I agree. Don't let this oppty pass! It doesn't have to be heavy. Just say "if things are getting cramped at MIL, why not come stay with us? The girls and I would be thrilled". A relaxed attitude and friendly smile would be key...

WPG - I find myself wrapped up in your thread because I feel I walk in your shoes daily. Although I am the BS, I long to save my marriage and find great pain in the failure of it.

My guilt and willpower is driven by my Pre-A mistakes. I wrap myself around the what if's and should have, could have, would have thoughts.

I like you just want one more chance to make it right. Yes my WH committed infidelity, and yes he is still wayward today, but it doesn't change my feelings and my need to want to make it right.

Like you - I have not given up, but I handed it completely over to GOD. I can no longer work to save this marriage. It is truly in my WH hands and he seems to be done.

Of course he is done for all the wrong reasons (doesn't want accontability, easier to blame me, feels betrayed by exposure, etc.)

I read your threads and feel as if I can walk in your empathy. I can move along with you and feel your pain.

The loss of a family for me is the greatest travesty in the universe. There is nothing more precious than family.

Keep posting and keep it real. I love how you share and I feel with you the growth you experience.

Tough~

Well, I did ask him about moving home...or I suggested it, at least. I started a conversation about him looking at apartments, and he talked about the ones he'd looked at. After he talked about some of the reviews he'd read online, I said that there was another option, he could move home. There was plenty of space, we could save money, we could do some things around the house in case we decided to sell. And that the girls and I would love it if he lived w/us. I basically told him that no one needed to know he moved home, if he still wanted a D at the end of this year (in our state you have to live "separate and apart" for one year). I didn't beg, didn't plead, just threw the idea out there.

He didn't say anything. I'd already told him in the letter that I left him that I wanted him to move home, but that I understood why he did not want to. He knows that I'm willing and that I still want reconciliation, even though I told him that I realized that it was his choice, and I couldn't force him into anything.

NG, it's funny you talking about how him in an apartment would be opportunities for DS - he was the chef in our house. I've got cooking appliances here that I have no idea how to use! I see your point, but don't know how many opportunities I'd have. If I had opportunities, I'd use them, just like I do now. If he had his own place, and the kids had their own space there, I'd probably see him less than I do now. And there he'd be, single, attractive guy on his own, two cute kids that women would see he's a wonderful dad with...chances are he probably wouldn't be lonely for long. And really, as much as it would hurt me, I just want him to find happiness. I love him and I don't want him to be miserable.

Tough, thank you...I read your sitch and I feel for you too. I don't think anything can compare to the strength you - and other BS's, too - have shown in the face of all your WH has put you through. I envy your faith. I've had such a hard time giving it to God...my faith is just not very strong right now. It's not that I don't feel forgiven, I think I've made my peace with that. I don't really know how to explain it. I realize the necessity of giving it to God, as I certainly can't "fix" anything. But God can't make H do anything either. God's not a "magic wand" that can fix my M. I don't want to get sidetracked on a religious discussion; my faith is something I have to deal with. Suffice to say that I've gone from praying over H and my M and family morning, noon and night, to the point where I sat in church this morning and realized my heart is just empty. Logically I know it's not God's "fault," we're certainly not guaranteed an easy ride through life because of our beliefs...I think even Paul prayed for God to remove the "thorn in his flesh," and God did not. And besides, I'm the one who stomped on my "thorn" in the first place. I have a hard time looking past my own discouragement and finding faith most days.

I still catch myself questioning everything (Why did H do this? Why did he say that? etc etc) and have to force myself to stop or I feel myself spinning like a hamster on a wheel. Today was just bad for some reason. I don't know why, but I've been down all day and had a lot of anxiety. Had to work this evening (which stunk in and of itself) but I was later than I thought, and I did text H (who was with the girls) as soon as class got finished, but by the time I got home they were already mostly done w/dinner and he left pretty quickly after that. Probably a triggery sort of day for both of us.

I know he was bothered by the fact that a lot of communication during the A took place during work, and I've tried to make my work as transparent as I can. If quitting my job would bring him home I'd do it in a heartbeat. As it is, with him gone I've had to line up PT teaching work again to bring in some extra money. I don't know what else to do. We've had a couple of very tight months, we've got a lot of revolving debt to deal with, and if he gets an apartment it will be worse money-wise. I'm already resigning myself to probably selling the house and trying to find something smaller and more affordable if we D, but in this market (and with all that needs to be done to our house) it could take some time. With it being nearly 7 months he's been gone, and now talking about apartments, I feel like I have to start trying to make my own back-up plan...or is that the wrong thing to do? I feel like whatever I do will make the situation worse, but then again, it is what it is. He's gone, and he shows no intention of wanting to come back for keeps.

You have to move on with your own life and a life for the girls, that is okay to do.
If he wants to fit in then great if he doesn't then that is his choice, you can't wait and be in limbo forever.
I am glad you made it clear to him that you still want things in the marriage to work out, you tried and that is all you can do with no regrets, that is the key here, don't live your life with regret, start fixing the house up, start looking for a smaller place and get yourself a new plan, one that makes you happy.......you deserve it.........
I think he has had long enough it is time for him to get off the fence and either get back in the relationship or move on...........
the girls will be fine with any situation as long as you both love them.
maybe if you weren't in the picture he would have to really miss seeing you and being with you.......just a thought.......
What if he saw you moving on would it scare him into getting off that fence?
I know you are losing hope but not in life I hope or you.......
there is life out there for you, you have to plan and get it, don't wait around for someone else to make you happy, you do it for yourself...........I wish I could wave a magic wand.........
jessi
jessi

, WPG.

Big, BIG kudos to you for broaching the topic of your H moving home. That's HUGE! Even if he doesn't take you up on the offer, I think it says loads about your recovery that you even asked.

I understand your hesitation re: a back-up plan. Early on after D-day, (and to some extent now, when DH and I discuss my return to medical school), DH brought this idea up quite frequently -- what was I going to do when he left the relationship? Where would I live, how would I provide for myself and my responsibilities for the kids, etc.

My approach to this has been essentially the standard one fed to the WS: "I don't do divorce." Instead of planning for a dissolution of the relationship with my DH, I work on the M, EN-meeting, and my side of the street.

You know, this reminds me of a secondary aspect of my refusal to compose a back-up plan. DH had advised something like this re: a back-up plan once before: during my A, prior to D-day, when I was behaving utterly miserably to him. In the course of discussion about how our M was having problems, how it was getting bad, he mentioned that maybe I should start thinking about moving to my own place. (Funny, now that I try to recall the details, I can't summon them. It's nice, but I don't want to recall this incorrectly and paint my DH in a bad light. I'll go w/ the general sense from that time...)

And you know what? I did. I started looking up apartments I could feasibly move to. Because he suggested it, right? I mean, things were getting bad, he had a point, and maybe that was just the best solution...

That is just one (of many) things I regret from that time. Because you know what it said to him? That I wanted to leave. That he and the marriage were not first. And I can't take those thoughts or feelings back from him - they are there and I can't undo them. Moreover, it reinforced my A-driven waywardness, and we all know a WS doesn't need any of that!

Sorry, this is getting long. I know you're not me. I know my situation colors everything. But, for me, I absolutely won't consider a back-up plan of any sort now. No planning "just in case," nothing. If he leaves, then that's the time I'll figure it out. Until then, my energies and thoughts are focused solely on my marriage and what I can do for it, for my DH, and for my family.

I'm sure that's not the most practical way of looking at this, and it may not be an option for everyone. But I made the mistake of starting down the back-up plan road before, and not one good thing came of it.

So...yeah. I'm so good at using a lot of words without saying a whole lot constructive, aren't I? Hopefully at least the helps!

What strikes me deeply WPG is the depth of remorse, and from how you described your H, that he is a man with deep emotions

When I finally gave up on my W because of her own brand of betrayal, it was six months before I even entertained seeing someone else, and it was because I wanted to stop loving my wife, it hurt to much

But let's just say, that in two years time, I was back to ground zero, and looking for a way to come back to where I should have been all along, with a plan of healing and recovery

Just based on your character, I don't think he will be able to forget you that easily. Not if he has an ounce of mercy and forgiveness

If you love him, he must have those qualities

I will pray for you, that you two can have a full recovery, and he is still healing from his wounds and does not do something like I did, which was to make things worse by attempting to get another relationship to forget

It's not what he needs to feel better, no matter how much he hurts and I wish I could tell him that, because I understand

Keep the faith girl and don't give up

Thanks, jessi, Mrs V, CP - I don't want to give up. I don't. But I think it's time for me to start figuring out what my life will look like without him. I won't dictate how much time he needs to heal - I was so impatient in our initial R and I was awful...it took me time to really "get it" and I know healing takes as long as it takes...but I have no idea what his intentions are, other than D, and now that he's started this apartment talk, well, probably time for me to wake up and smell the coffee.

I do believe he has the capacity for mercy and forgiveness in him, but perhaps not for this. Not every BS is capable of forgiving. Not for adultery. Not for the dishonesty. I understand, and I don't blame him. It's me who has to answer to breaking up our home.

If he came home, I could not live in a loveless M, where my needs weren't met and where I could never earn forgiveness. Our M needed MB years ago. We did some things right, but we also did many more things wrong. Both of us. I've seen how things can be, and that's what I keep wanting. I don't want our pre-A M, I want a passionate, romantic M. I want to have my needs met, and I want to be able to meet my H's needs. I've learned so much. Just seems a shame to have learned it now, when it's too late for H and me.

He told me once, back probably last May or so, when we were out of town: "I think you're going to have to let me go." And I told him that I wouldn't, I couldn't. Have I tried to hold onto him against his will? Sometimes I think so. I can't force him to love me now, anymore than I could have forced him to marry me all those years ago. I told him as much in the letter I left him (I'd post it, but it's like 4 pages long, prolific writer that I am, lol). Everybody's been telling me to be O&H, and I felt safer writing it all down. I told him how fear holds me back, that I'm afraid to do something that will make things worse, so I walk on eggshells. I don't tell him when things hurt me or when my needs aren't being met. I told him how worthless I feel sometimes, and how I don't speak up because I feel like I deserve his contempt. And I told him how the NSA SF makes me feel, and that I didn't want to be his wh*re, I wanted to be his wife.

I'm assuming he read all that - he didn't say anything, but the letter was not where I left it. The only thing he did was ask for SF when I got back from my trip.

The SF has been such an issue for me, y'all know that, it's been on this thread and addressed by the good Dr himself. I enjoy SF with him, and I told him, that being with him feels so right, that I feel like I've come home and everything is right in the world...but that I can't forget how he told me that it means nothing to him now, that it was "just to fill a need." In my heart of hearts, I can't truly believe it means anything different to him now b/c he has not told me anything different.

I wonder if the SF is keeping me too attached to be objective about the sitch. But my fear is that it is the only thing keeping him somewhat attached to me. I can't resist him. I have tried. I can't. The only time I ever rejected him was when I was wayward. I want his affection so badly and SF is the only way I can get that from him now. And yet, he now knows - if he read my letter - how it makes me feel, like I'm garbage, like I'm only good to be used for that one thing. The temptation to begin assuming things from that point is too great, so I'll just stop right there.

CP, I hear ya - another relationship won't heal either of us, certainly not an RA and even after D, both of us have to heal ourselves first. I wish we could help each other to heal, but you have to allow someone to minister to your hurts. You have to let them in. He has not let me in for a long time, and for me finally writing that letter and asking him to move home was the first time I've really took the risk of opening up to him in a while. If our M ends, then we'll both have to heal on our own.

Quick and simple; have you ever thought about the fact that maybe he comes to you for SF because he can't resist you?

In a ONS and "hookup" culture, where some "easy tail" would be no challenge, he'd rather have you.

Think about that.

Hey WPG,

Thanks for your response on my thread.

I do not have much advice.

I do not think you should give up yet. Your husband has not filed for divorce or asked for one. He wanted a separation, so that is something. He has been spending time with you.

Yes, he is looking for an apartment of his own. But it is closer to your home. Which means there is potential to see him more often or for him to drop by or for you to drop by.

