You know, the interesting thing is that I don't really see that my H really is overtly doing anything to "destroy" me emotionally. He's simply removed himself from a M where his wife was unfaithful. He's not saying hurtful things. Probably 90% of the time he ignores my attempts at olive branches. It's probably kinder for him to ignore me; at least he is not saying anything negative or cruel, or saying something that gives me false hope. I allow him to have sex with me. He's not forcing me to do anything I don't want to do. I could put a stop to it. I choose not to. The 10% of the time he responds positively to me...well, I have to keep trying, right?

I don't believe he's out to emotionally destroy me. I think he's just trying to protect himself from someone who he sees as a dangerous person: me.

I do far more to emotionally destroy myself than my H does.

neverknewyou, I appreciate your input on my thread. Would you care to share your story with us on the boards? I know you say it depresses you to write about your W, I guess I am curious if you have survived infidelity in your M? Were you a BH? Do you have any experiences you could relate about your own recovery that could help others here? I apologize if I am being too nosy!

I could choose to forgive the OM for his role in all of this, and maybe it makes me less of a person because I choose not to. But I am also choosing not to dwell on him. That's what Mrs_V was referring to with NC - you see, contact can just be one-sided. If I was sitting around, trying to see OM as a "good" person, do you see how that could be detrimental to my personal and marital recovery? OM was not a good person. He did not respect me.

And during my A, I was not a good person either. I had no respect for myself, or my H, or my wedding vows, or the family we had together.

As to self-forgiveness? I think, as GO advised, I'm taking it off my "to-do" list. If my DH forgives me someday, then I hope he will be able to help me forgive myself. If not, then the closest I will ever be able to come is acceptance. Accepting the things I cannot change.

Accepting that I am not the woman I was 2 years ago, but at the same time accepting that I cannot undo the things I did then.

And I realize that nothing I've been doing is working. I've tried a bazillion things, but I can't draw my H back to the M. Kind of to a point where no one really has any new suggestions for things I can do, other than personal recovery. If marital recovery is to happen, the ball's in H's court now.

Thanks, SMM...I'd give my right eye (H would know what I meant with that one!) to have my H's forgiveness and to have him back by my side. I hate to hear your sitch has taken a downward turn - post an update and let us know what's going on, OK? I'll be thinking and praying for you & yours as well. (((SMM)))

Thank you, GO...I hope it helps some of the new WS's who come here. I especially think of how many I've seen in just my short time here that come and then disappear, and I wonder what happens to them...do they ever wake up and realize what they are doing? I hope so...but I'm kind of afraid that they probably never do.

Do waywards have serious depression issues? What are the side effects of the defog on the wayward if they realize how bad they messed up?

I see three things happening for the wayward

1) They stay in waywardness and continue the denial, lies, deceipt. Doesn't this always result in a life that is very unfulfilling.

Really the only healthy option for the wayward is #2, hit rock bottom, and then figure out how to better oneself.

Am I wrong on my assumptions? Any thing I am overlooking here?

As I read your threads I feel the pain my WH will feel once and if he comes out of the fog. I almost want to understand you in hopes that when he does return I can be the empathetic and forgiving spouse who understands what he is going through.

�

Just jumping onto this thread, so I have a lot of catching up to do... �but my guess is that some WS really have to hit rock bottom before they "wake up" and truly realize what they are doing. � My A lasted over 2 f'n years!!! �What the heck is wrong with me?!?!?!? �I had to have 2 d-days?!? �Like 1 isn't enough??? �

Depression? �Seriously, I must hate myself to my core to do this to my devoted H and children. �I knew what I was doing was dead wrong. �I tried to end my A countless times. �I would even make up lies and excuses to my OM just to break it off gently.. � WHAT WAS I THINKING???! �

It was a vicious cycle... guilt/remorse, anger, escape... repeat

every time I saw the OM, I felt guilt and remorse afterwards... �that should have been enough for me. �But no, I would rationalize and justify, in my lame head, a reason that I need to see the OM... then I cycle through anger.. either at my BH, in projection, or at myself.... which would drive me back to "escape mode"... OM � �

All I know is that depression was a huge factor for me, but it can't be my excuse. �I'm done with my lame excuses.

