Wulffpack girl,

Good for you asking about the vacation, Hey it's starting to get nice out, what about a day at the beach with the girls.......Have a fun day, bbq, ice cream make it a great day......maybe 1 day won't scare him off .........Just keep trying and try to get next to him on the couch.........little by little he will miss the interaction with you whether he realizes it or not. I said in the above post, If he didn't want to be around he would be gone, he wouldn't be coming over to watch anything with you....I think it's a good sign........My husband used to say that in the beginning, when all the signs would be pointing to him going with the OW, he would say If I wanted to be gone I would be..............
I think they want us to reconnect with them they are just so stubborn that we have to do the work until they can let themselves love us again........
I think it also scared my husband when I used to say I love you and I am willing to let you go to be happy even if that means I will no longer be in your life.....
I think when he actually thought of his life away from me, our home our boys it made him very sad........I think he soon grew to know how much work it would be to start a new relationship with someone he barely knew, her children were younger, many problems to deal with............
we have been together for 27 years, it's hard to imagine not being together and living the life we were living for someone who was only in his life for 3 months......
He fought hard when he woke up from that fog and your husband will too when he finally gets it, just keep his family in tact until he gets there..........

Have you asked him why he still comes around if he is claiming he is finished?
Have you asked him if he wants you to let him go so he can be happy, set the seed in his mind so he can think what that would be like........
Ask him why he isn't gone yet?
Ask him where he sees himself in a year in 5 years.......what does he see for his life.............
Maybe he is just stuck...........I think you probably have proven yourself to be regretful and remorseful...........
He might say he feels nothing for you but why does he still spend time with you, why not move on and find someone else........
There is something there that he is not telling you........Watch his face, watch him watching you........see how he reacts, I can tell with my husband just by watching him................
Look good, smell good, smile and just show him what a great time the two of you can have and your family together and how happy that makes everyone......including him..........
hang in there.
jessi

WPG... I may be off base here, but remember a couple weeks ago when I said I didn't think you H was done yet? I still think that, and after reading some of your interactions with him recently, it just makes me think so more.

It's kind of funny, but I see your H and my W being a lot the same, even though my W was the one to have the A. Once I had busted up the A, it took her a long time to defog and come back to the marriage. I had to slowly, oh so slowly, reel her back in. And that's what I see going on with you and your H. IMHO, he's starting to be open to the idea of you guys being together, even if he's not ready to admit it. Heck, he might not even see it himself.

I would plan stuff with our kids and invite her along. Did the same thing as you with a vacation. Told her the kids and I were going to Disney World and we would love for her to come, but if she didn't want to, that was ok, we'd go have a good time anyway. She did end up going with us, and had a blast.

I would use every opportunity to touch her. Not in overt sexual ways, just a light brush here or there, a squeeze of her shoulder as I was going to bed, etc. We never separated like you have, but it sounds like you have plenty of opportunities to be around him, so give it a try. Just don't over do it.

When I was talking with Steve Harley, he gave me an analogy that really hit home in getting me to understand what my path was. You might have read it on MB before, but basically, Steve said, our marriage was like my W and I standing on opposite sides of a river. And if I wanted us to get back together, I'd have to build a bridge, because we know most waywards don't do any of the work early on. To build that bridge, I'd need to throw a whole bunch of rocks into the river. At first, you're throwing rocks and not seeing any results, but you're building the foundation. Keep throwing rocks and eventually, you'll see some rocks start to peak thru the surface. Not enough rocks to walk across, but you can begin to see your work paying off. With enough rocks, you'll eventually be able to cross that river to your spouse. Might get your feet wet cause that rock bridge is still slightly under the water in some places, but you can get across. That's the essence of plan A. Showing your spouse how you've changed for the better (throwing rocks into the river) and what they're going to be missing.

I understand how frustrating it is. Trust me, I KNOW. But if you really want this man, then keep doing what you're doing, without expectations.

One last thing, I found it easier to do things without expectations if I stopped myself from trying to read every little thing she did and react to that. At the beginning of what became our recovery, every other week or so, I'd spend some time reviewing how I thought the last couple weeks had went on an overall basis. Was the last two weeks better or worse than the previous two weeks? If they were better, I'd try to figure out what I/we had done and then I would do that more. If they had been worse, I'd not do those things again.

