Schtoop - thanks for the advice. This is very helpful and I will make sure I alter my Plan A immediately and stop asking those kind of questions and looking for reassurance.

As far as no contact, I do know there was contact about a week ago, and she told me beforehand that there were some questions that she had that were unanswered and she was not prepared to let it go without getting some kind of resolution. The A ended bad when my wife broke it to the OMW over the phone, and the OM was there with his wife. About a day before that OM had sent my wife a text saying he was ending it and was trying to work things out with his wife...but that was not at all consistent with what he had been saying. Then he would not respond to my wife's texts or calls, and finally when she called on D-day his wife answered his phone and he would not get on the phone...and then all hell broke loose.

After that, he turned on my wife 100% and just started trashing her and lying about a lot of things. From what I can gather she was struggling with this because she was so pissed and wanted to know if that is really what he felt, and why he did that. So they did talk on the phone for about 20 minutes about a week ago and apparently she got the answers she was looking for, and there has been NC since on the phone.

One of the reasons I guess I do believe her about the NC other than that is because she has not sugar coated anything, and has not given me any answers to spare my feelings...if anything she has been a little too honest.

Well, it's still pretty fresh and precarious (IMO) so get that keylogger put on.

You'd be surprised at the rationales used to resume contact. The urge to resolve unanswered questions, or the "I want closure" crap-excuse can lead her down a bad path.

It's good that it ended badly, though, so you do have that going for you.

Never believe a WS who has had recent contact about whether there is still contact. Never.

Was she willing to send a NC letter? Will she change her phone number?

If the answer is NO to either one of the above, you need to keep your eyes WIDE open.

The "minimum relationship talk" is a good Plan A tip. Have you read Mr Wondering's list of do's and don'ts of Plan A?

Written by Mr Wondering:

Do's
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts
1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

Thanks Susie,

I had not seen the list and thanks for sending it...I will print it out and study it over and over. I am guilty of a few of the dont's on the list.

I don't know if she would agree to the NC letter right now or not. She says she will not be contacting him anymore. I will know if she does by phone, and once the keylogger is installed I will know about other means. He is an extremely paranoid person, so he was apparently always reluctant to e-mail...as it would leave evidence.

According to my wife, the last words of there phone call were him saying he had to get back to what he was doing, and that he could never forgive her for the way she outed things, and now his kids would never look at him the same way (too bad POSOM).

Any suggestions on how I can get her to agree to a NC letter? Is this something that waywards will usually do early on in the process? Or should I give it a little time and keep my eyes WIDE open to ensure there is NC?

I would sit her down and tell her that you have a lot of hope for your future and are willing to make changes where you were lacking in the M but that it is not unconditional ~ that she will have to commit to a No Contact plan, starting with sending a NC letter. She may not be willing to do this at first but you need to plant the seed NOW that this is non-negotiable. Be calm but firm.

A couple of Qs:
Have you gotten SAA?

And has this been exposed to your close family and friends?

Susie - I am actually getting ready to head out to lunch and go to the bookstore and pick up SAA, so I should have it within an hour. I do have His Needs, Her Needs that a friend gave me.

We have discussed the NC (not the letter though) and she knows that it is non-negotiable on my part. I have told her, in a non threatening way, that there is no chance of us working anything out as long as she maintains any contact with OM. At least now she says she is satisfied since they talked last week and move forward...and that she has no intentions of contacting OM. BTW, OM has not contacted her at all, at least not by phone because I would have seen that, but then again he has a disorder that allows him to shut someone out completely if he feels they wronged him in anyway, and he does feel that my wife wronged him when she outed to OMW.

Close friends are aware (she had already told a couple of her friends while it was going on...and they also knew about my A three years ago), and any of our friends that knows him does not like him at all.

Her mom knows, and she said he is the only person in her life that she can think of that she really did not like. They had it out a couple of times and he was very nasty to her mom...and my wife did not side with her mom...but at the time her mom was living with us and had a bad drinking problem.

My family is WAY to biased to talk to about any of this. That is just how they are. And they are not the best to talk with about these kinds of things. I learned that when I told them about my A.

I will try and sit down with my wife this weekend and discuss the NC letter. She just texted me while I am writing this and is asking about doing things around the house this weekend...which is the first time anything like that has been discussed since this all broke 5 weeks ago. Hopefully that is a good sign.

What is confusing and all muddled up is the demarcation point from Plan A to Recovery.
There is a lot of advice about NC, EPs. However, a lot of that type of thing falls under the "Don'ts"

A few months into this and I am still confused by all the advice... "your WW should do this or that.... why don't you have NC letter.... what are your EP's?"

