No your usually direct. So are you referring to the birth control thing? If you are, I've already taken the first step and made my appointment with my gyno, which is much more than I can say about H (apologize in advance for DJ). I've already started my research. I asked him about three or four times just to get a consult, NOT a vasectomy. Hmmm still waiting for any information my H can provide me. You said don't force H on the subject or he will be resentful. Just so you know I'm pretty resentful that I had the option of tubal and H was dishonest about his true feelings. You said it's ok for someone to change their mind, yes I believe this as well. However this was never the case the was no intention, which means he never had to change his mind. Oh well, guess I will get over it (I'm actually being serious, I'll have to get over it). But sorry his only option is to look into just the pro's and cons. Wow that's only one thing to research, let's hear about it respectfully. Then all the options are up to me and I'm more than willing to look it up. I'm not enthusiastic about any of that but I will still check up on my options. So if there is no sex involved until this gets resolved and H has to get reacquainted with his hands until then, it's temporary. I understand he needs sex, but the latter of having another child far out weighs sexual fulfillment in my arena. I'm not intentionally withholding sex, I'm horrified at the thought of getting pregnant!

Your OB/GYN should be able to discuss the Vasectomy with y'all, if you do a BC consult together. Mine did. And, she was very frank with the side effects, risks, and other issues, and presented us with a lot of good information. I was glad we went together because we could both ask questions and no one was concerned about not getting the information they needed or it being twisted to fit what they wanted.

There's a lot of BC options other than the V - Condoms, spermicide, BC pills, rings, IUDs. Why not use a temporary measure until you decide on something permanent?

I understand from your DH's thread that you are afraid of the cancer risks with IUDs? I strongly encourage you to talk to your doctor and get some valid, up to date information on them. Even if you don't get one, don't scare other women with the decades old fears of cancer.

Ok whatever with the cancer wives tales. The truth of the matter is H knows I have never put any drugs into my body since he has known me. I pretty much had a high dose tylenol after my c-section. I'm just not wild about putting things into my body. It also doesn't help that two of my friends had IUD's that fell out, one of which fell out into her uterus and had it surgically removed. Can you say horrified again? I'm sure IUD's are just lovely for some. Anyway we could go back and forth on who loves what forms of BC and what works for them. Just awaiting more info and appointment.

Kudos on getting the appointment set up. Have you invited Hilltopper to go with you? It would be great if the two of you could receive the same information, and be able to ask any questions. It would be easier to make a decision together that way.

Cut it out. Both of you are acting like the other is doing nothing and that you're having to do all the work, when I see both of you looking into options.

Yes, Hilltopper should've been O&H with you when you could've easily had the tubal. But he wasn't. Are you going to hold on to that resentment? Holding on to past mistakes is one of the enemies of your marriage that Dr. Harley talks about. It's not going to get you anywhere you want to go.

You might have to take drugs, though.

And, there are hormone free IUDs. And, there are hormonal rings. I had a blood clot and a pregnancy on BC pills.

I also had a friend who's uterus was perforated in a freak accident with her IUD. I had a friend who lost her IUD.

I've known 4 clients in my old insurance office that had V babies. And 7 or 8 who had tubal babies.

I think abstinence is the only 100% sure method of BC.

Sh*t happens. Talk to your doctor, be open minded, and remember that millions of women are very happy with BC. I believe in better living through chemical means. I see the V as totally unnatural and I believe they cause a ton of problems (there was a recent Mens Health or other such article about the side effects of one, I read it at my doctors office).

I sympathize with this, btw.

An option that I suggested to Hilltopper is that the two of you consider negotiating a temporary birth control method -- something non-permanent, that you would plan on using for a short period of time (a few months, maybe). This would take some of the immediate pressure off of you for the time being.

Part of the problem here is that both you and Hilltopper do not have a lot of experience with negotiating. And birth control is a highly emotional and difficult topic to negotiate.

If you can use a temporary method for a few months, while you're learning negotiation on smaller issues and filling your love banks, birth control will not be as difficult to figure out in a few months. You will have more experience with negotiation, and fuller love banks.

So, consider it.

As I said, we could go back and forth about BC. What you like, what I like. Experiences, etc, etc... Fact is I need to do what's right for me and H.

Grace, I, too, volunteered for a tubal when I was possibly facing a c-section, and went into delivery with those instructions to my DR--if you cut, go ahead and *fix* me.

My H agreed to a vas if delivery was vaginal.

I, erm, won.

