Well, I guess in my heart I knew too that when I placed some of those boundaries down that he would balk. I didn't think it'd be divorce, I figured in the end he really loved me and wanted to be married- and would therefore respect my request. And really, do we want to be with people who are not able or willing to do that?


I struggled with this for a bit, and honestly I'm sure it will creep back in my world again. But at this point I have to say to myself "get a grip." I did my best, I know what I needed I asked for it- it wasn't unreasonable, and he was unwilling to meet that need. That's all I need. Not when, why, how come he stopped- HE JUST DID and HE WASN'T WILLING TO CHANGE BACK. So now my focus has turned to my personal healing of me. Learning how to have fun as a single, doing things on my own, figuring it out, learning to not depend on him for ANYTHING... Basically, just dealing with the situation at hand.

I really think we could beat ourselves up about the where's, when's, and why's of it all... but is it really helping us? If you had those answers what good would it do? I think all we can do is use what we have learned and move forward, not letting this one piece to the puzzle (that they might not even have) be the weight that drags us to the bottom of the ocean to kill us.


I think I want a W-2, credit check, full blown psychiatric evaluation, CPS background check and a FBI criminal report run for any potential boyfriend in the future... ya think that's too much to ask?


yes I too want equitable and fair, I believe he will feel this as "punishment" when the money comes out of his check. I guess I kinda feel like if you want out of this M so freaking much it's gonna cost you...maybe this is just my anger seeping out ..maybe this is a passing phase...

as far as just compensation being punishment, ya think those waywards think this way bc JC is something they really don't want to do but are doing it- therefore they feel they are being punished...

let's say, I know giving you gifts makes you happy, I want to make you happy I swing by the store and buy you a CD- bc I want to make you happy... Ok so let's look at the waywards- they screwed up, they hurt some badly and they HAVE TO FIX IT... part of the fixing is those darn deposits they are "REQUIRED" to do in order to fix the situation.... well now that it is REQUIRED and the HAVE TO DO IT maybe it feel like a punishment to them- from their perspective... bc the thought is- man my BS hurt, I hurt her, I MUST buy a CD to make her feel better to repay her for what I did...

Ya know that mentality our children have- they can be doing something and enjoying the fact they are doing it- but AS SOON AS they HAVE TO do that same thing they no longer enjoy it- as a matter of fact they complain about it...

do you believe this may be the same thought process? I do...

As far as forgiveness, I hope one day not to hold it against this man the damage and pain he has cause...To release him from my mental prison... one day

That would be fun!

Definitely, after we have all been through the D process I'm in...


me too, I want to be married, I cant imagine my life not in partnership with a loving man... maybe it's in my cards maybe not...

one step at a time

Just had to respond to this one HF..

When my W stopped drinking and we were reconciled, there was a period of time when we were close and it never occurred to me she would fall again.

Of course there were still signs of her becoming very agitated and then there were the triggers familiar with her past and family that I both gently and firmly, and sometimes indignetly asked her to consider shoring up that wall to protect herself, because as in the first time, watching someone who says they love you abuse themselves is the worse kind of death by a 1000 cuts. Thats why I left before, but as true to addictions of any kind, it went underground. Even though she did not drink like she did before, the personality traits, and the denial of problems, were still there looming like blackmail that if she wasn't getting everything she needed, she could fall off the cliff again.

After 10 years of almost full sobriety and bringing the children up for years in a Christian Home where drugs and promicuity were shown for what they were, insecurity and fear, I never thought all that investment would go out the window. But it creeped back in again and she handled it just like before, and took the easy way out.."Its all somebody elses fault"

I took my stand, after 5 years doing a plan A<(not knowing MB but having the idea already I had no support or balance tho), and letting her make her own descisions before God,(Which I will allways do with anybody), she still hid and did what she wanted behind my back. Yes I let her know I knew something was up, told her she needed counsel, as she stomped off indignant that she was innocent. For the sake of recovery that I was SURE when she hit bottom she would seek, like before many times, and 10 years ago, I stayed so I wouldn't have to see our family fall apart.