I think it is a good idea to plan for the future, a life without him just so you are prepared. But that is just me, I like to be prepared for the best and worst outcome. I do not like uncertainty.

And HHH has a point, he could have just gotten SF from someone else. But he has not. Maybe it does not mean the same thing to him as to you, but it is something that he still wants something from you.

Your situation and mine are similar and I feel we understand each other. The only thing that is different is that my husband has chosen to go down a path I cannot join him in.

If your H is anything like mine, after all the hurt and broken trust. He does not want to share his thoughts and feelings until he believes it is safe to do so. It could even be the case he is just not sure or does not want to deal with things at the moment.

You are also correct in that you do not deserve a loveless marriage, that does not do your H or yourself any good.

I do wish you the best and for your girls.

But at this point in time, look on the bright side, your H has not filed for divorce. He has not started seeing other people or getting SF from other people. He is moving closer to you.

Just keep working on personal recovery and maybe one day your H will join you on the road to martial recovery.

Just to think out loud; if I were to leave NGB, I wouldn't come back to her for anything, and especially not SF. I would cut off the ties as if I were removing a cancerous limb.

WPG, could you do me a favor and do one of two things?

1)If you believe you have a current handle on it, could you provide the "Top Five ENs" for your husband, or
2)If you have doubts about the veracity of what list you might have from the past, do you think he might complete another questionnaire?

I'm trying to "map" where he might be against what an FBH might be feeling (looking for? needing?) given your situation.

You admit to not being big on DS (no cooking). SF seems "murky", between your needs and his, and is a "danger zone" for you anyway. I get a sense of strong FC, given his laudable affection for your children. With his "unfixed" habitation situation right now, I would recommend the equivalent of a serious Plan A campaign, but can't tell you which bullets to load.

NG, I think I like that course of action. What say you, WPG?

Launch a serious Plan A right now, (though totally in the light, casual, pressure-free way in which you tossed out to him the idea of him moving home).

Give it one last shot.

If at the end of it (Some predetermined time? Don't know...) you are at the same place you find yourself now (i.e., unable to go on), then start thinking on what your next steps will be re: the relationship.



From this side of things, it seems like there is quite a bit about which to be hopeful. I want you guys to be that success story.

Real quick b/c I am running late this morning and I'll come back later (work is nuts - I'm running a school right now and have been tied up in the classroom)

H & I did the ENQ's last June, when we first found MB but before either of us started posting here. His ranking:

1 - O&H
2 - AD
3 - FC
4 - DS
5 - FS
6 - AF
7 - SF
8 - AS
9 - RC
10 - C

His evaluations were confusing to me - AF, SF, C, RC and DS were listed as "moderate needs" and AD, AS, FS, FC and O&H were listed as "great needs." Again, this was prior to really getting into MB, and a lot of what he selected under the "My spouse is" question were answers like "My spouse is attractive to me, but I do not like the way she achieves it." The only items he was "satisfied" with to any degree were AS, FS, DS (although this was rated lower). Really, he rated me as positive on very little. Anyway, it hurt at first but I understood later he was giving me a "road map" to follow.

I'll come back later and post about the ways I've tried to meet his needs. I had 2 coaching sessions with JC last fall and she had guided me into doing a Plan A, which I freely admit to struggling with at times due to inability to let go of expectations, but I have worked very hard at meeting EN's and avoiding LB's since then. My Plan A pretty much has no stick, though, since he is not having an A, and Dr. H advised against Plan B b/c he saw it as punishing the BS for not engaging in recovery - although JC did mention Plan B as an option that she could coach me through.

Anyway, I'm late - I'll be back later!

OK - so part deux of my post. Warning: novel ahead!!! Skip to the NEXT POST for my questions!