I can imagine the betrayal you feel at having offered at the time and now he's backing out. I will tell you NOT to have unprotected sex until he's had TWO clean sperm checks if he does go vas. I was at the same point as you, demanding that he honor his commitment, but I also threatened to do it myself and leave him home for three days with very small children, which he didn't want to do. I, erm, won again, but I also got another child for my trouble.

Great, you see Hill looking into options? Tell me more. I've heard no research other than he is doesn't like the thought of surgery (totally valid feelings). Just wondering.

The truth is I'm so paranoid about another kiddo (I do love my kids dearly) that even if Vasectomy was an option and done I'd be a psycho and still use another method as a backup.

And Hopeful NC, my daughter's friend is a product of Vasectomy so yes there are stories everywhere.

PS CWMI,

lol on the surprise child! I obviously would have been ok with two and a surprise just not three and a surprise.

So what is your 'best case' option? I would not have allowed my H to undergo a vas (which is highly tough on a man mentally if they have any, ANY question about the outcome) if I would have insisted on another form after that anyway.

Which I should have, in retrospect.

But I don't regret not doing that.

I'm just glad it's over now. I did refuse to have sex with him until he brought me clear results or condoms.

IF he had brought me unclear results, I would have fixed me, I was that done. My H is a post-tubal baby, though. I think it must run in his family, "We'll be born if we flipping want to!"

So according to MB how should I respond to my H telling me I am a bully and him sending an article "10 signs your wife is an emotional bully". This is how he feels about me.

Tell him to stick to MB material and not pay mind to sites plugged for 'men leaving abusive relationships' because those are filled with anti-marriage advice.

And don't be a bully.

Actually, thinking on it, you could ask, "Have you given up on MB?"

If he says no, you could say, "I'm confused about how this article fits with MB. Would you explain it to me?"

Interestingly enough the last paragraph of the article states:

"Life is too short to spend one more second in this kind of relationship. If your partner won�t admit she has a problem and agree to get help, real help, then it�s in your best interest to get support, get out, and stay out."

Hmmm

Although I see his points and see some similarities in the article. I didn't AO (that's for Prisca). I said I need some time on how to respond to this, I'm not really sure how you want me to respond to this. Tension ...

If Hill intends to MB, then those kind of crap articles have no bearing. You guys can't piecemeal this program with other stuff.

I'd tell Hill, "I understand why you sent that to me. I think you brought us to the best possible program (MB) and I'd rather stick with that and not pollute our thinking with advice outside of it."

If you're both committed to the program - decide to give the program XX days and reevaluate and decide where to go from there.

I'm a really assertive person and in a position of leadership at work. It's normal for me to make decisions and expect people to follow me. I have to be careful that my DH is really enthusiastic about things because we're both conflict avoiders in our marriage and he'll agree to most anything to please me. And, he and I are pretty independent people by nature.

You have to make sure that your DH feels safe negotiating things, that there will not be repurcussions or anger over the negotiations. DH and I still suck at negotiation, I still cry most of the time when we POJA big stuff. Funny, I used to negotiate big business deals cool as a cucumber, POJA with my DH leaves me in tears. Go figure. And, I don't know if you do this or not, I sure did, but I would be relentless until I persuaded him (or wore him down) to why my way is better.

We still fail at POJA sometimes because my DH just won't say what he thinks, but he's been doing this all his life, and it takes time to rebuild those habits. And, he's not comfortable renogiating a decision on the fly with me yet. It's taken time for him to learn that I will not punish him for disagreeing with me to get my way. And, the past few weeks he's really sacrificed his happiness for me because of all that's happened. There can't be sacrifice long term in a happy marriage - it won't work. Sometimes you have to come up with creative ideas to make POJA work, and you really can't steamroll your DH into agreeing with you with MB. It really doesn't work.

And, he will make his mind up and nothing will change it. He's had to get over that and learn that he can't make decisions without me. And, I've had to quit making decisions without him and learn to tell people I'll check with my DH and call them back.

I think the reason we're still failing POJA at times is because he's still traveling too much, and that's way outside of the program. We get our 15 - 20 hours, but it's spread over 4 days, and I'm alone 4 nights. So, keep that in mind from me.

I wanted to add that POJA doesn't really work without PORH (policy of radical honesty) because if you're not honest with each other (not saying you're not being, I get the feeling he's not being 100% honest about how he feels, then he gets upset because he feels like you bullied him into decisions? Am I right?) then POJA will fail.

The PORH goes back to feeling safe enough with each other to share your honest feelings, and that's really hard at first.