Let go of the expectations. I kept thinking, if my W was in a car accident and in a coma, would I take care of her without expecting anything from her?

Kind of how I see your path. Keep doing it as long as you can. Like I said a few weeks ago, I think he's testing your resolve, to see if you'll give up or are not sincere. Don't give him that satisfaction.

H4U

Hopeforus .... beautifully done!

Hi WPG,

I have always thought and "felt" the same. Even in your darkest days, i have not doubted that your H was still out there in the wilderness so to speak but rooting around for a path back to you. was he fence sitting? duh, yes but he allowed his hurt to take over his thoughts. that will pass. I was talking to my sensei yesterday (strange bird who is 7th degree black belt, grew up Iran, trained in Japan, chased out of Iran by the religious zealots and is a die hard true blue American who was telling me a quote in Farsi, LOL), and he told me a saying in his native tongue. sometimes you are on the main road, and the person you are travelling with gets sidetracked off of it into the woods and hills nearby. you have been waiting for your H to find his way back. sometimes people do not or it takes years. you have stayed on the road patiently.

last year when you were engaged in the trickle truth, it led him to move further away from the road. something is re-awakening in him. it has required a good deal of time. maybe he has found his compass. you are a good woman who made some bad choices. we all do. i for one cannot cast any stones too readily at my WW bc i was not the ideal H and father. i am not excusing her choices, but like you, I have learned from it. moreover your remorse is genuine, and i know you are a good person. and please do not say that that is untrue bc it is NOT. i am rooting for you. we all are. i sense a change here. you do too. do not rush it. whatever it is will take root. i am confident for you and repaired2011 (ne broken2009). one day at a time.

@ H4U: sorry for the T/J, but did your W ever go so far as to file for D? do you have a thread somewhere? am looking for inspiration. thank you.

SMM

Hi Save.

I had a thread here back in 2007/2008. Worked with SH for about 7 months. I eventually quit posting and just read other threads as I was in a place where most people thought I should go to plan B and at the time, with the financial and kid situation, I knew plan B wasn't an option, so I decided to plan A as best I could until our youngest was done with HS (about 2 years) and if at the end of that time, my W was still not playing along, then I'd file for D.

I recently went back and read the end of my thread (last post was in June 2008 I believe) and now realize that I probably wasn't being pushed towards plan B as much as I thought, but I was getting enough help just reading others threads I didn't feel the need to post.

A quickie time line...

A began in Mar 2007. I discovered it in Sept 07. Exposed to OMW in Oct 07. W continued contact with OM who had moved 200 miles away in Aug 07. They had plans to wait until both our son and his son were done with HS and then they'd be together. Exposure to OMW put a crimp in A, but didn't end it as OM and OMW lived 1000 miles apart. OM is a hired contractor that moves from job to job every couple years.

On SH's advise, I didn't expose to anyone else at the time. Finally in April 08, I exposed to my kids as I was going to file for D. My youngest son proceeded to rip my W to shreds. That was the wake up call she needed. And that's when NC began (as best I can figure).

Took about 2 months or so for her to get thru the worst part of WD and probably another 5 months to get completely thru WD. It was after those 7 months we began recovery.

W never filed for D, but she saw a lawyer and tried to get me to fill out the discovery stuff. I told her I wasn't filling out anything without a court order and if she filed, I'd counter file on the grounds of adultry and call OM to court so he could tell all about their "friendship". It was a bluff as we live in a no fault state, but she didn't know that. This was while she was hot and heavy in the A not too long after D-Day.

I didn't do everything by the MB book. Most of it, but not all. I think it's the best program around to save a marriage, but things like an NC letter (edited to add.. I did demand NC, told her if I ever heard, found, saw any evidence of contact, I was marching straight to see a lawyer, but I didn't demand an NC letter), sharing her passwords (early on), etc, I didn't demand.