Back to my Plan A efforts - I tried very hard to meet all 10 needs. I worked on changing things that H had been dissatisfied with. For example, DS. H used to do all the cooking for evening meals. I used to leave the house in a mess in the mornings after breakfast. I made sure he had a clean kitchen for when he got home to start dinner and I still continue to do that whether he's there or not. He's just recently started coming over and cooking again when he has the kids. After he moved out, I had to pick up cooking dinner most nights and I started inviting him to eat with us on days I knew he'd be by (like dropping off/picking up the girls). Since my work keeps me later than his I've learned to rely a lot on the crock pot or meals that all he has to do are stick in the oven. I even took our recipe file and typed all the recipes on index cards and made a neat little box to keep them in so they are organized and easier to find. When he lived at home I was mostly responsible for chores inside the house (like laundry) and he took care of the outside stuff. I have to say I loved it when during very early recovery, he helped with the laundry - small thing, but with working FT and 2 kids we had a lot of laundry! I've learned how to mow the grass, drive the tractor, and have even tackled some small landscaping projects since he's moved out. Since he's come around more, he's started doing some things outside but I still mow and work on my projects when I have time & energy.

I feel like I am doing a good job on FS but would definitely appreciate his help on things. I still work FT and bring home a paycheck. Pre-A, I was responsible for managing all the finances, paying bills, etc. During initial R, we sat down together and worked on things. He was great at it - created a spreadsheet to track monthly bills and tracking how we were paying down debt. His involvement lessened gradually over the last year until I was handling it all again, although I tried to keep him involved and would ask questions/seek input. Now I'm managing everything except for the money he withdraws from each paycheck to put into his own account and pay his car payment (and who knows what else). All our other accounts are still joint. Finances have been a struggle since he moved out, partly b/c I don't have help from him and with 2 separate lives we simply have less money. But I still manage everything as best as I can.

I'm very affectionate, always have been, but pre-A my attempts to express affection weren't always met well. I've tried different ways to meet AF post-A, from love letters to gifts. Me, I crave affectionate touch, but H never seemed to enjoy that pre-A to the point he would physically push me away, even if it meant pushing me off the couch and then laughing at me. He did in initial R, and we were pretty touchy-feely with each other. He is to the point now where he'll tolerate me being close to him, but will not initiate or reciprocate. When he moved out I bombarded him with romantic cards, gifts, and letters. I still buy him things, even if just a box of his favorite candy, but no sappiness anymore.

C is hard to meet when the other party ignores you and won't respond. He told me he hated hearing me talk about work, so I avoided that and tried to find other topics of conversation, things that interest him, like cooking, or a show on TV, etc.

RC - we were doing lots of stuff together in initial R. But then by the time he did the ENQ, I got "We always seem to do things she likes." I thought he enjoyed what we'd been doing, taking short trips, hiking, bike riding, he'd started running with me. That's an O&H issue as he never told me he didn't like anything, and if he suggested something I would most likely agree.

SF - The only time I have ever rejected him sexually was when I was wayward, and even then it was not often. Pre-A we did not have SF often, sometimes once a month or even once every couple of months. If I initiated, I was normally rejected, so I waited for him to initiate. That's pretty much the same now, although he initiates more frequently, but when I try to indicate my willingness I get ignored. We did (and still do occasionally) try some new things post-A that he & I had never done, and that I'd never done w/anyone else. If he asks for SF, I'm an ethusiastic participant.

AS - I did gain some weight after he left, but since I immediately had lost about 10 pounds in the first couple of months I'm probably 5 pounds up from where I was, which is smaller than I was when we were married and about 45 pounds down from my heaviest (I'm 5'8 and weigh 150). I could be in better shape but I am more critical about my appearance than he is. I have kept the standard advice to look nice, smell nice, when I see him and wear more things that accentuate the body parts he has said he likes.

OK - and what I feel are the biggies for him:

