And remember Fred being a man means we understand that everyone around us is inferior, and we are confidant enough in that fact that we can allow them to have a few victorys at our expense once in awhile..Lol..

I agree with you Fred, and we must be constantly aware that we find our greatest strength in our weakness also.

Humility.

I'd rather be wrong and happy, than right and miserable.

I suppose enough time has passed to properly digest...


Alrighty, next up!

How to Firmly Say No Without Coming Off Like a Jerk


Ack.

This is so me...

*edit*

I mean the "nice guy" thing, BTW.

Well, gentleman. This thread can't be all about me, or it really fails in purpose.

I suppose, for me, discussion, debate, input is important. I strive to be wrong, because in every incorrect observation and conclusion is an opportunity to learn and grow. However, I'm a PITA because I have a high standard for being proven wrong.

And then? And then I don't think about it, things roll around in the 'ol noggin for a while, and then a random connection is made, and the next stage of development is began.

So... synapse fired, connection was made;


Don't want to pick on you, KT. The statement just kind of rolled around in the noggin. I've often felt the same way about Staind (particularly after "Break the Cycle").

Made me think of this;

Awesome video HHH, I remember when My fathers mother passed away. My Mom and Dad had allready divorced and were uncomfortable around each other, and I allready had been married once and seperated and back together at this time. It was a strange time for me as well as for my marriage, but I had allready been a better husband and father far as I could see, than my Dad had been.

At the graveside, my role was showed to me that I had not realised I had carried most my life. This was before I had heard of dysfunctioal families and how it effects children. My Father and Mother rushed to me as the casket was lowered to the ground in tears and embraced me, one on each shoulder, crying uncontrollably, as I stood there silent and comforted them. I saved my tears till later when I was alone. I simply talked to Grams spirit, and swore I would make her proud.

I allways knew my Dad had bottled up emotions, and also how sensitive he was, as he did the best he could to live as what he thought was the way a Man was supposed to. At least to some degree there was emotional neglect present in his upbringing, but again "hurt people hurt people", so much of that could have been handed down in the rural traditions of people who came through the depression, and learned how to be tough and independant.

Dad was never satisfied with how much I worked, what I did, and there was allways something more on the list. All I wanted was a pat on the back once in a while, but mostly it was "grow up don't be a pansy", and he never showed he was proud of me, so I felt less than OK, and inferior. It took into my teens to separate this feeling from reality and see it was just an extension of his own feelings for himself. He was driven and couldn't accept himself, so it bled off into his family and them also. Very common but still prevalent and damaging just the same.

Thank God for the men who are determined to break that cycle, and let children be children and express emotions be they male or female. Just spending time with them and believing they are feeling something and reasoning it out at thier level. How else could we come to grips with irrational fears and dismiss them as such, unless someone takes the time to listen, and explain, and just be there when they are afraid.

This to me has been what I have considered what a man should be, not just some pair of hanging gonads grunting and insisting everything be thier way, even if thier way made more sense, at least we should all hear why and not be ashamed to ask.

Great Thread HHH, maybe it could be changed to "The Mysterys of being a Man"..Like,"The Art of Manliness",(Which I read now BTW, I cried,(oops) when I listened to MLKs "I have a dream" speech again, gets me every time)

Since most of the audience here are men allready humble enough to look for help in thier marraige, maybe they don't think they still need to be challanged in those places we define our manhood. Those things that and actions/beliefs of what makes us manly.

IDK, but thems womenfolk better keep outta here and stop cleaning up those mental messes we end up in as men, as we intellectually beat the crap outta each other as we shatter assumptions and poor thinking.

We are as "Iron sharpening Iron" when we come together to reason.

Reminds me of something I asked a friend once. "Would you rather know what to expect and be prepared or go through life being gullable and trusting?" He laughed and said "Gullable of course!" It took some time to process that one but I finally got it,(I think ). For me it was about not worrying and spending time in the moment. You can almost worry issues into existance.

I was reading an article on Georges St. Pierre from UFC - a man who is considered the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world.

He stated that he is terrified every time he fights - and that it is that fear that makes him the best fighter he can be. Yet, the first time he fought Matt Hughes, who is one of the greatest champions of that weight class, that same fear paralyzed him.

Later on, he fought Hughes again. Then he fought another up-and-comer named Matt Serra. In that fight, he was overconfident - was NOT afraid - and got his backside handed to him.

It takes a certain type of humility to admit that you have fear, and the greatest type of courage to take that fear and let it shape your improvements.

The same can be said for pain, or confidence, or any other virtue, vice, or emotion.