When you are dealing with foggy WS, and working on Plan A... according to the Do's and Don't list you don't have a committment to R and you cannot force that commitment.

I agree that Jack's WW MUST have absolute, total, lifetime NC with this POSOM. Filled with Extraordinary Precautions.

But his WW has to agree on that Recovery Plan.

On so many of these threads we are dealing with Plan A husbands and their foggy wayward wives. The foggy WW's don't understand exposure, don't want to be "told" they "must" make a NC agreement, don't agree to EP's.

Trying to answer my own question here to help Jack. (and myself).
You DON'T get NC, EP by:
-Argue, Reason or Plead
-Discuss morality, invoke God
-Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"

I cannot find on the "DO" list what you do to get NC, EP...
But from the lessons over the months, I might suggest telling her something like:

"Well, if I wanted to commit to a Marital Recovery, here is what I would do... A) Make a No Contact Plan and Pledge and B) Make Extraordinary Precautions. Then I would C) Build Romantic Love again through focused EN's and $LB building. What do you think of that honey?"

Listen to her response and DON'T:
-Argue, Reason or Plead
-Discuss morality. invoke God

Thanks for asking those questions Stretch. That is part of what I am trying to figure out. If the wayward is still in a fog, how do you get her to make a firm commitment to NC, EP's, etc. Do I give it a little bit more time?

One more question - after I install the keylogger, what is the best way to approach the wayward if I find evidence the A is still going or that she is lying about other things related to this?

Do you let them know and give them another chance since they are still probably in a fog and not thinking rationally?

I'll let others reply re: NC letter because my wife did it twice and then broke it twice. I didn't bother the third time because I was just going to divorce her instead. She got her act together and then got on board with the marriage. At first, though, she was fence-sitting and I'd say it took maybe a month after "real" no-contact to see a "real" change. Lots of little steps at first, unfortunately.

If you find that contact is broken, don't tell her "how" you know, only that you "do" know. You don't want to give away your source. If you find it broken, confront her with it, re-expose to anyone that can be of influence and draw the line in the sand: "WW, either this stops right now or you need to go file for a divorce right now because I don't need to be married this bad. Make a decision, right now, it's either him or me." And mean it.

From my experience, you have to be willing to leave this marriage before you can recover it. That is, you have to get to the point where you won't stay married at all costs. Make sense? Your mileage may vary, of course

If my 5-yr old did something wrong, I could (perhaps) say, well he's young and not thinking rationally.

With an adult, IMO, they don't get that grace period. It's really got to be black or white here, but I think you already know that and have conveyed that to your wife. Right?

Thanks North - you brought up a good point about the NC letter. If WW is going to make contact with OM, a letter is not going to stop her. And as far as what to do if I find out that A is going on still, I agree that I won't be able to overlook that as fogbabble.

One more question that I have that really has not been discussed much on here is intimacy during Plan A. Is it recommended that the BS try to be intimate with the wayward, or just play it by ear? We have only been intimate twice in the five weeks since this all broke...but she also was very sick for about a week and it was off limits per the doctor during that time.

Not trying to be too glib, JITB, but it's important to keep in mind that the very essence of Plan A is to demonstrate to, and remind, your WW why returning to you is the preferable alternative, in everything she is aware of your doing and being.

So, as in everything else you do during your concentrated Plan A behavior, if you feel that SF is something that can assist you in luring her back to you, and away from any other partner....well, just make sure you do it well!

(Nope, this can't be worded anyway but awkwardly!)

Well, that was my experience. Mine used it just to get me off her case, and she did so masterfully I might add.


By all means, YES, try! If you can meet those top intimate ENs (Sex, recreational companionship, affection, conversation) then you'll get the most bang for your buck. I know it's kind of strange that you're having to ask these questions about your own wife, as though it is middle school all over again, but such is the game I guess.

What?!?

Is NG at a loss for words?

What i am always baffled about is that the same thing that broke my marriage also saved it. Sex. The intimacy that occurs during sex (even when i didn't feel like it, or she didn't feel like it) formed a type of bond. In fact, SF was happening more between us than her and the OM. I truly believed that helped save us. Afterwards, it was difficult and often heartbreaking, but it maintained that bond of marriage.

My advice is that so long as you can, you should continue it.

The NCL is a valuable piece of information about ~ a) whether she is serious about NC and b)her willingness to implement EPs.

Does it mean every time it is sent there is not a FR? No! But I can tell you that her unwillingness to send it is a big RED FLAG.

jack, I thought this exchange between MelodyLane, one of our vets and stretch on his thread could help you: