maybe wulffpack could have a conversation with her husband about the topic and ask his opinion on what she could do and if this particular act would help him in any way see her in a different life.
Ask him if there is anything she can do to sway him to return to the marriage.
I agree he must still be angry and disappointed and the trickle truth really sent him for a loop, he is afraid to let his emotions out again......
that might take a long time with a lot of security for him to see the relationship differently, I dont' think he would be sticking around if he wanted out totally, he would be gone if he had given up 100%
there is hope.......
there may be nothing she can do except be herself and hopefully he will fall in love again.......

I can see that if she went to the BW, and made that statement personally, how it would show how serious her determination was, and how fearless she was also, to her BH....But doesn't he know that about her allready? Wont he see that in time? Is he still in a state of shock that blocks him from realising that? WPG has said he was a very sensitive man, its possible, he is still reeling.

There is an axiom in baseball to the effect of "A pitcher never wants to get beat on his second-best pitch, not having thrown his best one."

A year from now, as a WS, I would hate to look back on the long dribble toward dissolution, and say, "I failed to make that ultimate dramatic effort that might have turned things around." But maybe that's just me.



And as far as exposing to the other BS - In what alternate universe does that constitute breaking NC?

But let's consider the issue experientially: In the 23(?) pages on this thread, has any other suggestion, practice, or program convinced WPG's BH that his best option is to re-form the marital union, on the basis of recognizing a new WPG?

As I said before, with the exception of adding to the <<<<< hugs >>>>>> messages, this was the best I could offer, trying to project my psyche into WPG's BH.

Well, in the vein of psyche projection, I'll go a different route on the display of courage and commitment.



This is absolutely hypothetical;

WPG, if you had to wait the entire rest of your life for one single day with your BH, could you look back and say that what got you there was worth it? For one single day?

If you knew that dedicating your lifetime to this new path that you are on could get you that one day, would it be worth it?

What if you could get a lifetime of days?

What would that be worth? 10 years? 5? 2?

What could you see persevering through? Continued separation? Divorce? Your H dating?

Nobody here can answer any of those questions but you, and you alone. No one else can walk your path but you.

You've been given the time, can you produce the patience and consistency?

See you guys are right too in ways that also make sense. WPG we are projecting possible good outcomes from your actions, but its touchy road because its your life and love.

I had a friend named Karen who was a waitress at a restuarant I hosted. She was going to part time colledge at U Mass, after her Husband went the way of the silk shirt and gold chain and I would assume pacifier. Karen had young children and was now working, going to school and trying to build her life.

She came to me and at the time my second wife to be was also brought in, on a question she had about her 14 yr. old boy. (I never counselled single women unless a woman was involved, it was just a dangerous place to go emotionally)

Her boy was rebelious, acting out, acusing her of being a bad Mom, and blaming her for just about everything. My opinion was it was a combination of his age, and the fear he felt because of his father, and his example. I told her to stay strong and active in his life, keep up the disipline, but also keep up her studies at school also, because she was trying to rebuild her life. It was a phase he was going through, and just continue to love him through it, because that was what counts in the long run. He was not responding to any counselling, and his wayward Dad was not any help either, because he laid all the blame for everything on Karen anyways. She was the scapegoat for it all.

My fiance agreed, and we encouraged her to fight the good fight, and prayed with her. Three days later, when he was on senior skip day partying and speeding with his freinds on a popular straitaway, he was killed in an accident. everyone except the driver, the son of a town cop, was killed, and he was permentantly damaged. The paper talked abou t how when they got to the scene, REOS High infedelity was playing on the tape deck, and the evils of rock and roll.

I know my advice was balanced, and every suggestion I had to clamp down on him was used,, along with Karens allready very deep concern for her Son.

But don't you think any words I said meant nothing now, and if I only knew what would happen, I would have advised differently. But can you imagine if I told her a prediction that sounded like that one? She would have said,"Ummm, thanks but I gotta go.." I alluded to the dangerous attitude of rebelion he had, and that was why we talked in the first place because she was worried, but she was fighting her whole family, her WH, and societys now lack of respect for thier parents, yeah folks, respect for respect. Its a dangerous thing, and all adults know why we worry.

Karen did not blame me, but I felt responsible anyway. I keep my feelings to myself of course, she had to much to handle. She kept working BTW, shattered but made it through, my God what she went through.