Anything can either improve or destroy you, it is how you handle it that decides the outcome.

Yes, I believe many things can be self-fulfilling. But, in an ideal world, your outlook should largely depend on whether or not you can do anything about your problem and how you deal with it from there. The familiar Serenity Prayer, if you will.

Up late too NW? Yeah thats a prayer for everyone I agree.

About 12:30 here, thought I'd catch up on what's going on. I nearly nodded off at 6:00 this evening, but now am wide awake. Figures.

Actually "getting" the meaning of that prayer took a while for me. Shoot, I'm still not sure I follow it all the time, but some is better than none, I guess.

I was reading the link about resilience<sp> that was in the beginning of this thread on that website. Good stuff, along with the articles connected, like "hardihood"

Feel like we should be wearing viking helmets as we celibrate these qualities in men.

It was a good time in my life when I realized that boundaries, discipline, and taking the bullit for someone was part of a greater love and protection than many understand.

Ah NW was gonna expound but its late here and I have run out of wind. Tommorow maybe.

Hey can we tell stories on this thread? I got a few "manly" ones that are really funny.

The elusive part is, "The wisdom to know the difference". I guess it is normal to try and change something then only when you can't do you experience the pain that brings wisdom. I wish I knew ahead of time but sometimes, (pray not to often), the only way is to try and fail.

Liked the part in that article about resilience, used to have a lot more than I have now. It is good to be educated and reminded that the come-back is what really counts.

The answer I got for that prayer, fellas, is DD13, who shares her name with the prayer.

Smoke Signals and Forgiving Fathers

I checked out the link, pretty true about forgivness also.

I like the whole premise thats presented also, about rites of passage in a boys life, and also realize the fathers connection to his daughter also, and a Mother to both sons and daughters.

Perhaps that is why I like this site, because of how preciuos and valuable the family unit is.

What does it possibly mean that I feel more and more "complete" with my father.

He isn't that great. But he's in my life... never divorced my mom. He has a million awful behaviors. The way he acts around us at family functions etc.... the way he treats my mom.... how uncomfortable he makes my wife with his unintentional rudeness... none of our wives would put up with that.

On the other hand, his dad was alcoholic, abusive and disappeared from my Dad's life before my Dad was 30. So my Dad is a zillion times better than his. I am a zillion times improved from my Dad.

I believe that I accept "the wisdom to know the difference..." and accept him for who he is, and know that I can try to change him, but don't put too much power in that. Overall, I feel "complete" with him.

I feel pretty okay with that. I'll keep trying in little ways to crack through and work on getting to know him, getting him to be a better man, gettting him to know me... but I am not waiting for some life altering revelation or breakthrough. He has no power over me even though he is present in my concious and will be (I suspect its normal) forever.

I think that goes along with everything else in life, stretch.

The things we see, we can either accept and duplicate, or reject and avoid.

I failed in that.

My dad is a big, fluffy doormat. I ended up the same, and it didn't work out.

Nice intro Stetch into something I wanted to ask on here, or start a discussion around.

I can draw the same line for four generations to me, incremental improvements along the way. Bad marriages too. Something I have been wrestling with for the past six months...so I will just throw it out there.

Sitting here with my three year old watching cartoons. How do I keep this from happening to him? How do I keep him from cheating or being cheated on? What can I do to give him the best chance of never having to experience any of this?

That would make this all worth it - if I could stop it from happening to him!

Thoughts?

If you, at least, recognize what you don't want him to do, then that's a start, wouldn't you say?

Start by being a great example, you and your wife, so he'll have a good model for his own behavior/relationship(s).

I'm the fifth generation that didn't know his father growing up by either death or "waywardocity". Not a chance in hell that is getting passed onto my son. That train stops now

How about being honest about the fact that infidelity has occured with his parents, and what - EXACTLY - it has put both of them through, and what it could have potentially put ALL of you through.

I love this, every one of you, concerned for your children and thier future, and making plans to make it better.

To me its age appropiate honesty and doing everything you know is right and being happy to do it in front of and with your children. They need our time, and excuses mean little if they think your being selfish.

I have been challanged to end the cycle in my family also, and to be honest, it has been on my mind since I was a kid. I was never gonna let my kid grow up as lonely and scared as I did, especially when I found out most of my problems I felt as a child were an illusion. Emotional habits of withdrawl and fear can really break your spirit, and rebeliousness sometimes is the only coping mechanism we have when we don't understand.

