My mediation date is in a week. Does anyone have any last minute advice for that?

- I've already asked my attorney to make it to where I do not have to be in the same room with stbx. She said she could arrange that.

- I have a proposal ready. I was hoping to send it to the dark side today, but it's a little delayed.

- I've already advised my attorney that I will not pay $350 an hour to argue with stbx during mediation, if it appears he's not going to be realistic. She told me she leaves if the other side doesn't respond reasonably anyway. I'll be right behind her.

Anything else?

God I don't know the laws in Fla, and even if I did, I am afraid Iv'e lost my cunning and guile I used to be able to pull up.

Did you get him for adultry? Does it matter in Fla?

For me I think you will have to rely on your Lawyer, and I hope she is ruthless.

Good luck and I hope you make out well MJ.

Mopey I remember your posts when we were both going through trying to save our marriages back in 2007/8. I just wanted to say that this comment of yours struck a huge chord for me. It was exactly this issue that made me realise that there was no hope for my marriage either. We were working with Jennifer and an issue came up that we disagreed on. He wanted to buy a house and I did not. She helped us POJA it and he immediately went off and did it anyway.

Can we save this thought somewhere where others can use it too?

I presume this is the financial settlement? I have some suggestions for you;

1. Set ground rules and give them to everyone at the beginning. Mine were no shouting and no interrupting. Make them anything you want including a time limit on each issue if you want. Say that you will immediately leave if there is a violation and that this will be the end of the process.

2. Set an agenda before you start to avoid burning up valuable time discussing who gets the toaster.

3. Consider binding arbitation rather than mediation. This will allow a document to be drawn up with no messing about. Then each of you can either sign it as is or not but if you do not both sign, the court makes the decisions. Usually the court is more favourable to the woman.

4. If you can, be in the same room as him. This will give you more control over the process.

Hi C.P.

Thanks for chiming in.



Fla. is a no fault state. However, adultery can have a bearing on alimony, if money was spent on an affair partner. I did print out an e-mail that stbx sent me, during our false recovery, listing all the women he cheated on me with, and I included it in the discovery documents. You realize the reality of the situation when you see your paralegal's eyes get big while reading such a document.

Basically, the judges do not care too much about why the marriage broke down. They'll basically be looking at who can afford to pay what, how long married, etc.



We shall see. She is concerned for me.



Thanks. I have no idea how it'll turn out. I have a strong suspicion that we'll have to let a judge decide our fate. Stbx was never one to poja with me. Why should this be any different?

Btw...I did catch up on some earlier replies from last week. I'm not expecting a response, I just wasn't sure if you knew that I replied to your posts that I missed.

Hope you're doing well today C.P. I forgot to mention in an earlier reply that I'm glad you have your son, and family around. Kids are great. I just had a great evening with mine.

Hi LiedToAgain,

Wow, good memory. I think I lost some of my memory in all of this. Those were some rough times for us. If your stbx wouldn't poja with you, I feel ya. I felt disrepected as a partner, and walked on.

I spent plenty of time in withdrawal when he wouldn't poja, the majority of poja being EP. He didn't keep his commitments when we did poja, or re-poja. Then he'd get upset that we weren't spending quality UA time together, due to my withdrawal, or he flat out didn't care that I was withdrawn.

When I'd finally muster up the gumption to go do something with him, the [censored] would tell me things like "I can't stand being around you". Thus the many trips to the attorney myself, that I never went through with. Boy, I'd give anything to go back and have a do-over. I'd lay out my boundaries and tell him to not let the door hit him in the [censored] on the way out after hearing his whinese the first time.

It took me four years to stop internalizing the affairs, learn about gaslighting, narcissim, sex addicts, get through some other crisis', boundaries, grow a backbone, learn what true intimacy is, learn about the relationship map, MB tools, and the REAL meaning behind poja.

Dr. Harley responded to an e-mail of mine last year regarding stbx's reluctance to use poja, especially when it comes to EPs. He said if stbx wasn't willing to poja, I could always count on my feelings being trampled on.



Wow, buying a house without your agreement. I'm sorry. I know that hurt.

I've been there too. Trust never came with all of my stbx's broken commitments, and sometimes cruel independent behavior, yet he wanted me to treat him like I did trust him. And when I sensed this in him, I can only imagine that when he looked at me I had the look of "seriously?" on my face. D.A.....




