HHH-Just spent some time on this thread. You are one deep dude.

I have a lot to learn about being a man, which you know from my own saga.

mike

I ain't deep, man. I am simply open to learning and improving myself.

Welcome aboard!

*edit*

Next step of self-improvement; learn to accept a compliment?

Thanks, Mike.

^

This is a "deep" man, Mike!

Thank you for this CP!

totally been there myself. Just starting to break the habit. Its a whole new world when that clears

I am grateful now that you guys give a damn. Thank you.
[/quote]

Ya know whats funny strange, not funny haha, I did it all completly backwards.
1. First wife tried for two years after her affair and OC to fix it, but when she started up partying with her Sister again...sent her away knowing it was gonna hurt but it was the right thing to do.. and had hope that someday who knew..but there was a future..I was 22 and was married at 18 and had a great job and carreer path.

2. Second wife, got this one pregnant out of wedlock, 27 years old, put up with alcoholism and toattally crappy treatment way to long, and then finnally sent her away for what I thought was for good, and then fell apart and was needy and weak enough to get involved again with someone else...then when that fell apart went back to her an even more broken man...

3. After that I stayed, 1989 till she passed away in 2009,and would not budge, took all manner of crap, did the "suffering servent martyr" act, and when she relapsed into drinking and drugs as the last stage of selfishness, fell apart and chased her.

It seems that I was more desperate as time went on, and less confidant of the future, having "learned helplessness" ingrained into me over time. "gaslighting" was definetly part of it, but one would think it would go the other way around. I guess something inside said,
"Aw you are so awesome and have been such a confidant capable man, maybe you should be more nice and forgiving, as a matter of fact, thats your problem, you don't forgive enough"

Mel said in a sig line.."Misplaced compassion gives way to evil" or something to that effect. I guess sympathy for the devil is also an appropiate decription.

Such is it when you belong/join a church that would rather feel sorry you are possessed with demons, than see you free of them, to keep you coming back, insisting if you don't, you will die.

I know all churchs do not work that way, and if I was sure that they knew that was what they were doing, I would campaign against them with all my heart and soul. But that was how my wife was used by them, and she was tottally emotionally enthralled,(meaning enslaved), with it. I was just to close to the end product,(lost wife), to trust my instincts or judgement about them.

Funny thing is, as I got older, you would think I would be smarter and wiser, instead I went backward. Guess there is no fool like an old fool.

Just my opinion, but we all still have a lot to learn about that.

One of the men I greatly respect on the forums has the the name, "Just Learning"..I don't think we ever stop.

We can stop. We can choose to remain as we are, become monuments to ourselves and our egos, opinions, beliefs - and be a living preservation of a moment of time in our minds.

I know plenty of men (and women, for that matter) who are just that - emotional and intellectual statues.

It is not admirable.

Yeah like if we could freeze a moment in time where it was all perfect, but those times, good and bad, allways pass and are part of our process of living..

What good would it be to not be able to remember your first kiss, with all the mistakes and possible fantasies attached to it, if you could not reflect on the whole experience, as the past, because you have grown and changed since then? If you cannot appreciate the change, you cannot appreciate the time..

I am sure I am joined by many, that in the realm of marriage, what we first percieved as the reasons we keep the vows, have changed to deeper reasons we could not have understood, unless we kept them. By the same token, we later learn what can happen if we don't, and then see the wisdom in them.

Us guys have to keep moving forward, even when our world gets shattered, and do the thing that will lead us out of the woods..open our minds and think, learn, allow a new life to grow from the ashes of the past. Its a shame that our marriage partners make plans on how that is supposed to make them feel, and do not trust the vows made before the one who created marraige, and the authority on love. Then they leave when they can't control the feelings inside themselves instead of understanding them, or at least trying to. There are many avenues of denial, even God can become one for the really extreme cases, but where else would they go if they were forced to go there last in desparation? Nothing else works, they are at the end of themselves, and they can't fix thier life. I wish I could say that I had the humility to go to God every moment I experienced fear in my life. Some people find Scriptures and understanding and the healing of that and never let go after as they let it help them grow the rest of thier lives, some stop short in the forgiveness mode but still cannot accept that they need help, so they walk the fence. The most important part is the will of the person and thier freedom in making the decision. Once they own thier issues they can start to deal with them, it seems some never get to that part, and it is a mystery.

I think it is pretty common but definatly in my case I as a Christian took on Gods role instead of being obedient to what he says. I or anyone else is not supposed to endure dis-respect, adultry, within a marriage to the point of it destroying everything around us, including us. " Obedience not sacrifice" is needed to protect us. Sacrificing ourselves for someone who is consumed with themselves feeling they will "get it" that we love them and appreciate us again is a scary road that can lead to being a doormat if we let it go to far. As long as the focus of thier lives is on them, reguardless of the reason, they will continue to use people as thier provision from God, and think that those people can take what God can, and forget they are human too.