IMHO, especially when there's a WW, sometimes making those kinds of demands can be counter productive. I know I might get shot for saying that, but I truly feel that way. If a WW has checked out of the marriage, demanding certain things can be counter productive. Would a NC letter, sharing passwords, etc made our recovery a lot easier at the beginning? Heck yes. And I fully support Dr Harley when he says those things are essential. I wouldn't have stayed in our marriage if she didn't share passwords, etc eventually, but after I took a long hard look at myself and where our marriage was, I realized I understood completely why W had checked out. And yeah, I was 50% responsible for the condition of our marriage. But if I wanted to save our marriage, I first had to give my W a reason to want to stay. And until she had a reason to want to stay, I didn't feel I could make those demands.

Now when I look back, it was one long Plan A. First 7 months was busting the A and then another 7 months showing her what she'd be missing if we eventually split up.

Sorry this is long. Sorry for the TJ WPG.

H4U

Thank you Pep. That means a lot coming from you. I really admire and appreciate all the advise you give here.

H4U.

H4U, no prob on the t/j. Reading your story, I'm wondering if there was ever a point after your W had defogged and you started R where you wanted to walk? If you did feel that way, was there anything that your W did that was particularly effective?

jessi, H4U, and SMM...I appreciate you all seeing the positives in the way my H is acting...I guess they are just hard for me to see. I used to. But then I kept crushing my biscuit. The roller coaster with him swings so wildly that I can never really read him anymore. He still just sometimes glares at me if I speak to him, even if I'm just saying hello. If I accidentally brush against him, or move too close, he jerks away. Although truthfully, that's not terribly different from our M pre-A. I think the only time I've really gotten to touch him besides SF is one day when we went to the store to get something for the girls, and I reached out and smoothed his eyebrow (lol he has crazy eyebrow hairs). I feel like sometimes he's just being nice to me for the kids' sake, which is good for them and I guess if we D that's the best way for us to be...but if he really wants to go thru with a D I don't think I can just be his "friend."

I've heard a couple of similar analogies to the rocks in the river one. DNM had "chucking buckets of sand into a lake" and HHH has the "throwing handfuls of rice." I've just got this massive, deep, class-III rapids filled river in front of me. I'm tired and I just want H to come and take care of me for a while, to look in my eyes and ask me, "What can I do for you today?" And really, my only answer to that is "Love me."

But I can agree that a lot of that tiredness is due to me continually trying to read, interpret, and respond to every little thing that he does.

Maybe he has wandered off into the wilderness. I'm standing out here on the road, waving my arms like crazy and hollering and he seems determined to stay out there. He pulled me out of the wilderness two years ago. And actually, he pulled me out of the wilderness when we first met, when I was just struggling with my direction in life. He saved me twice. There's not another man out there who would do that for me.

Fridays suck. I hate the "drive-off." I hate the silence. I just hate Fridays. I'm going to go embark on a little retail therapy, y'all.

Hi H4U,

Sorry about the T/J WPG btw. similar sitch bc plan B would be almost impossible to do for me.

Exposure has thus far not had the effect I thought it would. it has hardened my W's position actually. so be it. would expose all over again in the same way. maybe i shouldve been the one to file for D first too.

Not there yet. not even close.

Not sure if W knows that i am going to be filing on grounds of A and will name OM1 and 2 (2 A's here amigo).

Agree with you, H4U. hope i get a chance to use it LOL.

Feel same. I am responsible also for where our M ended up but W took it from there with her A. Completely understand why you did what you did when you did it.


Well Dday was beginning Sept 2010. ?NC then but FR w/ renewed contact March 2011 (6 months?). now am 2 months into aftermath of renewed contact, full exposure and W filing for D. similar timelines in that regard. but then again have been going thru stuff w/ my M for over 2 y. it was the slide towards where i find myself today.

Thanks a million for that, bc it definitely helps H4U. Sorry again WPG. BTW, how are things going now H4U?

No prob, SMM! Wait a sec - your WW renewed contact w/OM - were you able to kill the A w/re-exposure, or is she still actively wayward? I'm guessing she is if she's filed for D...I am not sure I know all the details of your sitch, did you have a thread at all?