But the point is I guess, is that it IS your life, your H, and your cross to bear. You are doing what you can, and working through it, taking responsibility, and using your head like you are suppossed to. The ONLY WAY to deal with this is to stare it in the face, and fight the negativity that has attacked your marriage, and deal with what you have brought in. You are doing that, and there is hope no matter what you do, if you do it with the right heart intentions.

Stay strong in what you know is the right course WPG.

At this point, I kind of have the mindset that there is no grand gesture that will turn things around and convince H to give me another chance.

I realize I have no idea if POSOM's BW knows about the A. Honestly, because of the role I played in this, I don't believe I am qualified to say anything one way or another about whether or not attempting to re-expose would be either an act of ownership of my actions and atonement, or simply be cruel to the BW. When I sent that email last year, I did get some comments that I was essentially sacrificing her to try and save my M/appease my H. We were advised that exposure be something we did together, and when I couldn't get him to even discuss it with me, I - like I often did - took matters into my own hands, for good or ill. And I still can't say with certainty my motives are 100% pure in that regard - would I be doing it for her, or selfishly for myself? I certainly don't want to do anything that would cause me to cross paths with POSOM. I guess that is maybe the one thing that makes me doubt that she knows - or if she does know, she's either kept it to herself or she's been gaslighted and told I'm some crazy psycho stalker b*tch - b/c I have heard not a peep from POSOM.

I carried a lot of anger inside me for the OM, even though I am just as much to blame. I wrote him a letter and I put all the venom I had in me on paper. I never intended, of course, to send it, instead I took it home and when I was alone, took it outside, read it aloud, and burned it. I made a decision that I would not dwell on my anger and bitterness towards him anymore. As Tough said, I have no control over the consequences that he may face. And yes, I sometimes feel my thoughts turning in that direction, knowing what I am losing and wishing h377 on him, but then, I'm giving him space in my head, and I won't do that. Not anymore. I gave POSOM too much already.

You all - this board - really you are the only people who see that there is still hope in my situation. Maybe that's why I cling here so desperately, I don't know.

I really don't have any idea what - or how much - I can persevere through. But that's the thing, none of us do. Life never gets tired of throwing things at us, and in the end perseverance is all you can do.

{{{WPG}}}

Although I've rarely posted to you, I've followed your story from the beginning. I really feel for you.

So, if it took 5 years just for him to come home... would it be worth it?

That's only something you can answer, and would have to answer every day.

Until the day a D is final... and maybe after that.

How do I help my BH?

Consider:

In between:

At this point,

and

in the end perseverance is all you can do.

the word "I" appeared 37 times; the word "my", 6 times; and the word "me", 4 times.

Total references to BH was 4.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I kind of have the mindset that there is no grand gesture that will turn things around and convince H to give me another chance.

A young lad came upon a man laying out some gear by a pond, and asked him what he was going to do. "Going to do some fishing," was the reply.
The boy said, "My Grampaw and my Paw fished this pond for YEARS, and they ALWAYS used worms."
The man said, "Really? Thank you for the hint," and he put a worm on the hook, dropped the line, and settled in.
FOUR hours later, as the boy walked past again, the man called out, "I thought your folks always used worms for fishing here!"
The boy smiled and said, "Yup, and they never caught nothin' neither!"

I appreciate the support and advice. HHH, I heard the wolf story before from a retired instructor I respect very much. It's very true. I know which wolf I was feeding when I was wayward. NG, maybe I do focus on "I" because I'm trying to fix my actions...I can't control him, I can't make him do anything, so I tried to change me. I tried to find ways to meet his needs. "My BH" because, well, he's a BH because I made him that way.

He was angry with me today because he had read some of my emails back and forth with girlfriends. I screwed up yesterday and was late for something DD#1 wanted to do at school and was down on myself b/c I'd let her down. Sent a venting email to my girlfriends b/c I'd just felt overwhelmed between all of the kids' stuff and work stuff. I wasn't venting about H. One had responded I needed to ask H for help, they were his kids. I responded that I disliked asking for help, that regardless of what I'd done I know that doesn't absolve his responsibilities as a father, but I just hate asking for help. He read it as me bashing him and that I didn't stand up for him and all he has been doing for the children. It wasn't how I'd meant it, and I tried to explain that the reason I dislike asking him for help is because I don't want to seem needy, and probably the bigger reason that I don't feel like I deserve his help. After all, I caused the situation we're in. I have been trying so hard not to be too "needy" because I hoped he would see that I wanted him, not needed him.