IMHO, �WS have to hit rock bottom before they change. �Maybe that's why they disappear.. they haven't hit rock bottom. �They're depressed and ashamed.. yet they're making excuses and they can't climb out of the pathetic sitch they've created.�

Heart-felt thanks to you (GO and WPG) for giving me a much needed perspective. �I have a long way to go, but you've helped in huge ways! �

No. There is some small fraction of waywards who will marry, be in love, and have a mutually-fulfilling relationship for the rest of their lives. This is a very small fraction, but my mother was among that group. However, if they are honest, most of them will say that even though they love the spouse they had an affair with, and wouldn't trade them, if they could go back in time they would not have had the affair. They would have either done things right (get a divorce and THEN begun a relationship), or else would have repaired their marriage rather than seeking an affair. The cost in relationships -- particularly with children and other loved ones -- is too high.

Not all hit rock bottom, and I daresay doing so is not "the only healthy option". It's possible for one to go wayward while still having a good relationship with their spouse. In those cases, the wayward discovers he/she is in love with two people. While this is heart-wrenching for both spouses, a couple can simply redouble their efforts to have a better relationship and protect their marriage from that time forward.

Remember that Dr. Harley's advice differs for men vs. women. He's seen many recovered marriage where an unfaithful wife shows little remorse for her affair prior to recovery. He's seen very, very few recovered marriages where an unfaithful husband doesn't show remorse.

If a husband has been unfaithful, expect him to come back with his hat in his hand, penitent and full of expressions of regret before accepting him back. If a wife has been unfaithful, a man should be more occupied with the task of winning his wife back from the other man rather than demanding remorse before recovering.

I've read that, and I see it in many of the posters here. Again, my thoughts are colored by my own experience as well as the things I've noticed on the thread - I've seen several WW's come here since I joined the forums who are blatantly unremorseful and they tend not to hang around very long...if their BH's post, you see that even if they succeed in killing the A, their recovery efforts don't seem to be successful. I am thinking of Andy and TimB specifically over in SAA right now, and of course strugglingaz and InnerStrength that were here recently. And there are other BH's who are coming back here years later.

As a remorseful FWW, I cannot imagine NOT feeling remorse and regret over what I did, regardless of whether my M was recovered or not. Perhaps that eventually comes in time for these unremorseful FWW's? If a WW is "won back" to the M, are there cases where she never feels remorse over what she did? Would a BH be able to accept that lack of remorse?

This is what I want to quote.

I've made foolish mistakes, and I do want to help others avoid them. I feel that I am more committed than ever to my BH. I'm blessed that he's still around.

Double-standards suck, but here at MarriageBuilders we deal with the reality of the way things are. Not the way we wish things were.

Well that's my W, Grace. And she's still deep in the fog and denial after 2 d-days and counting. For her right now it's D or bust. I've gravitated to WPG's thread bc she is truly remarkable. She has given me a lot of insight into the mind of someone who was wayward as well as someone who has honestly seen the light. I also read her thread with my fingers crossed that maybe one day my WW can make that same transformation WPG has made.�

Well I'm on the receiving end of anger by my WW regularly so I get that point.�

You are inspiring Grace bc you're owning it. You couldn't ask for more.�

Well that must be my W.�

I'm no expert Grace but your candor and honesty will serve you very well in your recovery. I wish my W could do the same. You are well on the road to better times.�

and i couldnt imagine how that would go over with someone who professes to have a semblance of faith or an iota of moral fiber. my WW is a catechist who just this past year taught S9's 4th grade class the Ten Commandments LOL, all the while denying her A. she's taught a class for the past few years running. and she just became a Eucharistic minister to boot. sacrilege anyone? does any of this even matter? seems like a farce. they'll have to answer to God and their consciences in time. and am i an idiot for hanging around as long as i have, 5 children not withstanding?

Men and women are DIFFERENT. Not better or worse, not superior or inferior... DIFFERENT.

And that difference is a GOOD thing.

Ok, feel like an idiot here, but can someone explain how to get the quote boxes in a post? I am having the worst time with it.

Anyway, savemymarr, I'm so sorry for what your going through with your W.. I would like to read your story if it's posted.. and if I can help in any way I will.