H brought the kids home today and we all went to dinner and shopping. Had a little wierd thing that happened and not sure how I should have reacted. H and I had, uhm, well you know and I was upstairs getting ready to go to dinner. I'd told him we'd gotten a coupon mailer and may have coupons for the place we were going to eat. He went to look for the coupon. Now, POSOM owns a karate franchise in one town. As it so happened, there was a coupon ad in the mailer H was looking through that had an ad for a franchise of the same name in our town - this one not owned by POSOM. He leaves it on the top of the pile of coupons where I can't help but see it when I come to get the restaurant coupon. I just threw it away and didn't say anything. H didn't say anything about it and didn't act any different than he's been acting. I'm sure it probably triggered him as it triggered me - not thoughts of POSOM, directly, but thoughts of everything I'd f-ed up and how I'd failed my H and just generally feeling crappy about myself and worried about how it may have triggered him.

Should I have said something? I can't imagine what I could have said. Why would he have just left it out like that? I felt like it was deliberate on his part, and this coming not ten minutes after we'd just had SF (I guess that is a DJ on my part). I know he's still hurting, and if I'd opened the d@mn coupons before he did I would have thrown it away, I'd do anything to help him avoid what triggers him.

I'm afraid that maybe I have been too pushy lately, with asking him if he wants to come on vacation, and then I asked him if he wanted to stay tonight (he'd said he was coming over in the morning to do some stuff at the house).

wulffpack girl,

I think you handled the coupon the right way, if he did it on purpose to hurt you or to watch your reaction he didn't get anything from you the way you handled it.
All he saw was you throwing something out that didn't matter any more.....
Don't worry about being pushy, he is a big boy if he choses not to do what your request that is up to him, there might be a chance he says yes and it will give you another opportunity to Plan A him.........
Wulffpack you did F-up but you aren't anymore, you are trying to make amends, let go of the things you did wrong, and just worry and think about doing what is right now..........the past is over, don't hang on to it anymore......
I think as time goes on and he falls in love with you again, he will stop trying to remind the two of you about what happened in the past as well, he is getting there, he wouldn't be with you at all if he wasn't interested.........he still loves you,
Some day he will wake up and say to himself why am I wasting time holding on to all this when I really want my marriage and my family, he isn't there yet.......
I am keeping my fingers crossed for you...
jessi

thanks, jessi...avoiding triggers completely is really impossible, for either of us. Guess I just don't know how best to handle it, considering that I don't know what our relationship (?) is these days. If I can protect him from a trigger, I'd do it. If I'd gone through the darn coupons first, I would have trashed it so he wouldn't have to see it. Similar sitch, he was over the other night and we were watching a show on TV. The characters were getting married, and my mind was going about a million miles an hour, thinking about our wedding, how much I'd screwed up, how much I still love him and believe in him, and of course I was sitting there wondering what he was thinking.

And I'm afraid to ask, because I'm afraid to hear that maybe he has the same thoughts about me as I do about myself, or worse yet that he doesn't care at all.

And I LB'ed him today and afterwards I felt so awful. He was at the house this morning when the girls and I got back from church. Apparently, the girls' pool, which he just set up, was leaking and I hadn't noticed it this morning. I went to say hello and ask how it was going, he immediately jumps on me with "Why is the pool leaking?" and all these other questions like it was the Spanish Inquisition and it made me feel like I'd done something to it on purpose. I got upset and I pretty much said exactly that, that I didn't mess it up on purpose. I was angry and hurt, and I walked off because I was about to cry. I felt frustrated b/c I keep trying to help with stuff and it seems like everything I do comes out wrong, no matter how simple. The girls and I went to lunch at my parents' house, and I just kept feeling awful for snapping at him. First thing I did was apologize to him when I came back. He seemed OK but I still felt bad about the whole thing.

It was over such a stupid little thing. I've been trying and trying and then I feel like I blew it today by going and reacting like an idiot.

Wulffpack,

You didn't do anything wrong today, he shouldn't have spoken to you like he did.
letting him know when he hurts you is okay, you are a human being who should be treated with respect to, if you think he crossed the line then speaking up for yourself is a good thing.........
dont' borrow trouble with the movie or the coupon, life goes on with the past we have, don't waste time on the things you cannot change.......
focus on good quality time together, make them times he will look back on when he isn't there........make him miss that........
little bump wulffpack, don't let it throw you off the track..............

