program, in that it takes internal dialogue and practice to implement MB, a behavioral change, just as it takes internal dialogue and practice to implement changes in our destructive thought patterns (CBI).

Anyway, just thought I'd throw it out there. I personally don't have experience with any sort of abuse in childhood, but I've sat through enough therapy sessions to look into my childhood to see that I have "daddy issues." Big whoop, it didn't make me become a wh*re, that was my choice. But I think am important piece of change is that we recognize where our thought patterns are faulty - particularly with waywards - and we take steps to correct them.

Enough armchair psychology from me. It sounds like you are making some very positive progress, OWH, and I'm very happy for you, your W, and your on-the-road-to-recovery M!

I think it was in LoveBusters.. Dr H said that he rarely delves into this and revisiting the past is often useless (simply rehashing) *unless it is for the purpose of moving forward*. That it isn't something to be the core or focus of recovery. I just finished a history of counselling movements in the US course (crazy I know), and one of the main problems in counseling (specially during the 60's and 70's) was using the model of solely focusing on the past.

The method was to deal with the past through talking ad nauseam about it and never move forward and it was an epic fail (Thank you freud with all your talk of id, Ego and super-ego).

The danger of this type of conversation is that it CAN tend to halt progress of here and now. What Harley does talk about is one very important aspect in dealing with the past (and that is what SAA and HNHN is about really, dealing with the recent past), is the idea that we cannot change the past. What we presently do with this knowledge is more important than how you felt when you were 11.

In other words, it all needs to be done in the context of how we presently live and view life...

CV

You are always welcome to contact me. Even if you just need a friend to talk to.

CV

WG, thank you for joining in.

�. . . for the individual to recognize that these tendencies exist within themselves and to enact strategies to change their thinking and worldview . . .� This is the gist of what I�m doing. Discovering how the abuse affected me, identifying my harmful tendencies and changing them.

My biggest problem is deep emotional withdrawal. It�s so entrenched, I don�t even know when I�m doing it. It�s a place where I�m very comfortable. In addition, my principle abuser used special status, privilege, affection, a sense of shared intimacy, and an aura of special love and care to lure me into sexual contact. This made me averse to physical touch, affection, and intimacy in general, and basically destroyed any trust in humanity. I think you can see why I believe that dealing with/exposing my past is pretty critical in rebuilding my marriage properly, as these behaviors really took their toll. All of this seems like it should�ve been apparent years ago, but I never acknowledged or really faced what happened until just a few weeks back.

CV,

�. . . unless it is for the purpose of moving forward.� This is what I�m doing. I just told my wife last night that, even though I�m very early in the process, this is my nut to crack and I don�t want to continue to talk about it � and I don�t mean not talk about it for the same reason I haven�t talked about it for the last 40+ years, but because I�m putting it to bed. Done with it.

I think just knowing you have a saboteur is 90% of the battle in flushing him out.

CV,

One of the largest failures in western psychology/psychiatry/psychoanalysis/counseling is that people began to forget that the ultimate goal is that therapy should end.

As Dr. Harley states, delving into the past is a good way to keep a therapist employed, but it's horrible to their clients.

OWH,

I wouldn't get hung up on the idea of "repressed feelings." Traumatic events being repressed is a pop psychology myth... one of the worst to be perpetuated.

Again, it's more constructive to look at the beliefs and actions. One view I've seen is to think of these things as "scripts" that we follow based on past events and experiences. Once you identify the script, you right a new and appropriate one.

Again, MB provides that script; because MB is a behavior-based program!

I tend to be highly skeptical, but the more I read and research, the more solid MB becomes.

HHH,

Once again, thank you for your opinion.

NP brother.

Dang, too late!

Realized after I navigated away that "Thank you for your opinion" sounds pretty curt. Sorry. Didn't really have time to respond, but wanted to acknowledge your post.

"Repressed feelings" is not what's really going on. Gotta go. Will explain later . . .