I did more than anyone would have that I know, all in the name of God and restoration, understanding and acepting that she was extremly stubborn, willful, lived in denial, but could also act differently if she so chose. The choice was hers. She chose to run, blame life for the challanges God gave us to overcome, to reason and respect each other. This was a pattern I had told her about for years, that if she kept jumping off that cliff and expecting she could always bounce back and it was a slap in the face to those of us who had to pick up the peices, cover for her to the children, and to me, because I deserved more respect than that. Even the church with the famous Pastor who she felt close to governmentally had to stop picking her up and restoring her. The Pastor got sick and the people in charge who had watched her through the years pull this act backed away and offered counsel, but would not go after her anymore. Truth is they knew and witnessesed her through the years, and although at one time, as I had witnessed it also, she could hold her ground with any pastor there in the Grace of God, but her mind was slipping away, along with her personality and charisma, her looks and reputation, and the shield the head pastor had provided.

All I wanted was for her to stop the denial and drug abuse, and help work on the marriage, and I was waiting for her to hit bottom, and see the light.

Sometimes they don't see the light. Sometimes you can do everything right and cut off your right arm for someone and they spit in your face.

Calling them out to be responsible human beings no better or less than anyone else and acting like one is the best you can do for anybody. If they don't respond then its on them.

I never thought it would end up like it did either, but you did the right thing.

The wedding was beautiful. Unfortunately, it was at the same place where stbx and I had attended a wedding a few years ago. So, there were some triggers there, but I was able to really enjoy myself regardless.

It was a fun wedding. Nice ceremony outdoors in the courtyard of a historic museum. The weather was just right. Food and open bar afterwards, with a DJ and tons of dancing. I was able to borrow a great dress from my son's girlfriend, and felt pretty all night.

The bridal party, and a bunch of other people, including myself and my girlfriend's family, all went to a fun little bar a few blocks down from the wedding, with a live band, and closed that place down. Then, we went for breakfast, and then drove the 1 1/2 hrs home. We almost stayed in St. Augustine, but we both decided we'd rather wake up in our own beds. I didn't get home until 4:00 this morning. I slept until 2:30! Been nursing a slight hangover ever since.

Things for me have really changed since I've been working so hard on forgiveness, and seeing us all as wounded and broken to different degrees. No one is perfect. I had had a partial mind shift like this in the past regarding others, but not to the extent that I have since stbx left me, and a huge shift occured at that time. I mention this because I am grateful for it. It allows me to enjoy others, even while I am feeling so wounded. It helps me forget my pain for a time.

This shift has made it to where I am a much more loving person at heart, and I think people pick up on it, and feel at ease around me. I seem to have no trouble making great connections with people. I had a really good time last night, meeting a lot of people I've never met. There were 4 people from my girlfriend's family that I had met once already, and those connections grew as well.

Will come back later. Not feeling well at the moment, but I did have a good time. I just need to remember not to drink wine when I'm thirsty while dancing......

Sounds perfect, just the way to do it. Keep moving,

"Accentuate the positive..
and eliminate the negative..
and don't mess with Mr in-between." as the song goes

You need solid friends and aquiantences and healthy habits more than you need to figure out the weirdness of the aliens.

In the end just knowing they're weird is enough.

But at some time in the future if you absolutly must disect the thoughts and motivations of those that hurt you, do it at your leaisure. Take care of "your star player" as Kat Williams says, first, and the rest of the bullcrap falls away over time, objectivity, and distance from those who hurt you.

Psalm 119:117-119
Amplified Bible (AMP)

117 Hold me up, that I may be safe and have regard for Your statutes continually!

118 You spurn and set at nought all those who stray from Your statutes, for their own lying deceives them and their tricks are in vain.

119 You put away and count as dross all the wicked of the earth [for there is no true metal in them]; therefore I love Your testimonies.

I have found that this is true, although I have tried to reason with people who just don't want to accept it.


So if you want to vent and we can figure out why WH head went up his backside, stay doing the things you know are right for you MJ like you are.

The rest will fall in place in time.


Had great FD with my boys and out at freinds myself. Goin to bed soon and no late nite posting for me lol.

Thanks- I needed to hear that today!

MJ-

I'm glad you had an awesome night! Here's to more of those.

Just more junior headshrinking here guys. This is a quote from pyscology today blog I read here and is more about my late w than anything.
________________________________________
I will speculate here that the differences in personality disorder diagnoses between men and women may relate to the neurotransmitter dominance differences as well. Many more men have the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder than women - basically, a sociopath. A person with antisocial personality disorder generally lacks empathy for others, and often struggles with impulsivity and aggressive drives and substance abuse. That combination will get you sociopathic behavior - stealing, murder, etc.


