MV, it is always good to hear from you.

You said something that bears examination:
it's impossible to move beyond the destruction without being led by your victim
and I am abashed to consider that you might be well justified in that statement.

Exchanging the words "very difficult" for "impossible", I think I would be forced to agree with your statement.

I have mentioned to one poster that bringing up the A just to stick WS's nose in the mess yet again is merely a form of emotional sadism. But, and as a FBH I suppose this will be heretical, at some point the FWS has to see that sticking one's own nose in it is nothing beyond emotional masochism.

It is self-defining that once all that can be done, has been done, there is no more to be done. Doing it (apologizing, regretting, JC'ing, redefining the ENs at play) over and over cannot be the program.

Rooting for you WPG. As someone who took a few years to start to come back from a real troubled place myself, I think you are doing well.

I have not read your whole thread, but from what I have I get the impression that your H is a thoughtful man. Maybe it is like that saying, "Still waters run deep".

Its not a mistake that he picked someone also as deep as he to marry. Hang in there.

Praying for you.

Some days I think I've reached that point, NG, where I feel like I've done all that can be done. I've tried to own up to it, I've offered JC, I've put EP's in place. I have tried to meet his needs and I've worked to eliminate my LBs. I can rail against the end of my M all I want, but in the end it's his choice.

But at the same time, I have to say I so feel what Mrs. V is saying. True remorse should include making amends to your victim. I'm in instructor mode tonight (sorry!) so it made me think of the concept of restitution in the justice system. Of course it's court-ordered in the CJ system, so not necessarily heart-felt, but restitution as it's goal is to make the victim whole again, as much as is possible. But one of the examples I use in class is suppose someone steals a bike from you. She can be ordered by the court to return that bike, and she does so...so you in effect are compensated for your material loss...however, the act of returning your bike does not make you feel safe and secure - your bike could easily be stolen again, you don't even have a guarantee that the same person won't come back and steal your bike!

SO, if the offender is truly remorseful, and wants to try to make their victim whole again, then they have to address not only the material losses, but also the immaterial losses as well. And therin lies the problem, b/c these losses can't be quantified. Just as the loss of a hand means different things to a speed skater or a brain surgeon or an artist.

When a marriage ends, the offender WS may be truly remorseful, but is no longer able to make amends to their victim. I feel like not only is it my responsibility to try to heal the damage I caused, but also for me, being able to help my H heal, and to heal our M would go a long way towards my own personal healing. I don't mean that to sound selfish, b/c my healing isn't the most important goal. I understand it is a consequence of my actions - I totally get it - but I've hurt someone I love, I've destroyed the union of two people joined together in the sight of God and our family, I've destroyed the safety and security of two innocent little girls, and more than anything I want to do whatever it takes to make it right. But if my victim won't allow that, then I can't - so the marriage - the family - will always be destroyed. That knowledge, that regret, will always be a part of me, no matter where life takes me in the future.

I can learn to accept the loss, but will always regret it.

As you surmised, CP, H is a thoughtful man. He's also very closed and guarded. He has always been that way to me, other than the first 4 months of recovery. As a matter of fact, I learned things about him then that I'd never known - this after knowing him for years. He said he was afraid that knowing some of his dark secrets would cause me to lose love for him, but it wasn't that way at all. I guess I was never able to help him feel safe enough to let down the walls he had, even with me. And then when he finally did, I sat there and lied to him while he opened himself to me. Small wonder he doesn't trust me or feel safe with me anymore. Throughout his life, the people he loved and trusted let him down. Including, finally, me.

Anyway, missing my babies (they were too engrossed with Spongebob to want to talk to me on the phone today, geez). FWIW, I left him that letter when I left on my trip today. He should get it tomorrow. No expectations.

Ok, then.

Roll this one around a bit ; how about putting down the "fight" response, and just "be."

Allow yourself the breathe and rest from this point forward to take your actions and interactions with your BH NOT as the "fight" to reclaim your marriage, but just who you have become.

You are no longer the wayward. You are the person who fully appreciates and understands that your actions affect others - specifically your spouse and your children.