He said it wasn't the first time we (the girlfriends) had engaged in husband-bashing, which is true. I'd never noticed how much women, when we get together, tend to bash our husbands until we went through a "Love & Respect" course at church. And I worked to stop engaging in it. I've tried to offer advice instead of joining in, and if I didn't have any advice I didn't engage in the bash-fests. The problem with friends is, they mean well, but they don't want to see you, their friend, hurting. My friends know I'm hurting and they just want me to stop hurting...but they don't understand MB, they don't understand what happens in the aftermath of an A, and they don't know my H.

We talked. It was so hard to find the right words to say. He told me that he hates me, the only things he feels towards me are hate and anger. I asked him what he felt when we were in bed together and he said, "Nauseous."

I tried to tell him that I've learned so much about how to be a good wife, and that all I wanted to do was to be a good wife to him. That I'd kept trying for all this time not because of guilt, but because I loved him, and I wanted him in my life.

He said he didn't care what I thought about him, he said he "somewhat" read the letter I'd left him a couple of weeks ago. He said it doesn't matter anymore because of what I did. That I'm not worth it. That it was too late. He said he doesn't want anything to do with me, or even the girls until we have a DNA test done to prove he is their father. I told him I'd give him that. I said I'd give him anything else he needed.

He sat and listened, and I tried to put into words what I felt in my heart. I told him that he had asked me not to give up on him, and that I'd already broken one promise to him, I refused to break another one ever again.

I asked him if we could talk this weekend, alone, and he said yes, that we needed to settle everything up or something like that. I asked him if he'd please do one thing for me before then, to think if there was anything on this earth that I could do to help him feel safe enough to come back home. I didn't get angry, tried not to LB, but I couldn't keep myself from crying.

I'm trying to see it as conflict, maybe, and that's better than the state of withdrawal...he and I have never done conflict very well as we've both tended to be conflict-avoiders, I'm afraid that maybe this is a chance, here, and I'll finally screw everything up for good this time.

Or maybe it's not conflict at all, and he really is just done. And I'm the stupid one who refuses to see that. I told him I could let him go, that I understood he couldn't get past what I did, but just saying that doesn't make me stop loving him. I just feel so stupid sometimes.

I'm trying to see it as conflict, maybe, and that's better than the state of withdrawal...I'm afraid that maybe this is a chance, here

Deeeep breath, WPG! Count to ten. Are you ready? Count to ten again.

FBH had a hissy-fit. And...........?

Nothing has changed since yesterday, except he got rid of some bile that's been in him for a while. It was not REALLY about some moronic notes to/from your GF (although, if you haven't learned yet to consider everything written as seen thru his eyes, this might be a good time to do so).

Ignore the confrontation(?) that happened today. Approach tomorrow as you have every day - You are on a mission to try to heal the rupture in your marriage.

Plan A continues unabated, unchanged, if you have the strength.

Just a thought, but could he have really been angry with you because he WANTS you to ask him for help?

Most everything else you posted that he said reeks of "devil talk", trying to convince himself not to care. If he hates you and feels nothing but hate/anger, why would it matter to him if you stood up for him or not?

Get the DNA test done ASAP, as that may be the hold up. Your BH is questioning whether the little girls he loves more than life are really his. And it is tearing him apart inside.

Like I said, just a thought.

I agree with Ngs advice, you had a bad day, try to put it behind you.
He might just be imagining the worst, that when he read the emails, that attitudes and disrespect of him went underground.

But remember its his imagination, and he will have to get a grip on it, any way you go in the future, and this will take some time. You are not the only person that could have done this to him, and I don't think you deserve a Scarlett A Brand just yet.

How many waywards have made this mistake once, and never did it again, after coming to grips with the gravity of it? Plenty I assure you, who have learned how messed up they can become, and regret it the rest of thier lives.....When they think about it.

If the only thing he loved about you was that you were faithful and would never ever for any reason take this road, well then I must be a totally poor judge of character, because I see much more depth to you, and this experience is building more. Yes its backwards, but it would not be the first time either.

Just hang in there and continue to love him when he allows it, and in all other ways be yourself, so he can fall in love with you again, when he is ready to let himself also, and see the possibility. Thats all you can do WPG.

Praying for you and believing the best. God Bless

I know...deep breaths. Breathe. T&P.

Annnd in the interest of full disclosure, it's also the approximate 2-year anti-versary of a major trigger, the 2nd physical encounter with POSOM. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's in the back of his mind.