WPG,

Can I make two suggestions?

1) You have to realize that he is going to have to learn to deal with his own triggers all on his own until he decides to recommit to the relationship.

2) I just finished reading through your whole thread (and his) last week. Do you know that you walk away everytime you cry? or nearly so...

May I suggest that you allow him to see you cry? I know this is hard, and he may or may not respond to it, but you are withholding openness from him by walking away every time you cry.

Just some thoughts as we have been keeping up and praying for you.

CV

Hi WPG.

The problem I see in all of this is that there is pretty much a complete lack of O&H in your relationship with your BH right now. You're walking around on egg shells, afraid to be open with him about how you feel because he may walk away or tell you something you don't want to hear. It's a legitimate fear.

However, in a relationship that has involved infidelity, O&H is the most important thing that needs to be established. You're allowing your fear to keep you from being O&H with your BH, and I'm sure he realizes this. It's going to make it very difficult for him to ever trust you if he knows you still aren't being RO with him.

I know it's scary. But if you want any chance at healing your M, you're going to have to start being O&H with your BH about how you're feeling.

Thanks a million for that, bc it definitely helps H4U. Sorry again WPG. BTW, how are things going now H4U?

Things are going great. I'm sorry I haven't read your thread, but I definitely had some advantages on my side. First was my youngest son. He shreded his mom. Told her he was staying with me if we D'd. That he'd never go see her/talk to her again if he wasn't forced to and if he was forced to go to where ever she lived, he'd never say a word to her.

Second advantage was OM was a player. He'd had 4-5 A's that his W knew about and with them living 1000 miles apart, she's sure there were more she didn't know about. After OM moved from our town, he had a new GF almost immediately. Periodically I would drop little bomb's about her boyfriend cheating on her and she would get mad and run outside so she could call him. I think it didn't take too long for her to figure out he was just using her after I exposed to OMW. She was still pretty fogged out and trying to get together with OM after that, but he just kept blowing her off so by the time I exposed to the kids and DS ripped her, I'm pretty sure the A was about dead anyway.

It's funny, but just this weekend, W and I were enjoying a glass of wine on a patio by this river, great day, great view, just a great day, and I asked her (thinking of WPG's situation) "at what point did you know you wanted to come back to the marriage?" And she replied "I was never going to leave". Now I'm sure that's revisionist history, but I'm sure there's a part of that that's true. In her reflections since the A, she realizes she wasn't going to leave, but at the time, she had convinced herself she would.

WPG...Yes, there were times I wanted to say F it and just leave. Not very often after we began true recovery, but while she was getting thru WD, definitely. And then I'd think about our kids and again, what I would do if she was in a car wreck and needed my help, and it would convince me to try a little longer.

And I agree with Writer. O&H is the only way. Not being honest is what got you in this position in the first place. Don't let it be the thing that stops you from having that marriage you want. What's the worst that could happen? He doesn't come back to the marriage? If so, at least you'll know it's not because you weren't honest with him.

H4U

OK, first of all, CV, you read my entire thread? Hooo boy, you are probably cross-eyed by now. I can be pretty, uhm, epic as far as post length!

Second, you pointed out that I always walk away when I cry. Yes. I do everything in my power not to cry in front of him anymore. It's difficult, because I often catch myself crying during SF. My immediate thought is that if he sees me cry, he will think I am thinking of POSOM. That's not a DJ, he has told me that he thought I was depressed over missing POSOM and not over the state of our M. I always felt like I was damned if I did, damned if I didn't with H. He also has mocked my tears and told me that it's just something else I am able to fake. I'm also afraid crying will be viewed as "needy." So no, I have not wanted to cry in front of him anymore.

Anyway, writer, H4U, you guys are right, I know I am not being O&H with him. But what am I supposed to be O&H about? He knows that I love him and that I want to save our M. The last time I tried to open up to him was the last time we discussed anything relationship-wise, and that was in January. I still got the eye rolls and derisive snorts. I have tried writing letters to him, but I haven't written anything in a while of any real depth.