When you step forward tomorrow, the next morning, Friday... next Wednesday, the second Tuesday of next December - each one of those days is a day that the thoughtless and selfish WPG who cheated on her H no longer exists.

And to be honest, she hasn't for quite some time. The final remnants of that creature shrunk and slunk away some months ago.

WHATEVER happens, WPG, YOU have succeeded in the single most important aspect of this whole thing; that you can only control your own actions, that you alone are responsible for your actions, and that your actions can effect people other than yourself.

If every poster here came to that realization, they would increase the rate and speed of recovery tenfold.

Agreed. "Impossible" is a bit dramatic. "Very difficult" is certainly appropriate.


Again, agreed. I find it difficult, though, to separate the self-flagellation from allowing my BH to gauge the recovery, if that makes sense. I'm sure some of it - the endless re-examination, etc. - is an exercise in exerting control over something that is, ultimately, beyond my control at this point. (EN-meeting, UA, yes, all valid points - but here, now, the decision will never be mine to make, and history will never be mine to undo.)

Sorry, WPG, I'm taking over your thread!

HHH, thank you for putting so succinctly that which I have struggled to express.

WPG, I think a while back we touched on the idea of "withdrawal" - whether it's protective, how it impacts recovery efforts, etc. - and I think HHH just articulated here the correct spin on that withdrawal. It's not withdrawing from recovery; rather, it's approaching recovery not as a tug-of-war, but just you and what you have to offer.

Maybe a small distinction to some, but a lightbulb moment re: articulation for me. Thanks, HHH.

yes WPG, it is his choice in the end (just like my situation). I remember a poster saying that we can choose our actions but not the consequences of them. I would like nothing more than recovery as do you.

I feel the same way as you too. EP's in place, working on boundaries and not LB. Trying to do just compensation.

The only thing to remember is what HHH said. We can only change and fix things within our control. We cannot control another person's actions, thoughts or feelings, we can indirectly influence them or persuade them.

As well, I remember listening to Dr. Harley say a spouse can pull the other spouse out of withdrawal. But it is easier to go uphill together instead of one person pulling the other. You can start things but a marriage takes two people and if the other person does not want to recover, there is nothing we can do about it. Sucks because we both want recovery, but neither one of our spouses are interested right now and may never be.

But even though we may have regrets and such. We have learned about our own weaknesses and strengths. We know what it takes to make a marriage work, how to protect our spouse and ourselves. Not the way anyone wants to learn but we just have to take what happens in life and make the best of it. I remember a quote from a news article, have the courage to live the life you are given not the one you planned.

Just keep working on yourself, and trying to meet his needs. That is all you can do.

Sometimes for some spouses, it is just too much for them to deal with the betrayal or they just do not want to try again for fear of being stabbed in the heart again (which is justified when they have been betrayed).

Just take it one day at a time and take care of yourself. Worry about things that you can control not the things you cannot.

you (as well as the rest of y'all!) are welcome here anytime, Mrs V!!!

I'm actually...OK. And ITA, it's not withdrawing from recovery, not at all. I'm not slamming the door on him. I'll still fill the ENs he allows me to meet. I'm here if he decides he wants to come home. I never set a "clock ticking" for how long I was willing to work - to really work - on restoring our M. As of today, it's been nearly 2 years (23 months) from the first DDay (EA) and a year and a half since DDay #2 (PA)...about a year since finding MB and applying it extremely ineptly at first...and 6 and a half months since he moved out.

I can't set a clock ticking b/c I can't convince myself that I haven't given my best effort for any extended period of time. Sure, I've done things, but I also tended to sabotage my own R b/c of the expectations I continued to have. It took me a loooong time to "get" that, and I still have to recognize when I am feeling hurt b/c of an unmet expectation and work to move around that.

People IRL think I'm an idiot for not just throwing up my hands, "turning the page," whatever. But they are only on the outside looking in. They don't know MB, they don't know H like I do. I believe in him, same as I did the day I married him. Yes, I was an idiot. I f-ed up. I became someone I never thought I'd be, and I despise that woman. I refuse to be that woman again.

At the end of this year, if he decides to file for D, it's his decision. I can't control that.