On the other hand, many more women than men are diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Someone who has borderline personality disorder generally has trouble with relationships and containing feelings appropriately. He or she can struggle with rage and impulsive behavior also, but often the violence is directed at him or herself in suicide attempts or self-injurious behavior. A person with borderline personality disorder has empathy but has trouble applying it - he or she likely has boundary issues and has a hard time sitting with another person's pain without feeling it too much as his or her own. Thus he or she will feel very deeply for someone, then when it gets to be too much, push him or her away. People with borderline traits also tend to have impulsive behavior and have higher risk for substance abuse. Both borderline and sociopathic individuals are likely to have experienced abuse or neglect as a child, but some have not and still have the disorder.

(note: My late W to a tee, and she wondered why I absolutly hated her alchy parents and all it had done to her where she grew up)
___________________________________________________-

PD is in men too, and from what I can distinguish, as in most humans, it has to do with the emotional driving force of fear that overcomes thier reasoning.

We tend to feel a loss when our loved ones run out on us, pretending they know what they are doing, as they flash smoke and mirrors in thier exit, but when we get to the place where we see that they simply cannot make the right decsions and are emotionally incapable, it is time that we take them out of our lives and our childrens, because they are still children playing dress up. We also feel a great amount of pity for them, but respect is not there anymore like we need in a marriage, so that wont work either because the marriage needs both empathy and respect. They just have to be able to pull thier own weight. "Unequally yoked" maybe?

So it is not a loss, but rather a promotion, to let them go and play because they are children, as now we are the adults refusing to fall into that trap, and rising above childish things. We still can have times of play but we do not do it at other peoples expense, and we do it with planning. Yup we have a plan and enjoy it also while they blow whichever way the wind blows not knowing when they might feel good next time.

I would rather have the plan, and plan on working through problems, guess thats what buyers do..

Interesting blog.

My WXH told me once that he does not feel empathy. That should have been my signal to head for the hills, but I was clueless.

The blog you linked makes me suspect that he could be diagnosed with Anti-social Personality Disorder. But from my reading I believe him to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I guess it's all related and that's why the professionals are having a hard time figuring how to categorize these disorders.

Its funny because if we were smart, we would listen to our gut instincts when things started to go sour, and draw the line, let them figure out all the reasons, but more importantly, force them to change what they were doing.

"A disorder by any other name still smells as foul"
We just plain forgot, we didn't need that crap anyways.."What were we thinking?" That was the problem and the solution at the same time huh?

Ever hear the saying, "Thier so smart thier dumb?" I sometime feel that way. But we must process stuff over and over untill we throw it away because its useless practically in our lives. Its how it works I think...(There I go again thinking.. lol)

What they said about the chemicals and how they effect men and women differently make a lot of sense. I am gonna trust God though because thats where my peace will come from. I will take care of myself and let Him handle my chemicals in my head. I am sure he will with a little help from my friends.

Hello all. Wierd day today. This whole divorce process is feeling like an out of body experience. I can't really explain it except to say that I still feel disoriented, and numb at times. I made an appt with a doc this week to talk about it. Something has to give.

Ok, catching up here. I really should be working on stuff for the divorce, but I loathe it. Why? Because I know my stbx's definition of "fair and equitable" is not going to be the same as mine, and once again, I have to negotiate for what I think is fair. Stbx hated POJA, so my needs were not met in marriage with him either. Maybe that's why I dread this whole divorce process so much. He has always hurt me, and he will have no qualms with doing it one last time, in the biggest ways possible.

Updside. It will be the last time he can hurt me.

Moving on....



That's great C.P. I am so glad you were able to enjoy yourself with the kids, and your friends. You understand why we're here when that happens, I think.



Thanks C.P. I do think a lot of my healing has come from just enjoying whatever I'm doing with friends. It's funny and sad at the same time, that I use to be a more tightly wound, paranoid, whiny, didn't always have fun individual. That's hard to admit, but it's true. I was just unhappy, and ill equipped to do anything about it. Life with someone who has all the traits of NPD, and handling it all wrong at times, wasn't pretty. I am just a different person now. It's hard to describe all the shifts in me over the last several years, but mostly this year. I don't think my circumstances changed for the better, but I did.


Absoultely. And at my liesure, I have come to the conclusion that when I think about anyone being in my life, whether it be friends or a partner, the one thing that I will be watching out for in those relationships (most important with a partner) is that they are capable of respectful negotiation with me. In my opinion, anyone who cannot negotiate my happiness, along with theirs, is not someone I can trust to not hurt me. Negotiating my happiness will cover a lot of territory.