When he was actively engaged in R way back in the beginning, we both talked about the things that the other did that hurt us, things that had hurt for years but neither of us had sat down and tried to articulate them to each other. So, for example, he knows that it hurts me when instead of saying hello, he glares at me, or when he ignores me or walks away when I am talking to him. That stuff hasn't magically stopped hurting me since he left, but he chooses to respond that way to me now anyway.

So what do I tell him? That a little part of me dies every time he leaves me? That I have 2 of his dirty t-shirts in a drawer by the bed? That I sleep curled up against his pillow so I can pretend he's still there with me? That I don't even pray about us anymore because I'm so hopeless? Or how I am all the time thinking I hear his car drive up or the garage door when I am in bed at night, and how sometimes I dream about him coming home and then I wake up and it is the same damned thing every single day? That I am trying to be a perfect little Martha Stewart + Carmen Electra to try and attract him back and I'm completely wearing myself out? That I feel like less of a woman, less of a wife, less of a mother, less beautiful, less desireable, less worthy? Makes me sound pretty pitiful and needy.

The thing is, I know I don't "need" him to do anything...I can function reasonably well on my own if that's how it is going to be. But I want him. The POSOM didn't win. H won my heart. He may not want it anymore, but he won it just the same.

I could try to tell him all of this. And maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt, that he wouldn't respond like he has in the past...but I don't see him as being O&H with me either. He opened up to me for those few months but now I don't even know if that was real anymore. I know exactly why he feels like he can't trust me, I lied so much during the A and in the months to follow, he doesn't know what is real either. But I am not sure I trust him anymore either - I don't know if I trust him to receive my RH without using it to lash back at me. And sure, maybe I deserve that for what I did, I won't deny that, but it doesn't make it hurt any less.

WPG, I want to take some time to respond to your post, but that will probably be tomorrow. For now, just wanted you to know you've been heard.

Hi WPG ...




If at first you don't succeed, walk away????
No, methinks not.
If H has the wrong idea, you present him with the truth.
If he does not believe you, live the truth until he sees it.



Would you appreciate "the benefit of the doubt"?
Do you plan to have a O&H standoff for a long time?

This is the most interesting part....

I don't know if I trust him to receive my RH without using it to lash back at me. And sure, maybe I deserve that for what I did, I won't deny that, but it doesn't make it hurt any less.


If he lashes out at you, respond with O&H.
"Your comment hurts, but I appreciate your honesty. Thank you."

Pep, what should I do? Is it just a matter of giving honest FB when something happens ("It hurts me when you walk away when I am talking to you, it makes me feel...") and to do that when it happens, instead of waiting till later ("You know, this morning it really hurt me when...")? If I get a response like, "Well, it hurt me when you slept with POSOM," then tell him (essentially) "Ouch"? And you know that's exactly the response I am dreading.

Do I need to continue to tell him how I feel about our M? Dr. H said I shouldn't pursue, and I guess I don't know what would be considered pursuit and what would just be honesty. Every time now we're in bed together, I just want to ask him if it still means nothing to him. I don't know what his intentions are and this limbo is killing me. I agree I am being totally stupid here...just like I tried to lie to trap him into staying in this M, now I'd rather not know HIS truth and keep what little bit of him I have.

Yes...I would appreciate the benefit of the doubt from him as well. I know we are in some kind of wierd stalemate and I think for years, well before the A ever entered the picture, neither of us were honest with the other. We made assumptions about how the other felt and never bothered to come out and ask or talk about things. We didn't talk about the things we did that LB'ed each other. I have gotten much better at avoiding my own LB's, but I see where the dishonesty comes in is that I am not honestly telling him when he LB's me. I need to go back and look at my notes from my sessions with JC b/c I think we talked about exactly that.

You WANT something?
Give something instead.
What? The VERY idea !!! Shocking !!!

Alternative to the 3rd degree:
"Making love to you is like *insert something wild or unexpected* that fulfills my desire."
*eating a double fudge/carmel sunday with extra nuts and a cherry*
*listening to the world's most beautiful music"
*seeing a double rainbow in Hawaii*
*experiencing a soul massage*
*kisses everywhere*

He may not respond well, at first, but I know that you know that is not a valid reason to stop !

Right?