O&H - Obviously critical to a BS after an A. I did trickle-truth him for 4 months. I stumbled often early on between how many details to reveal and still being selfish and trying to protect myself. I would write him accounts that sometimes he'd reject as not detailed enough; we sat down and went through cell phone bills, financial statements together and mapped out when contact occurred. Some things I just couldn't remember - why had I called OM on my cell phone on such-and-such day for 5 minutes? I honestly couldn't remember. I have told him the truth about the # of times contact occurred and when contact ended. I had just gotten in the habit of lying and kept back details even after he found out it was a PA. I ended up taking a poly last fall which he still questioned, even though it proved I had not been lying about the # of times I had sex with POSOM, he had not been in our home, and contact had ended. The only question that raised any flags was about contact occurring while H was out of town. The examiner re-asked the question clarifying was there any physical contact, as POSOM and I had actually talked about and tried to plan encounters during those times and we'd ended up video chatting instead. I passed. I gave H all passwords, I turned in my work cell phone (which he couldn't view the bill), and I kept him abreast of my schedule. Still do, if I have to travel or like this week I'm teaching, I sent him the class schedule so he can see when I am in the classroom. I'll send emails from work so he will get the same email as I get or send as far as schedule. The O&H issue I struggled most with was times where I was O&H about my feelings(before he left) and I'd get an angry response. So I still struggle with being O&H about my feelings now, but the letter I left him last week detailed all of that.

AD - I refrain from criticizing him(I was the queen of the AO and DJ pre-A). I express appreciation when he does things, and I try to compliment him often, whether it's his cooking, something he does in the yard, whatever. I solicit his opinion and advice. Sometimes he responds, sometimes not! I did the Respect Dare which was helpful for me in understanding the difference between affection and admiration.

FC - He was the one home with the girls in the afternoons and helped them with their homework. He does that still on the days he picks them up. My parents help them on the other days when I am working, and I generally have to help them finish up things my folks can't figure out. We didn't do as much as a family as we could have. It's been hard for me to plan outings with the girls now b/c I never know if he's going to have the girls on the weekend or if he will be at our house - if he's at the house, then I'd rather us all be there together. I take the girls to church on Sundays (he stopped going, although I admit I also don't go anymore unless I have the kids with me). Since he moved out I planned 2 trips with them while they were out of school, one earlier in the spring he didn't go on and the mountain trip a few weeks ago that he met us up there. I try to do little things with them even if it's just taking them to get ice cream, reading a bedtime story, and if I am off work and we're home together I try to do fun things like eat lunch outside or make crafts, whatever, but have to admit once it gets beyond daily child care we don't do a lot of outside the home activities as a family.

The other part of Plan A is avoiding LB's and I've worked very hard to eliminate those, to stop things that I learned irritated H, to stop the AO's and DJ's. I know dishonesty can be a LB and I know I've been dishonest about my feelings out of fear. I don't like to tell him if he's LB'ing me b/c I am afraid of his response, plus JC had coached to be cautious about bringing his LBs to his attention since he was not on board yet with MB, so I felt like I walked a thin line that I fell off off from time to time and stepped in...well, poo. Like when he ignored my b-day last year. That hurt. And I did not react well at all, I tried to hold it in but then got snarky and no amount of apologizing could help it.

I guess what I'm wondering, is have I done a good job at Plan A already? Have I not been doing a Plan A? What do I need to do differently?

And I get HHH's point too - why on earth would he still want to have SF with me, spend any time at all w/me, since he has flat out told me that I make him sick? I had been initially hopeful about all of that, but as time wears on and he makes no efforts to meet my top 3 EN's, even though he knows what they are (AF, AD, C) I am just getting worn down.

Although I'd have to say that O&H has probably risen much higher in my list than last June, b/c I do not feel he is O&H with me about anything, certainly not his daily activities, schedule, future plans, thoughts and feelings. He was even more withdrawn than usual yesterday and I know it's b/c I am working later due to the school going on and he's remembering the past, but I still text him and respond to his texts, and he has my schedule. I tried asking him a couple of times if he had something on his mind but didn't want to push.

WPG - Let me just throw this out there.

Was your husband a renter in the marriage? If yes, he may not have left that renter mindset and is just waiting until something better comes along.

I know my WH has this mindset. I believe today he went from renter to freeloader because OW allows that environment for him. She doesn't hold him up to a buyer or even a renter standard.

My WH lessoned himself emotionally because he is trying to make it work with OW.

You may have grown enough to be at the buyer emotional state but your BS is at the renter level today.

Until he wants to join you to be a buyer you may have to go into a modified Plan B.

You deserve someone at your same emotional level that can grow with you. As long as he stays at renter you cannot grow with each other and your marriage will be set-up for more infidelity.

Just my thought!

Him telling you that you make him sick had a purpose, to chase you away. He wanted to chase you away.