I'd like to think that BSs would read it somewhere, and it'd click with them. The heartache they could save if they knew this, and had boundaries around it. BSs have a fog all their own. I was where I was, at the time.

If anyone wants to share that information that I learned through the hard knocks, feel free. I'll add it in my sig line in the hopes that someone will read it. I also added that conclusion on a false recovery thread in the recovery forum.

Good to hear from you again L.T.a. I'm glad you were able to see the breakdown of a relationship due to poja. Now you know what to look for in other relationships.

(((hugs)))

Yes, the mediation is for a financial settlement. And thanks for the suggestions.


Since stbx and I will not be in the same room for the mediation, I don't have to worry too much about some of that. However, I do like the idea of limiting time on different issues.



I love this idea. I will do this.



I looked into arbitration. It seemed like a good concept, except that I read somewhere that you HAVE TO end up signing a settlement, and are not allowed to go elsewhere if you're frustrated with who you hired. It was also expensive. I've been doing a lot of ground work myself. Some of the same things that thier consultants would charge us for. Plus, I hired a divorce financial planner to help me come up with a settlement, so I feel confident about my plan. If he doesn't like it, we'll see if the judge does, or doesn't.




The plan is to not be in the room with him. How do you think it'd give me more control if we were in the same room?

This is interesting...the lack of POJAing... I never thought of it as a marker for a doomed relationship... possibly one that needs alot of work- doomed I guess if the other is not willing at all to ever ever POJA then I could see it... but I think there are some things I will not POJA...like being ok with my stxh spending lunches and coffee breaks with the POW... it wasnt something I could POJA... it was a deal breaker because he wasnt willing to stop...could I have POJA'ed that really?

I suppose it does get blurry. I'm inclined to call dealbreakers "boundaries", and I should have included that in my conclusion as well.

In my particular case, I was willing to poja co-ed AA mtgs. We once had a poja on that. If he wanted to go to one, I went with him. In the past, right after we found MB and before his "individual" counseling, he wanted me to go some meetings with him. I had been to them before. I think it became a problem when he started hiding stuff from me again. He never had a sponsor either, if that gives you a clue.

But I finally realized that poja can cover a multitude of things, including EPs. I told stbx that opposite sex friendships would have to include me, and we'd poja the circumstances as they came up. Otherwise, he'd be a hermit. Although being a hermit wouldn't be such a bad idea for someone like him. Oh wait, I take that back. He's had affairs on the internet while being a hermit.

Seems to me no POJA and more importantly, lack of Enthusiastic POJA would be a no brainer Red flag to false recovery.

Yes maybe at first it might be expected, but with radical honesty I would think people would hit a wall where they would have to work with POJA and be enthusiastic about it. Nobody is going to say.."I am enthusiastic about about our agreement that that you can share our most personal details at lunch with.." or even any of that tripe. lol.

Once dedicated to recovery, the lines should be drawn to what a healthy marriage relationsip is right? None of the crap should be allowed that couse the problems in the first place.

A pastor once mentioned that before marriage you should be able to openly discuss anything or any topic with your spouse to be, and I assumed he meant anything, because he even mentioned sex. Cmon we are talking adults right? Lol. He said "IF the TV gets between me and you and our marriage I will throw in out in the yard", his wife said ,"and I will help ya" I think thats is a healthy and passionate attitude.

Before marraige is the time to discuss anything and in recovery it is most important, having been in a false one and letting things go expecting the same miracles that I expected before to cure the problems that cursed us the first time around. Its a shame to have come so close to indentifieing the lies and dealing with them, only to have them come back even stronger than before.

I think there is something to be said there MJ, but I will have to study this a little bit more to be sure, because you seemed to have balked a little on a subject I really beleive in also when you can't POJA in recovery. You would think that its pedal to the metal and down and dirty at that point

But carry on.

Its gotta be hard with the money thing, it allways is, Hugs to you too (Dont those little guys look so cute, like a little Scmoopee)

Hang in sis

I saw your replys MJ, and as usual they were awesome and sensitive. you rock

If I missed something please feel free to 2x4 me, I can take it
God bless

This is a very individual thing. My exH was emotionally abusive. I was NOT in the same room with him for mediation and did not want to be. Just being around him raised my stress levels and I might have agreed to stupid stuff just to get away from him.

