No worries.

I don't know where I'm at. Where do I jump in at? I just found this site a few days ago. I did read the carrot/stick plan. I just didn't think it was possible to even DO that until he we started talking again these last couple of days. He left in January, moved in with his GF, and my actions said "Oh, yeah, if you want a divorce I'll give you one. I'm too good for you anyway." After reading SMB's story, I realize that was anger. I didn't think it was anger, I thought I was 100% sure. My LB has been depleted. His LB has been depleted. I thought maybe doing this picnic thing would put something in there to work with. I hope I did not do the wrong thing.

I can do plan B, but all the ducks I'm supposed to get in a row and slam him with are already done. I just need to lose contact with him. I have no one that would be willing to be the go between for us. Everyone is so angry with him and even if they weren't, I don't think they'd want to be bothered. I don't have close family, and I didn't even have friends until he left. I can certainly TRY to find someone willing to do it, but I just don't think it's likely.

I guess what I was hoping the forum would help me make a plan. I don't know where to begin because most of the stuff is already done. I certainly don't want that man he is right now. I just didn't think the man I married was under all that stuff. I thought this was the real him. I didn't realize that he really didn't "never love me" and "just used me to have kids for his father". I believed him. I never heard of "fog talk" before finding this site. If my husband is somewhere under all that stuff I'd like to have him back, if it's possible. There's no way I'm settling for what he is now.

No one would recommend an instant Plan B for you unless WH is abusive/dangerous or a drug addict.

What have you done so far?

Go item by item & let us know.
What you have done, not what WH's response was.



The carrot?
What have you done?
Be specific.
The planned picnic is a perfect carrot opportunity.

This is a good motivator.



So far, OK.
You acted quickly to protect the kids & yourself financially.


Did you do a lot of love busting?



hmmmmmmm
Maybe we can change his impression. Assuming you want to.
Do you?


They are probably still in touch. One way or another.
Any way you can be certain she really is gone?
How did you get this information?
From WH? From the kids?







OK



Moping is good.
The more moping the more "gone" she probably is.
It won't last forever.
It isn't all over her either.
He also mopes because he's got a crappy life now and thinks this...

"Too much has happened. I can't fix this."





Do you want to reconcile?

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Conversation - I have been talking to him on the phone.

Sexual fulfillment - I can't have sex with him. I just won't do it. Who knows what kind of junk he got from her, plus it would diminish all of my self worth.

Affection - I haven't caressed him since that first week. He came home to tell me why he left and I tried but he just laid there and said he didn't feel anything. That he wanted to, but couldn't. :o( Then he took the kids to meet her right afterward. I don't think it's appropriate for me to just start touching him, do you?

Admiration - I can admire him. He got a new job, a good job. I've already asked him about it and he was excited to tell me about it.

Attractiveness - I've lost a lot of weight since he's left. I've started to dress less frumpy and wearing makeup. He's not said a word about it.

Honesty and Openness - I have no problem with this. I've always been honest.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

I have an exclusive domain order. He can't be in the house unless I want him in here. The last time I let him in, which was about 3 months ago while the kids were sick, he took pictures of the kitchen because there were dirty dishes on the counter. I'm not prepared to let him in the home in case this nice stuff is him trying to play me. I want to be sure he's serious. Plus, I'm afraid if I let him in here I won't be able to keep myself from succumbing to his words and do something I'll regret later (sleeping with him).

When and if I do let him in here, it will be very inviting.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

I don't know what to say here. Until he left, I thought everything was working. He seemed happy. We rarely had fights. I don't really know what wasn't working (although I do have a few ideas and have fixed them). He's never told me.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Him leaving me has let me become my own person. Something I haven't been for years. The kids and him were my life. Becoming my own person has allowed me to improve in a lot of areas.


Stop lovebusting behaviors.
The one I have trouble with is disrespectful judgments. Now that I have that identified I can stop myself from doing it.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

I tried so hard to do this. I really did. About a month or so ago, I realized talking on the phone wasn't doing us any good, so I asked him to start emailing me. He didn't like it at first, but finally gave in. Things have calmed down and it's easy to talk to him now. If it gets bad again, I can try even harder to do it after knowing how important it is.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Hopefully I can show him this at the picnic.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

He has no idea that I want one. I told him him just last week that no amount of marriage counseling would ever make me want you back. I mean it at the time, but not so much now. I'm too afraid to tell him how I feel after everything that's happened.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.

He knows I forgive him. I told him that. It's just hard to do it over and over again when he kept doing things to me and the kids. I'm not much for not forgiving people, all it does is hurt yourself.


I think that's everything. If you need more specifics, feel free to ask.

Hey ..... you're doing better than you think you are.

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

He did that himself, by moving in with her. She's 21 and left her then live in boyfriend. I told my family and church pretty much right away. He lost his job because of fraternizing.


Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

I didn't do any exposing. I have told him that he is committing adultery. He denies it because we were separated when they got together. I'm not sure if there was sex before hand, but there was definitely emotional stuff going on. I'm just matter of fact. Once I did say I didn't want that whore around my kids, but the next day I apologized. I didn't want to, but it was the right thing to do. That's the worst thing I've said about the whole thing.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

I've never spoken to him about this. He knows I'm angry. I did tell him that, but not that the kids and I are hurt. I think he'd be stupid to think we're not hurt, but I guess that's what "fog" does to a WH.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Never will happen. I can accept responsibility for not fulfilling his emotional needs. HE should have told me that he needed something. Instead he was a coward, and found it somewhere else. He should have guarded his heart.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Definitely. For example, when he found out what child/spousal support was going to be he called me furious. He said that he couldn't afford that. He said that the kids were going to hate me because I was sending him to jail. I calmly told him that I didn't come up with the amount. That the state determined it based on a formula. That I wasn't going to do a thing about it. That I wasn't taking the blame. That he made his bed and now he has to lay in it.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Yes.

You're in good shape.

Here's an area to tweak.

The foggy ARE stupid.
Never underestimate their stupidity.
They tell themselves the most egregious lies to give themselves permission to be so cruel & selfish.

A common example:

"The kids will be happy for me when they see how happy OW makes me."


Have your eldest write a "Dear Daddy, this is what hurts...." letter.

Can you write out (and post it here first) a descriptive letter to your H which gives him a laser sharp view of your pain? The time to hand it to him will be later.

Go on the picnic.
Avoid any & all relationship talk.

Like I told Indie girl, just "shush" him if he tries to get serious.

Say: "Today is just for fun. Nothing else."

Ask the 2 younger kids to draw pictures of what their hurt looked like when Daddy left.

Save these for later too.

Let's Plan A this Toad of yours, and see if there might be a prince in there ..... somewhere under the warts.

Nothing to lose by trying, right?

Thank you very much for this advice. I need to get in touch with those feelings. I kind of pushed them out of the way so I could survive these last 5 months. I think writing that letter would be good for me.

I'll see what I can do with my older son. He knows he's mad and hurt, but he's not real good at expressing himself. I can't even get him to talk to me about it. I tried to get them both to journal in the beginning. They did, but that was before I had the exclusive domain order. He came here when we weren't (with the girl - - and she left her diet mountain dew bottle on my dresser to make sure I knew)and he read them. They've never wanted to do it since.

I am so glad to hear this. I thought all was lost. :o)

Ask the 11 year (DS11) old to write a short story. Suggest he begin by referencing his favorite sport.
Ask DS11 to describe in detail the very worst imaginable injury that sport could bring. Bring on the blood and guts and broken bones. The juicier the better.
Then, have DS11 compare a nasty physical injury with how much pain & hurt he felt when Dad left the family.

These are just suggestions.
Be creative.
Use what your kids know and are good at as a jumping off point.

These things will be of use ESPECIALLY if there is a recovery !

The Toad can use the stories/drawings as a way to frame his apology .... if it ever gets that far in recovery.

You never know.
Might as well try, right?

I am a huge fan of Plan B.
But, Plan B stings a WayWardToad a lot more after the correct Plan A love bank deposits.

Just shelve ALL your expectations about how WH should respond to Plan A.

OK?

You can always Plan B.
Especially if you feel a nervous breakdown is headed your way.

Keep posting.

He told me that she couldn't deal with all of the "this".

They are still in touch. He is in on her cell phone plan and he's trying to get her to sign him off, but she hasn't and is acting "weird".

He just called. Asked to talk to me. He wanted to thank me for talking to him lately. That he hopes we can be friends and that he wished it would have been like this from the beginning. I just sort of made a sound. He said it didn't feel like I wanted to, but that it was mostly his fault. He said he hopes we can be friends and he knows that it won't be easy. He knows from experience. I said I can try.

This sounds like he just wants to be friends. I am not okay with this. I'm not spending my life planning picnics to be friends. I want to see if I can make this work, and if I can't I want to move on. This makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. What is your opinion?

This is par for the WH who really does not want to lose the benefits of wife/family while he presses on with a single life which includes other women.

The fantasy divorce is one where everyone celebrates holidays together singing "Kumbaya".

It does not change the Plan A strategy.

Try really hard NOT TO discuss the relationship.
It will undermine your Plan A.

You are not going to be doing Plan A very long, so you must make it a good one.

You are not wasting your time in Plan A.
You are giving him a vision of what a fantastic woman he is married to.
He will want to continue seeing such a fantastic woman.

Then, the lights go out and you are not meeting any of his needs.

The darkness is all the darker because you shone so brightly in Plan A.

Understand?

Plan A has nothing to do with his attitude.
it is a strategy you determine on your own.

That is TOTALLY what he wants. He said as much. It makes me sick. You have really put this in perspective. I can do this. Thank you. :o)