Why?



But there is hope, as you have come around to something... and you are almost to the right spot;



And when you get there, make sure you leave the door open.

have I done a good job at Plan A already? Have I not been doing a Plan A? What do I need to do differently?

It matters not at all what we think, WPG. What is important is that you have consciously done, and continue doing, what you could to address his ENs. I said before on your thread, "When everything that can be done, has been done, there is no more to do."

You're not yet at deperation time. You should keep being there for him, and make it plain the the "new" WPG he sees is the "only" WPG that will exist.

Another question that I have no right to ask, but you sure as heck ought to know is, "WHY?" In other words, what ENs were you sourcing with another? Knowing what they were, and how you and he together might develop a plan to keep them internal to your union, might give him some feeling of control. If he is as intent on operating with complete O&H as you portrayed, this discussion might be.....manageable.

Tough, I think we were BOTH renters in our M. Me, personally, I very clearly followed the "sacrifice" mindset to the point I felt like a martyr, and I thought that's how things were supposed to be. My parents (who'll be married 44 years this year) had what looked to be a happy M...I'm not saying it's not happy, but my mother was clearly a martyr. Still is, although over time things have mellowed quite a bit. And neither of them entered M thinking it was only temporary, but yet that mindset crept in. When H and I would hit a low point, he'd step up and do a better job of meeting my needs (even though pre-MB we didn't know how to define the concept) and after a while it would go back to status quo.

If he's "waiting until something better comes along," I wish he could see that I want to be his "something better." Better than the wife he had, and a wife that loves him like he deserves to be loved. Maybe that's not me, but I would never want him to be miserable and lonely the rest of his life. I want him to love and be loved in return. Yeah, a la the clips HHH posted (thanks again for making me cry, dangit!!!).

I will keep being there for him. I've committed to permanently making changes in myself and someday, maybe, he'll see that and he'll believe that my changes are permanent. That may be the hardest struggle with him, looking back over his ENQ from a year ago (I haven't asked him if he'd do one again, and not sure he would be willing), a lot of his comments were along the lines of how he wasn't sure what was real and genuine or how much was from guilt. I'd like a better idea of exactly how best to meet his needs - how would he like me to meet his EN od AD, for example? How can I meet his need for AF, what actions speak loudest for him? B/C everyone is different and I know that the actions that speak for me are not necessarily the same as for him.


Ask away, NG! I know exactly what the ENs I was "outsourcing": C, AD, and AF. The A began with "innocent" (ha!!!) conversation (as if any C with an ex could ever be construed as innocent - something I should have known was to never have allowed contact in the first place). Talking about the kids, daily life, work. There was AD thrown in there by the OM as well which further began sucking me in. The final element that pushed me over was allowing POSOM to meet my need for AF. That eventually led to SF, but the A was never about only SF for me, but the attention and admiration that I received. I wanted to keep that coming. I was horribly shallow, self-centered and conceited...although that's a typical WS for you. It's obvious now, being well out of the fog, that OM could never have successfully met any other need...and without O&H, how successful is one at meeting C, AD, and AF, anyway???

I do believe we could create a plan to keep those 3 needs met within our M. He has to want to do this, though. I am doing my part by not allowing those needs to be filled by others - no intimate conversations other than those I have w/my parents or my girlfriends, no allowing other males to meet my needs of AD and AF. My "buckets" labeled AF and AD, though, are empty and to be quite brutally honest, I often find myself not feeling the tingles of romantic love. SF helps, since to be desired sexually puts a little bit in the AD bucket and intimate contact puts a little in the AF bucket, but SF alone cannot fill those needs - and that was a lot like what went on in our pre-A M.

sac�ri�fice

- the act of sacrificing one's own desires etc in order to help others (how it is bad in marriage)

- An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy (what we should learn to do in marriage)

- Christ's offering of himself in the Crucifixion (best possible, least arguable act of sacrifice to come to mind).




WPG, you and I were guilty of the first definition of sacrifice. That is where the "martyrdom" came from.

The second is where we need to be.


"I will give up IB to meet my spouses need for C."


THAT is a sacrifice which leads to a return of greater value.