Thank you for sharing that Kirby. I've had those same exact thoughts. After reading your comment, I sat for a few minutes to see if there was something more about this that I haven't figured out. I was wondering if I was cowering. But that doesn't seem right to me either, since I've/we've had some serious kahunas to attempt recovery with such untrustworthy and risky individuals.

So, I just gave it a little more thougt, and it's basically the same as you stated. I don't want to be in the same room with him. Stbx has disrepected, neglected, and carelessly hurt me so much/aka emotional abuse, that it would be like sitting across the table from a sociopathic rapist that traumatized me repeatedly, with no remorse. Just someone with empty words, and a bottomless ego, who doesn't care if I live or die. Who would want to negotiate with such a person, or even make eye contact with them?

I don't believe you missed a thing. Even if you did, you're so humble I would never 2x4 you.

Would someone please hold my hair back for me while I barf?

WHY do some men believe that they are doing a "good" thing by being "better" in their next relationships, because they screwed up so badly in their prior relationship?

I just had the unfortunate pleasure of talking with my exhusband, my children's biological father. After not hearing from my daughter for a week after leaving her a few messages, he called me four times. I was away from my phone and had not even realized he called. He called my son to find out what was going on, supposedly out of concern. Told my son he was on his way to house and showed up 10 mins later.

I talked to him on the front porch for a few minutes. I let him know that I had no intention of co-parenting with him. In that time frame, he told me how sorry he was for his immaturity in dealing with our situation way back when. He told me that because he felt so bad about how he treated us, the kids and I, that he HAD to do right by his "new" family. He tried to tell me that the kids and I "made him a better man". WTH? I don't understand how they can fool themselves into thinking that they are better men because they left wreckage behind, and made amends to SOMEONE ELSE. What is up with that?

I hear on good authority that my stbx is making "amends" if you will, with his new adultery admiration giver. I'm sure that's easy to do since he wasn't the one to hurt her, yet.

I don't see them as better men. I see them as cowards who aren't men enough to become better men, where and when it counts. They run away and start over.

I told my XWH (1rst H) that I had no respect for what he was telling me. If he wanted to "start over" and make up for what he did to his original family, he should have made it up to his original family. a long time ago. It's like robbing a bank on 3rd street, and giving the money back to a different bank of 5th street. Does that seem logical? Why are people so dense?

Btw...XWH hasn't changed a bit. He's still chasing admiration and approval without doing what it takes to actually earn it. Honestly, I never expected anything different from him. Too bad I was right.

I have your hair MJ. Go ahead, I've got a cool washcloth too.

Only fair to warn you I'm what I call a 'ricochet puker'. All it takes is for me to hear someone gagging, and on cue, I Was a sad day the day my dd at 18 months old and I got into a debate.

Every time I think my stbxh does something over the top, you top it with something else! I'd probably try to deck the stbxh or the xh if either of them had the gall to say something like that to me. I can hear it now: "Since I screwed around on you so much I have made myself a better man by being faithful this time around". Yep, I'd probably try deck time.

As it is, I've been having some pretty vivid dreams of knocking my stbxh out cold. Almost scary. I highly doubt I could physically do so, but I supposed if I got mad enough.....

Worse part is in one dream, that keeps repeating, we were in the court room. YIKES. Best part of that dream was the 'ABOUT TIME GIRLFRIEND' from the Judge. Double YIKES! Ya gotta love dreams like these. Anyone want to explain that dream?

MJ, this one should go into the Wayward Hall of Flame. Wow.

Tell me about it. Seriously, now having been married to two narcissistic waywards, I think I may have enough to fill my own fogese thread.

Thanks NSZ.



Me too! Lol....



I sure can pick 'em, can't I?



I didn't deck him, but I did feel myself getting angry as the words were coming out of his mouth, while at the same time in utter disbelief. I'm so way past over him, he doesn't affect me to the level of wanting to smack some sense into him. Not worth my time or energy.




I can almost 100% guarantee you this is what my stbx is saying to his ADULTERY partner right now. Stbx has also told me he was reading his new age crap to "become a better man". I find his ACTIONS are very much opposite of that, so he's just as delusional. Now him, I'd like to deck.





Lol....Sounds to me like it's about time justice was served, and you know it so well your subconscience mind dreams about it.

Thanks for the lovely hug. I learned so much during that bad year mostly from the amazing vets on this board. I feel I am a completely different person now, really happy to be out of the BS fog. That gaslighting was incredibly powerful stuff. I find it hard to remember now how much it all hurt.