Children emotionally understand way more than we give them credit for, and those coping tools we give them are so important. So how can we help them live and develop differently than we have? How can people like us who didn't have a "normal" childhood relate to a child that we want to experiance life differently than we did? That has been a very important question to me for all my life, and I still think about it daily, because I believe my attitude and approach with them must be honest, transparent, and humble as possible. The most important for me is to explain to them that there is no end to the questions for any of us, and that is totally normal, so questioning is to be welcomed. Yes even questioning you, or God, or any authority over them, until they get an answer.

One of the most challanging is saying you don't know why. Why did Mommy drink and destroy her life like she did? Didn't she love us or want to be around us anymore? Will it happen to me? There is where they grow up early, and have to handle issues way before thier time. I have to let them know they are not thier Mom, and are responsible for themselves, and no excuses. This is an amazing freeing realization, but at a young age it is terrifying also, as now they will have even more fears. As many ways I could skirt around the issue that it was fear that drove there Mom into running to drink, and that it was learned behavior since childhood from crappy parents,(both plus family),there is allways the part of them that saw the Mom that loved them at one time and would take on a bear to protect them. So they question of why and the answer only God knows will have to remain as they process this separation emotionally from someone that once loved them and protected them and they found all their comfort in. But I am open to discuss it with them, and reason things out, whenever nessesary.

But the real answer I beleive, is that we realize no matter what emotional habits we have inherited from our upbringing, we realize our own frialty as humans, and determine to live differently than our parents. We make changes rather than live in the debilating shame from where we came, we keep the details to ourselves of what we might have went through private unless asked, and then we share it openly and honestly as age appropiatness and time and thier maturity progresses. The world and life and people are full of mistakes and pain, out job as parents is to help our children to avoid as much as possible, to teach, obout the pitfalls, and to encourage them that they are the masters of thier destiny. They are seperate beings than us, and if you beleive that God lives in our conscience, and in truth and wisdom, they are accountable to that before anything else and what we do is prepare them to deal with life by listening and reasoning within themselves also.


My late W used to get freaked out whenever my children doubt God or ask questions when they hit puberty. She wanted them safe I know, but she based her faith on never making a mistake and being subject to weaknesses that were out of her control. She wanted them to just do what she said and because she had a much different life and her Mother and family were very poor in comparison to us, she expected them to automatically just know that she was right and they were wrong. She would bring up her parents and start to tell them how thier life was so much better than hers, offended because they asked questions about normal things. Example "Why is there such a click in the Christian youth group and why does the Pastor have favorites?" " Why when I did everything I was supposed to did the inner city kids get the prize gift?". "Why am I treated like an outcast because I don't have as much money or clothes that they have?" These are normal questions for a teenage girl who was taught to be openminded and not judgemental about people, and she was hurt, and a ten year old boy who wanted to fit in and be recognized,(and was naturally competitive too with all the insecurities that come with it).

I explained to my daughter that is was wrong and based on some idea that sprang from fear that people wanted to believe they were better than others, because they were not, and her reward was to know that and not live like them. As lonely as that might be, the worst thing was to let it make you angry and bitter, because that was what probably formed thier alliance, the rejection.

My ten year old I told him that they were trying to draw in the inner city kid and encourage him, and of course that went over like a lead balloon, because he worked so hard for that prize, and I taught him to be fair. But he learned about co-hersion, and he understood the premise, and he also knew where the boy came from was a tough place for kids.

But here is the kicker with late W, Why be so upset that our children asked normal questions and were not afraid to? If God is real, is he afraid of our questions? As a matter of fact he welcomes them and the challanges of those that would seek wisdom. NOT perfection. Late W wanted our children to have different lives than she had, and now that they did and are not afraid, she didn't recognize that and rejoice in it? It was all about her and all she sacrificed anyway at that point and she had beacome very unhappy for a lot of reasons. Not gona expound on that.

I thought that God could handle the questioning and it would not change the truth if he was real, and real was what I would teach them anyways. So ask away..

Reminded of two songs, "Teach your children" by Crosby, stills, nash, and young and "the Living years" by Mike and the mechanics.

Giving your Kids the best life possible and not letting them in on the emotional pain you lived with is so important, but yet they will have to know if your hurt and why also, because of how close they are to you. As time goes on and they reach the age of accountibility I worry less, but I still am around to help them when they need it, if I can.

We allways will think of our Children and God help us if we don't.


HHH, I read the article from the art of manliness about being physical that showed up in the email today. Its so right on and I think it is what is missing from my life. To much thinking not balanced with activity has not been good for me ever. Im gonna grab ahold of that wisdom. Thanks.