My first clue about why I should have never married my stbx is because he wasn't capable of negotiating my happiness. I'm not delusional enough to think that things will always be hunky dorey in any relationship, but without negotiation, my happiness doesn't stand a chance. Nor theirs really.



Maybe the ones you're trying to reach don't accept the Bible in general? I believe God said not to throw pearls before swine, if they don't want to hear it. I personally am open to listening, just to see what's being offered.

Out of the blue sidetracking here. Stbx went to AA a lot. One of their famous lines is "Take what you want, leave the rest". I wonder if that's where stbx picked up his trait of cherry picking the Bible, and the MB program for that matter.

End of detour.



I'm banking on it. Thanks C.P.

This is the way I felt, and things happened, after the initial d-day for us. Just exchange your wife's bottle, for my stbx's OW, and the story is the same.

It's all about wounds and coping mechanisms I think.

I thought my husband loved and respected my happiness enough too. No, I do not want to be with someone who cannot negotiate my happiness as well as theirs.



Sounds healthy to me.



Lol.....no.



Ya
Yes. I think if you have the mentality of a 10 year old brat, you'd see it as punishment. Sounds like a kid who trashed his room and is whining about cleaning it up. I do think it's a wayward thing. How many FWSs have you heard whining like that? Me, none. And that's probably because the true FWS are happily recovering in their marriages and not divorcing.



I see where my stbx is broken, and I forgive him daily. And I protect myself from him daily as well. I'm amazed that part of me still loves him, but it will be at a distance. He's not safe for me.

I too hope you can forgive him one day.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Sounds like a recurring theme these last two pages....."Childish things".

Mine went so far as to say he didn't feel empathy for ME. He could for others, but not me. He had a mental block. Wouldn't share the "block" with me. Yeah, that should have been my clue as well. Although, he later said he fixed the block. I don't believe he ever did, and that was just more lies.

Deep down, I always have felt that I was way smarter than my stbx ever gave me credit for. I do feel that I'm capable of way more than I have been, but am just fogged out from this relationship, and my own baggage. The fog is clearing, and I feel smarter every day. I think processing is good, if you don't get it at first.

It's like my head knew better, but my heart wouldn't listen and kept me in the craziness. It's taken awhile for my heart to catch up.

Yeah MJ, we will all help each other be strong here, as we make those shifts.

I heard the "pearls before swine" parable and relate to it also like you said, that they don't want to hear it. I later heard it comeplete though, and in context it makes even more sense as we have experienced it.

Matthew 7:5-7
Amplified Bible (AMP)

5 You hypocrite, first get the beam of timber out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the tiny particle out of your brother's eye.

6 Do not give that which is holy (the sacred thing) to the dogs, and do not throw your pearls before hogs, lest they trample upon them with their feet and turn and tear you in pieces.

7 Keep on asking and it will be given you; keep on seeking and you will find; keep on knocking [reverently] and [the door] will be opened to you.

These people who are not seeking anything sacred outside of themselves, and are feeding internal appetites that are selfish, not only will ignore thier own issues, but twist thier issues around to blame you. If you tell them something that pervades thier own selfish needs not only will they not value it, but continue to feed on you, because they are ravenously hungry. Swine cannot comprehend the value of pearls or wisdom, or things outside of thier appetite, just as those that are blind, refuse to see with thier will, so they just get frustrated and decide to feed on you.

It was when they tore me up that I really understood it..

As much as you try to help, they will not listen. I believe that was the door he was talking about, the door to wisdom.

I am not a studied scholar of the bible, but what I have learned is that it is misquoted and used so much to control people, and hence misunderstood in its meaning, that I have a hard time admitting I am a Christian. Its like Bill Maryh says, "I don't have a problem with God, its his fan club"

But I still learned my lesson a long time ago from a friend who accually knew the word, and it was what i guess you could call, a revelation.

You see, I was brought up as a Baptist, and my Gramma and Gramps, who were awesome people,(for real, not imagined), had a deep reverence for the word. When I was 5 years old, in Sunday School, it was made clear to me that if I wanted to get to heaven, it must be through the lamb of God.