It doesn't mean it won't hurt, or that the pain stops, that the regret magically disappears. But yep, "history is not mine to undo."

During the trip I had to take this week for work, this came up in a presentation dealing with offender accountability. I was struck by how appropriate it is for the FWS, as well:

Sorry, WPG, but the last chapter does not reflect your true story.

Autobiography In Five Short Chapters

Chapter I

I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost... I am hopeless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

Chapter II

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in this same place.
But it isn't my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.

Chapter III

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it there.
I still fall in... it's a habit... but,
my eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.

Chapter IV

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

Chapter V

I walk down another street.
I come back with a shovel, some cement, and
fill in the hole so no one else falls in as I did.

Isn't that what you do here, every day?

Chapter Five:
I call the house of the guy who dug the hole and tell his wife everything. She tells him to stop digging holes or move out.
One less guy digging holes.

BTW I agree WPG, you are truly a freind to your brothers and sisters, helping to point out and remove stumbling blocks in the road. "It is wise to win souls" comes to mind. You have put the wisdom wrought through your pain to its most valuable use, Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

lol @ Reynolds...but truth be told, in an A, it's never just one person digging the hole. I wasn't a helpless victim who was taken advantage of. Yes, OM may have been a predator whom I suspect of having more A's...but that really doesn't matter - I was the one who allowed him to meet my EN's. I was the one who threw my boundaries to the ground.

I just wanted to thank you, NG, Mrs V, CP...I'll never stop regretting what I did, but if I can help someone else, if something I say makes someone realize they are headed down that same old street, if it helps someone else save their marriage, then I am glad for that.

H emailed me this morning and said he was thinking of finding an apartment close by. Getting a real apartment, signing a real lease, well, there's a lot more permanence to that than just living with his stepmom. I guess it's better that he be close for the kids' sake, and that they can have their own space. I brought it on myself but it still hurts like h377.

wulffpack girl,

what do you think your husband would really do if you simply said this is all you can do and that you must move on with your life if he is truly over the marriage and ready just to be co-parents only.
tell him it is all or it has to be nothing that this has gone on to long with no hope of things being any different than they are now.
wish him luck and tell him that you understand but that you have tried to make amends but you need more than this, that you have learned from your mistakes and will not make the same in your future whether that is being married to him or in another relationship.
Tell him you have tried but are worn down emotionally and need to move forward in your life and hopefulness........
you have done more than most and should be proud of your self awareness now....you have become a person that can now believe in who you are as a woman ........and as a person that lives life knowing the consequences of her actions...........
but there has to be more in life for you, a deeper connection that we all deserve...
I know you don't want to quit but you have to do what is best for you now so this doesn't destroy all the lessons you have learned and you don't become bitter and resentful.............
If he isn't in then let go...............
and find a life worthy of wuffpack girl.
jessi

(((WPG)))

I'm sorry.

Permanence? Only perceived!

It's an apartment, WPG. The guy needs a place to sleep, and can't always be hangin with mama.

Ok?

Don't let this idea of "permanence" infiltrate.

Besides, what does that matter to the new and improved WPG?

***Hugs***
I am sorry that you are hurting.
Still rooting for you and hoping that you will be completely happy one day no matter what happens!

Two weeks ago I made the following suggestion:


So, keeping to that paradigm, would you want to approach and commence said courtship dance with a man living on his own, or one living with step-mommy?

Look, right now he's still wandering, but in general terms he's wandering in your general vicinity. "Wander" into him at every opportunity. Get creative. Single guy + new apartment = glorious, heaven-sent opportunities for casual DS assistance. What the HELL does he know of drapes, floor wax, cooking utensils, laundry soap, cutlery, spice racks, etc, etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. (Ya know, I'm beginning to appreciate my wife more and more as I type this. Hang on a minute!)

Okay, I'm back! But you get the idea, right? Use every development as another rung in the ladder you're climbing to reach him.

WPG, I totally, TOTALLY understand where you're coming from. However, I actually took it as good news, at first, when I read your post about your H discussing an apartment nearby. As HHH noted, it's about perception, I guess.

That aside...Question: have you thought about just asking him to move back into the marital home?