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So, everyday seems to be filled with ambivalence. I asked for the quality time together and so far we've managed to get 1/2 of it in. We both lead busy lives. Right now she's sitting in front of me working. It's almost 11pm. I have been feeling depressed for 3 days straight. the OCD can kick my [censored] into a funk that lasts for days. I usually don't sleep very well either. I look at her and all i feel is distain right now. she got a steroid injection in her knee today and is in alot of pain. I feel nothing, no empathy, no desire to help. It's not like I think she deserves it, I just don't care that she's in pain. She's asked me how I'm feeling, I say o.k., and that I'm feeling depressed. she asks if she can help, that actually makes me cringe.It's like I am in a hole, a rutt. Maybe I'll wake up feeling better. I hope.
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Gar,
My timing is similar to yours in that the affair began 20 or so years ago, but I think it ended after about a year when my W stopped working with OM2. She wanted to divorce me at that time, but I think she gave up when she realized OM2 did not want her and he had poor prospects.
My W chose me but with reservations and a kept a slow burning romantic fantasy I could never compete with, and as a result her romantic feelings never completely returned to what they were.
How did your W feel about you romantically after she had ended it with OM, but before you found out?
God Bless Gamma
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She says she realized love and family was more important than her A. She says when she turned 30, that's when she had her 1st orgasm with me. We had been together 12 years and married 9 at that time. she says the whole "O" thing really "F"'d her up and she felt compelled to explore, she says they were together 100's of times from 1995-2002. Which is when she says she ended it. The OM made her feel comfortable, which is why she stayed with him so long.The only problem with that was she had been with the OM for almost 3 years by that time. She says though only a couple of times. She seems to discount the early years of her A, as if it were a victimless act at the time. As for how she felt before I found out, she says that our relationship in her mind has been ironclad. She realized after a while that she can't live without me. That the romance and sex has been the best she has ever known. I asked her to take a lie detector test to prove that she's over the desire to have another affair or to reveal stuff she hasn't talked about yet. Naturally she refused, saying she is just trying to protect US from anymore pain.
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Gar,
I asked her to take a lie detector test to prove that she's over the desire to have another affair or to reveal stuff she hasn't talked about yet. Naturally she refused, saying she is just trying to protect US from anymore pain.
Given everything she has already done the only thing worse would be if she is still withholding ANYTHING. She should be much more than willing to do anything to prove her truthfulness.
God Bless Gamma
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She said no to the polygraph because she is just trying to protect us from anymore pain? This means she is still lying to you and still withholding the truth from you. Honestly I think after everything she has done to you, you would have to be masochistic to remain in a relationship with her. Please seek out individual therapy to understand why you would continue to accept such humiliation and degradation from her? Why are you willing to accept this? You deserve so much more. Nobody and I mean nobody respects a doormat.
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I asked her to take a lie detector test to prove that she's over the desire to have another affair or to reveal stuff she hasn't talked about yet. Naturally she refused, saying she is just trying to protect US from anymore pain. The truth is, and you know this in your gut already .... a truly repentant wayward will JUMP AT THE CHANCE to earn their BS's trust. The repentant WS will welcome total honesty as their clear path to redemption. The Policy of Radical Honesty
Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.
To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:
1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior.
2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.
3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse.
4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives.
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LINK to Joseph's letter Joseph's Letter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"To Whomever,
"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
(end of Joseph's Letter)
Last edited by Pepperband; 07/28/11 10:24 AM.
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Ask your wife more questions:GAR: "Do you think you want my forgiveness?".WW: "No" .... This is a mountain you may not want to climb, Gar. WW: "Yes" .... Ask a follow up question .... GAR: "Do you think you want me to learn to trust you?"WW: "No" .... Gar, this mountain my be just too hostile to support (your) life. WW: "Yes" .... GAR: "I can only forgive the complete and total truth. I cannot forgive anything kept secret from me. I will only trust you when you are willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make this right.. I will need a guarantee I know everything I need to know. I require a lie detector test as my guarantee. That is your way to earn my trust. It's so wonderful that we will have this as a tool so we CAN move forward unencumbered by any doubts."

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Posted on another thread .... now copy/paste to yours:Two studies on apologizing are "The Five Languages of Apology" by Gary Chapman and Jennifer Thomas, and "On Apology" by Aaron Lazare.
These studies indicate that effective apologies that express remorse typically include a detailed account of the offense; acknowledgment of the hurt or damage done; acceptance of the responsibility for, and ownership of, the act or omission; and an explanation that recognizes one's role.
As well, apologies usually include a statement or expression of regret, humility or remorse; a request for forgiveness; and an expression of a credible commitment to change or a promise that it will not happen again.
Apologies may also include some form of restitution, compensation or token gesture in line with the damage that you caused.
When an apology is delayed, for instance if a friend has been wronged and the offending party does not apologize, the perception of the offense can compound over time. This is sometimes known as compounding remorse.
Compunction refers to the act of actively expressing remorse, usually requiring the remorseful individual to physically approach the person to whom they are expressing regret. Remorse
Remorse is an emotional expression of personal regret felt by a person after he or she has committed an act which they deem to be shameful, hurtful, or violent.
Remorse is closely allied to guilt and self-directed resentment. When a person regrets an earlier action or failure to act, it may be because of remorse or in response to various other consequences, including being punished for the act or omission.