Next in the mix is that I realized late one night that all my questions and fears could not be handled by my parents. Although my Mom was awesome without being strange, and a women full of faith, my Dad was distant and impatient, bordering anger whenever I talked to him about anything, he just couldn't be bothered. So one night at 5 years old I looked out the window and up and said,"It looks like I will have to depend on you Jesus" It was one of those night where the spirit of fear was getting to me, and I could hear them having thier own issues in the next room, in a quiet disscusion, that I knew was full of tension.

Then finnally there is this. The misquote of, "Money is the root of all evil", supposed to have come from the bible, and as all people knew, it was put there for our guidance in life. Because my Dad was obsessed with making money, borderline eventually slipping into paranoia, everybody was against him, everybody was stealing from him, and us children were for working for him and my Mom was social, had lots of friends, taught sunday school, worked on top of taking care of us, and allways made time for us. Well I hated money, it took my Dad away, he would never spend time with me and if he did he hated it. Yup not was only money the root of all evil, I could see the application.

When I was older, and said that aloud to a friend of mine, he corrected me on the scripture. I had just figured it was hogwash and superstition, and realized the value of money and what it was for, and it was how you used it that came out of your heart. He said, "Its the love of money that is the root of all evil"

Now after a time and thought, I could see that this is true, because money has a purpose, and without a planned purpose it is just raw power for no reason except for security. It took a few years to realize this, but that I had labored under the misconception that the bible had it all wrong, caused me to reexamine the scriptures at a deeper level, and sure enough, many of them held great truths muddied up by the wrong interpretation.

But if you think of it, hoarding and aquiring money just for the security of it, without planning to make the world a better place for us all to live in, just has to be the best way to screw up our system in many ways. Man created money to serve himself and others and thats what we are supposed to do with it, with wisdom and proper stewardship. After all, we can't take it where we are ultimatly going.

It was a shame I wasted so many years under that misconception but it also opened my eyes to many other truths in the word, and I never made the mistake of taking the spoken word lightly again.

Now that you told me that you used to be, what did you call it, NPD? MJ, I can understand more how stbx took advantage of your gentle nature. Shame on him, that he did so yes, but that he did not learn his lesson or value you either as he had the chance to do here. Its an old story I have seen many times. A man comes off like a KISA and likes that his GF is shy and cannot be her friend and build her up because he is so insecure. Then when she starts to become confidant and independant he gets more and more controlling. Hell I saw that deal happening back when I was a kid to women, older guys pulling in young girls just to take adtvantage of thier insecurity, and it allways boiled my blood. But it happens and it happens to men also in different ways not as obvious to me, but it is a confidance game that I could recognize in men early on.

I probably don't have it comepletly right in my head MJ, but i will admit I was a fool with my WW because she had me convinced she was dedicated to God. As a matter of fact, I thought I could trust her because she loved God more than me, if that makes any sense. I thought if she was that dedicated to truth and objective love from above, over human love, it would be the most stablizing relationship possible, and I should take the challange of trusting her...But that is another whole story and because I have yet to weed out all the details, I do not know how to condense the truth into one statement or two..

Not like the scriptures do anyway, and then you still have to read between the lines. No wonder Men study the Bible thier whole life and still are learning something new every day, and sometimes from the same scripture they read last week, and thought they understood it. I am not a bible thumper, and I know that truth can be conveyed by the spirit behind the action or words we use to communicate just as much as scripture, but I know the truth when I hear it in my heart, and I just can't help but to share it hoping to give others faith in Gods love for us, and that hope itself is alive in that spirit.

But the truth is still served either way, and the truths taught here in the MB concepts have allways been true in relationships. What a great place to have friends in.

Yes MJ trust your gut feeling which is what is called sometime where the spirit resides. The heart IS a combination of your mind and concsience also, so if you think something is wrong, then it is, and it is worthy of attention from both of you.

Your no dummy MJ, what are you in your early 40s?, late 30s?, you have a great future ahead of you and in time it IS getting better. Bet you get to the 4% mark sooner than you think

(((Mopey)))

Thank you so much for your contribution to the FR thread on the recovery forum.
I know it is painful to recall such hurtful events/things, but rest assured, it will be useful for other future betrayed spouses.

God Bless.

MJ, I believe that my STBXH is narcissistic too. He has told me little things over the years that should have warned me, but I could not comprehend that he can't feel other people's pain. Me, OTOH, feel too much. I guess I tried to BE his empathy. I thought I could love him enough to be able to feel again.

The truth is, I can't.............and you can't.