I have allways respected the discipline of those able to do what was right while enduring pain. Its mostly a guy thing I think when we talk about physical pain, but you cannot leave women out of that because they are accually built physically to endure more than men and still function, and then if you look at the examples of feats of strength and sacrifice women have performed, like the 40 something old women who picked a car up off her husband when it fell on him, ripping her back up and disclocating like 5 discs, you can see that women can muster amazing strength in the right situations.

But as a man, I allways looked at the determination that comes from our physical makeup,(muscles, testosrzone<sp>, and combative nature),mixed with our convictions on right and wrong, to be where our endurance and conviction to go to war and ignore as much pain as possible. In all conflicts, battles, or challanges, we are called to ignore the uncomfortable to the excruciating pain while facing obstacles that we believe need to be overcome.

At a young age I was faced with the obstacle of healing and making my Dad happy, because it was evident he was not, the same for my Mom, but she was not in the same place as my Dad. I just wanted to be a good son, a great son, one that made his family and God proud, but circumstances a little kid doesn't get confused me, and it became an obsession, that I thought was normal, a just cause, a test and way to rise above from above. I am not complaining, its just what it was, as a matter of fact I am glad I could see my Dads heart, and my Moms. I saw it as something I could do my part, or even more if nessesary, to help.

All I wanted was to be normal and/or better than that and have a happy family. In a disfunctional home described in Alanon,(Thought there was no drug abuse in my disfuntional home), they would describe my as having a hero complex as the child, needing to save his family. The other extreme is denial, I saw my sister fall into that. I could only attribute my peace orientated attitude to life to the spirituality of my mother. Her calm confidance and amazing heart of a servant for everyone gave me hope when all the fears I had as a youth were attacking me. It would have been better if it was my Dad who comforted me but like I said, he had problems, and one of them was his inability to come down to a childs level of understanding. I feel that something must have happened to him as a child, even though his parents and brother were so vastly different, I can't imagine.



So what the point? I was set up.. Maybe not on purpose but still set up because my Dads dreams of buying a house outwieghed his concern for his familys emotional welfare. He was right and the world was against him, and it even became his family when things did not go his way..Mom divorced Dad when I was 17 and he went off the deep end.

But this is a marraige site right? What has that to do with marraige? Set up?---- Familiar but unhealthy emotional habits...developed as a child.. understood intelectually..but still rooted in the heart, mind, and that whole life experience we call the soul. Like Pablovs dog, and the learned helplessness lesson, it was familiar to endure emotional abuse, and somehow call it sacrifice for God, as it was learned as a child.

Before I met my second wife, I knew it would take some time to do whatever work I needed to do on myself before I could trust myself in a new relationship. I had planned to get some phyche courses, sociology courses, and therapy while I was in colledge. My main interest was in law enforcement with the focus on really helping people. I had seen the damage people do when they were selfish and did not consider others.

But this women had something I did not recognize until later. We clicked in so many ways, she came from a severely extreme alcohol background but had also been the "hero" type. The one who was forced to save everybody being the first born.

But what I felt was a connection to someone with a familiar cause for people and understanding about the mind, discipline, and the importance of truth, was also a connection to someone who had that,"learned helplessness" thing, in her case it branched over into alcohol, and there again I thought I could help and it was possible because she was, by her testimony, born again, and completly healed, and she also knew the bible much better than I.


So what was my excuse for sleeping with her out of wedlock? Don't have one that is worth spit so ...But I am sure I had an excuse and I am sure I felt entitled somehow and did the throw my hands up in the air.."Oh well things will work out.." thing that is so common when you have lived in drama and do not do what you need to avoid it. Learned helplessness or hopelessness IDK but I allowed desparation in and fear of loss thats for certain.

In our emotions, to bring this all back to point, I think that both of us were the answer to some childhood dream each of us had, and that childhood dream was a lie.

If I had said to her "look you have a problem with drinking so if you go to AA about it maybe we can work out but if not its ok lets just be freinds.."

Or if she had said "You do not measure up to the standard of man that I respect like I do my Pastor, as a christian, do not believe as I do, do not believe someone can "backslide", so I will continue to drink until I decide I want to quit, or God moves me, and we should just be freinds"

Well that would have been the responsible intelligent adult and Godly choice for us, our children, and the areas of society and family that have been damaged by our getting together.

But the real point is..Trust in the disiplines no matter how it feels, because they can be trusted as they mold your character. The disiplines never change and thier benifets allways seem to profit us as they change us. Its scary sometimes when it seems dark, but we are allways changing anyways.

Then someday we can look back on the past and say. I was perfect for where I was at the time all things considered. Compared to now I was was dumb and foolish but my heart was where it was and doing what it felt was right at the time. My intentions were good, I loved passionatly, and I was taught to love even more deeply because I changed, I grew, I was broken and built up again into who I am today. Both the man I was then and am now are valuable and worthy of love, and life is for learning.

Nice. Very nice.

FWW and I were watching the movie Radio for the 157th time the other night. There is something about sports movies, or military movies, that always seem to resonate with men.

I didn't get it when I was a kid. My dad and his dang war movies... and John Wayne.