I am fairly new to this site (so I'm not a "vet"). But I had a very involved A, and my "fog" was extremely thick.

I've made foolish mistakes, and I do want to help others avoid them. I feel that I am more committed than ever to my BH. I'm blessed that he's still around.

Best of luck to you!! Also, I agree.. WPG is very helpful! Glad that she is able to help you.

It doesn't matter if someone professes to be religious. We're all wired for affairs, if the conditions are met. If you've read GO's story, his A was with a woman he sang with in the church choir. I was going to church, sending my kids to Sunday School, teaching childrens' church, all while committing the sin of adultery.

I'm sorry your WW is still stuck in her fog, SMM. I know I had plenty of moments of lashing out at my DH in anger - AO's were a big LB of mine pre-A - but I also fell into the anger trap post-A. Much of that anger was due to frustration with myself. That doesn't justify it - that illustrates my selfishness and immaturity.

I got better at managing my outbursts and other LB's - it takes thought and effort. I hope your WW gets there one day.

You know, I would probably offend some of my more liberated friends, but ITA.

Little anecdote. In one of the classes I taught we discuss hiring standards for law enforcement/public safety jobs. There's case after case where women have sued a city b/c they could not pass the agility test required in order to be, say, firefighters. One case I talked about in class, a woman sued b/c she could not do one of the tasks required, which was carry a 150-pound dummy in an over-the-shoulder hold down a ladder, and she was denied employment as a firefighter. While I am fond of telling my girls, you can do anything you set your mind to, if someone cannot carry my butt down a ladder from a burning building, I don't care what gender they are, they don't need to be firefighters.

Read some of Emerson Eggerich's books - I think he has a very insightful view of male-female differences in communication and relationships.

I think it was him that cited a study where males and females of varying ages were placed in a room in pairs with their best friends. There were 2 chairs in the room. In each pair, regardless of age, the females would enter the room, and take the chairs and turn them to face each other and would then talk. The males would sit in the chairs shoulder-to-shoulder (i.e., side by side). It relates to some of the EN's as I see it - for example, the value placed on face-to-face coversation and/or shoulder-to-shoulder recreational companionship.

It doesn't matter if someone professes to be religious. We're all wired for affairs, if the conditions are met. If you've read GO's story, his A was with a woman he sang with in the church choir. I was going to church, sending my kids to Sunday School, teaching childrens' church, all while committing the sin of adultery.

I'm sorry your WW is still stuck in her fog, SMM. I know I had plenty of moments of lashing out at my DH in anger - AO's were a big LB of mine pre-A - but I also fell into the anger trap post-A. Much of that anger was due to frustration with myself. That doesn't justify it - that illustrates my selfishness and immaturity. I got better at managing my outbursts and other LB's - it takes thought and effort. I hope your WW gets there one day.



You know, I would probably offend some of my more liberated friends, but ITA.

Little anecdote. In one of the classes I taught we discuss hiring standards for law enforcement/public safety jobs. There's case after case where women have sued a city b/c they could not pass the agility test required in order to be, say, firefighters. One case I talked about in class, a woman sued b/c she could not do one of the tasks required, which was carry a 150-pound dummy in an over-the-shoulder hold down a ladder, and she was denied employment as a firefighter. While I am fond of telling my girls, you can do anything you set your mind to, if someone cannot carry my butt down a ladder from a burning building, I don't care what gender they are, they don't need to be firefighters.

Read some of Emerson Eggerich's books - I think he has a very insightful view of male-female differences in communication and relationships.

I think it was him that cited a study where males and females of varying ages were placed in a room in pairs with their best friends. There were 2 chairs in the room. In each pair, regardless of age, the females would enter the room, and take the chairs and turn them to face each other and would then talk. The males would sit in the chairs shoulder-to-shoulder (i.e., side by side). It relates to some of the EN's as I see it - for example, the value placed on face-to-face coversation and/or shoulder-to-shoulder recreational companionship.

really? i will look for your thread. my W's fog is very thick as well right now. she just filed for D from me. we have 5 children, married for 16 y. she says it's bc of all of her frustration w/ our M that she's done it but don't believe that for one second. is BS. totally fog laden here. how thick was it?