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So basically she refuses to take a lie detector test. We talked again and she flat out said no way. Its obvious to me she has more deception to hide. Is it recent or past?, I don't know. All I do know is that she is willing to give everything up to keep her secrets.I'm not sure what to do now, let it go and try to rebuild or separate and divorce. I love her and I worked hard to build the life we have.can a person ever trust again?Can I? What if she just wants to bury her past and move on? Am I supposed to support that or do I take a defensive stand because it's the right thing to do? She chose her other life without regard for her family. As bad as the situation is, she wants us back. Do we take her, even though she holds the cards? I go through this agonizing thought process every day. Sometimes I'm o.k. Most of the time I feel like [censored] over the nightmare I find myself living. I guess the reality is that I'll lose the material things that we built. I'm not sure what to do?
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Material things can be replaced. Living the rest of your life with someone you can't trust? Seems to me to be more of a sentance than a M.
ManInMotion =========== (see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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Her unwillingness to take a poly, basically says "my lies are more important then my husband". And its not about hurting you. She proved she didn't care about that by having to be caught. I would serve her for sure. She will buckle, if she doesn't then the proof is self evident. One of my "conditions" would be a poly when I ask her to take one. She has no right to say no if she want a chance of R ing.
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Most of the time I feel like [censored] over the nightmare I find myself living. I guess the reality is that I'll lose the material things that we built. I'm not sure what to do? gar, here is how I would approach this situation. You first must understand that unless certain things happen, you are very likely facing future affairs. You have nothing to lose by setting the bar very high and refusing to stay in an abusive marriage. And yes, I do mean abusive. What she has done to you is the worst type of abuse. So asking you to stay in a marriage where you don't feel safe is not reasonable. Unless she makes a radical change in her lifestyle to justly compensate you, you are not safe. Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage that is at risk of repeat affairs. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested: 1. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle 2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc 3. no more opposite sex friendships 4. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph 5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Here is a letter Dr Harley wrote to a betrayed wife who was having nightmares because her WS was withholding facts about the affair: The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.
I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.
The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.
This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.
An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.
Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.
Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr. here
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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About forgiveness: To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.
I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.
In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money. continued here
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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During our nightly discussion, i brought up some of the suggestions and she finally acquiessed. She told me she would take the lie detector test. She said she really had to think it over because it meant exposing her "scared litle girl" I told her to come to the reality that "it's just us now". She told me she was afraid to take it, since she thought I would leave her for. she said that the thought terrifies her. She also decided to come clean about another affair she had sometime in 1989. Although she seemed open about it, she also said a lie detector wouldn't reveal anything she hasn't told me. she says she wanted to be completely honest before she took the test.
Now I have to deal with the fact that it must be done. I really don't know if the new information is a "decoy" or she has finally come to the realization that without the test, we are at the end of the road. Either way I'm not sure at this point if I really want to know anymore. It's been gutwrenching to say the least. I could really use some guidance on what to do from here.
As far as material things, we've built some signifiant business assets that are worth 7 figures. Splitting those assets would cause enough harm to threaten my livlihood and my own financial security, I have to think about my kids.
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You need to follow through with the poly whether she tries to assure you about being now completely honest or not. This is the only way. It must be done, as you said yourself. It can give you additional pain and disappointment about your W but it will give you peace, finally. The truth will set you free - meaning that you can make decisions based on reality. She told me she was afraid to take it, since she thought I would leave her for. she said that the thought terrifies her. Actually, this "justification" is sickening. Think it that way - to keep you, she was (is?) willing to let you live in a lie. I think this "scared little girl" thing is not sincere and it is meant to make you feel bad and stop bugging her.
Me (FWH) 44 Mrs_Recon6mo (FWW) 42 Married 22 years 2 Children 20 and 22 years Last D-Day for me: May 2009 Last D-Day for her: October 2008
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Standard WW response.
They throw out a little info say that's the whole story in the hope you do not follow through and get the test done.
Next as the day of the test approaches WW then open up and tell a lot more. Unfortunately this is why you have to hold their feet to the fire and bring them to the test.
Many a WW continue to debrief their BH on the car ride to the the test site.
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Well basically she said she would take it if thats what it takes to prove herself and to begin rebuilding. I guess now I'm feeling like I don't want to know anymore, because it is so agonizing. She says she wants to re-build so I'm compelled to begin spending quality time and following all the conditions stated in the articles. My hope is that she will do all she can to seek forgiveness and continue to work on the change she has already put effort in. . It's been almost 10 years since she was a WW and although she says she had some close calls, basically other men hitting on her and she didn't allow it to get beyond the flirting stage. she says she never acted upon her desires. I understand that part of her past mindset is an addiction (just like Dr. Harley notes) I understand that she had developed a mindset that made infidelity comfortable for her, and that she tossed all reason out the window. She says she has matured and has made a genuine attempt to change. I have to talk to her more to decide what to do next. My gut tells me to save may marriage, otherwise I would have asked her to move out. The detector test is not going to change the past. I understand that truth will set us free, but finding it in my heart to forgive and make peace with what's happened in my life will too. Still confused, and trying to understand how to deal with my feelings and trust issues.
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Gar,
I think you need to ask your children what they saw, you said the affair occurred at your home, and there is a good chance they witnessed what was going on, but may have kept quiet all these years out of fear or instruction to do so from their Mother.
Given that your W confessed to a 2nd affair I would proceed with the polygraph, and get whatever is still hidden out once and for all.
God Bless Gamma
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