But, I get it. It's that action motivated by a dedication to something greater than self. It is, as you have stated CP, transcendence. Moving above and beyond the flesh of a man, and affecting something other than ourselves.

There was a part of me in conflict while watching that movie this last time. I watched, and I thought "What a damn fool, he's got a damaged relationship with his own child, and instead of fixing that, here he is putting all this time and effort into this person and not doing a thing about her..."

I have to admit to some selective memory, because I failed to remember what occurred later... the scene in the pickup truck where he admits his life's greatest shame - having seen a young boy about his age caged, filthy, and abused underneath the porch of a house on his paper route. About having never said anything to anyone that whole time, and never telling anyone until the moment he told his daughter.

More of us have these shames than we'd like to admit. Most of us would never risk the sacrifice involved in a situation like that - he risked his family, his job, his reputation to touch the life of one other person who needed someone's care more than anyone else he knew.

And, I still shake my head and think "What a fool..." I gambled on my own direct improvement to better things for my own family, and bet more than I had to pay.

Some days, that just SUCKS.

Argh.

I am having a hard time finding other, non-print resources which aren't geared towards single man-children...



(At least, pertaining to the flavor of the thread)

I did find an article which correlates with "Legacy" in the "Switches of Manliness" series. Found it funny, it was about how femininity is a birthright, whereas masculinity is earned, and has to be constantly validated.

And then... related articles either had to do with "macho men" or homosexuality.



So, that's it guys. We can either be cavemen, or girlfriends.

(I did, however, find an excellent writing on "Bromance")

Of course I am a fan of AoM, YANSS, aaaaaaaaaand, I have a few other sites I have yet to share that I frequent.

It is to be noted, that the author of AoM is Christian, but I happen to enjoy the site because this presence isn't overbearing into each and every subject broached.

Some of you who want a little more faith or biblical based discussion may find these two sites interesting, though;

http://www.truemanhood.com/

Er... nevermind. The second site is a program. It is linked from TM, and TM is run by the director of the program. Follow the yellow link road if you find your interest piqued.

Feel free to share anything you find that you find relevant!

This little exchange from Dodgeball was gut-bustingly funny, but at the same time... so damn true. A Peds Doc and I were riffing on it a few weeks ago.

It came to mind again today when I was reading about Marcus Luttrell;


Now, we could start off by saying that Navy Seals are a breed apart. Yet, they are still "just men." I had the pleasure of having a classmate in a former Seal who took discharge for PTSD - not because of the inhumanity of war, but because of his own humanity.

In one of his routine patrols during deployment, a young boy rushed the squad - this man, having been trained to act fast shot and killed the boy. That day, in his heart and mind, ended his military career. He had served 13 years in the US Navy before asking for his discharge. 7 years from retirement.

I cannot imagine the anguish he felt. He simply stated that it had left him broken, as he had a young son here at home the same age as the boy whose life he took.

He could have fallen into a bottle forever (and he did for a short time), yet he hit a point where he dusted himself off, and decided to try to give back. He is now a chemical dependency counselor at the drug and alcohol treatment center here in our valley.


"...I've been blown up, shot, and left for dead. And one thing I kept doing was I just kept getting back up and going after it. No matter what life throws at you, the one thing you gotta believe in, is you gotta believe in yourself." - Petty Officer Marcus Lattrel US Navy, retired - author of Lone Survivor



I�ve got a number on a napkin, a poundin in my head
Takes everything I�ve got to crawl out of bed
I lost a hell of a woman, freedom caught me on the chin
But I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.

The sun came up again this morning.
I got a call from a long lost friend.
Planned us a little road trip down to New Orleans.
It ain�t much but it beats where I�ve been.

Yea I�m doin alright,
I�m doin alright,
I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.

Well I�m gettin better at barely gettin by
When I look at her picture I don�t break down and cry.
And all this time on my hands it�s gettin easier to spend
Cause I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.

The sun came up again this morning,
I took my old fastback for a spin.
Now when it rains it ain�t always pouring
and I�m learning how to live again

Yea I�m doin alright,
I�m doin alright,
I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.

Yea I�m doin alright,
yes I�m doin alright,
yea I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.

Yes I�m doin alright,
yea I�m doin alright,
yea I�m doin alright for the shape I�m in.

Thank you HoldHerHand....I needed to see this today.

Hiya boys,

Me again! Could someone look in on Unhappybs over on SAA?

P.S. I have asked this several times now for different posters. Please let me know if I should stop, OK? NOT intended to add to your pain or add a burden at all, but rather I just know where your watering hole is. HHH, you own this thread, so you can tell me to stop the SOS's if I am intruding, as well as anyone else.

It's cool surfer.

I don't know if I "own" this. If I get hit by a milk truck tomorrow, I'd like to think the thread would live on!

>.<

I am glad you come here and ask personnally. Thats why we are here at the He-man Wimen Haters Club.. Lol

Seriuosly tho, Happy Fathers Day to all who have the priveledge of loving and protecting the innocent and vulnerable wherever you happen to be tonight. God Bless you.