Him asking for a DNA test doesn't bother me, it's no worse than going through the poly. The girls are his, of that I have no doubts. I already started researching them online. He just has to decide whether he wants a DIY kit or if it needs to be admissible in court. Apparently in this day and age you can get DNA test kits at the drugstore, how bizarre is that??? Seems like a social commentary on the world we live in.

I'm not giving up. I just hate this. I hate being apart from him, I hate that he's hurting, he's in pain, I hate that I destroyed our M, all of this is my fault and I can't fix it.

I just miss him.

I read your thread, but I never comment on it, because I don't have anything to offer than what has already been offered by some very insightful folks here. BUT I did want to offer this:

In the aftermath of my H's adultery and periodically in the months following, I said all kinds of awful things to him. I told him I hated him, that I was sorry I had ever met him. I hit him, or tried to hit him, but he's much bigger than I am so I'm not much of a threat. I often spent nights sleeping on the couch or in the guest room, when I found I could not sleep next to the person who caused me the worst pain in my life. On the better days, we enjoyed wonderful SF, then I'd go back into the down cycle.

I was not forced to live here with him, but since we had just moved overseas and rented out our house back home, and I then had no job to speak of, I felt like I was up against a wall. I did consider going home to my parents for a few months to heal and get better, but my H sadly remarked that it was unlikely I would ever return if I left. We have a grown daughter, so there were no children to keep us together in the home.

So here we are 8 months later, and I still have some very sad days, but I am feeling a little tiny bit safer staying since my FWH has been unrelenting in his new cloak of being the best husband he can be. Even when I am struggling deeply with whether I can safely stay or not, he always is calm, steady, and loving. That speaks volumes to me.

The dynamics are no doubt different given the reversed genders, but I think some of it will still apply. If you always continue to persist in being the best wife/person/woman you can be, it may eventually get through to him. Don't give up. My H refused to give up and kept it up to the point where I actually told him that he was certainly persistent in his being loving. I had never seen him that way before, not in the face of my anger, sadness, and grief. He never became defensive or withdrawn, but took every word, every rejection, every tear and did his best to love me through it all.

He tells me that he hates the person he was before and never wants to go back, that this is the new husband, the just compensation. Every chance you are able to have with your BH, you can play this truth out. He may see it someday; he may not ever believe it, but you will have given it your absolute undying best.

Get the DNA test on your own if that is what it takes to ease his mind. He probably doesn't really believe the children aren't his; he may just be saying that to hurt you and to feel like he can withdraw from you more easily.

WPG - He has his own fog in there. He will continue to have fits and continue to have temper tantrums because it is working for you two.

I recommend thinking of a modified Plan B to remove the EN's.

He cannot change himself until he is ready. Cutting him lose may be the only option. Love him enough to let him go. Once you let him go allow the fear inside yourself to heal.

Is it fear of having him move on with a new relationship?

Would you agree you have to heal yourself enough to be able to survive without him?

As much as you want to save the marriage you may need to have the hope of a remarriage. He needs to heal.

Just like a wayward until he overcomes his anger, hurt, and mistrust within himself he cannot grow. You are growing so much you may have surpassed him at that emotional level.

I recommend thinking of a modified Plan B to remove the EN's.

?????
What do you envision as a "modified Plan B" ?

Which Plan B elements would you modify out of existence? Plan B letter? Insistence on third-party communications? Denial of assistance/comfort?

Halting the EN-satisfaction contained within "Plan A" does not become "Plan B". It becomes "Plan X", and "X" in this case does NOT mark the spot.

If WPG has the (emotional) energy to continue Plan A, that, and only that, should be the tactical plan on which to continue (and maybe escalate?) the fight.

ITL, the proximate cause of this most recent "blow-up" was GF advice to WPG, not based on rational guidance, but on "Oh, you poor dear...." sympathies. It seems your note is in the same vein.

Modified plan I can think of is noexpectations of seriously doing any work. But give it a timeline of say about ?? Years? Until you give up. Till then get tough and hold it together because what else can you do? See it through and doing the right thing,(mb), is the best choice you have, unless you find a time machine.

Hi WPG,
Don't feel bad about what he said. Your BH is still sitting on the fence on whether to recover the marriage with you or not. I doubt he meant any of the stuff he said. Seems like your BH has been withdrawn and suddenly he is in the state of conflict. So that is an improvement even though it can lead to conflicts.

If he did not care for you, why would he even bother to read your emails. As well, if someone makes you sick while having sex, then I doubt it would happen again.

I would not recommend doing plan B, I think the only time Harley thinks that a wayward should do so if the other spouse has made it clear he/she wants out. In addition, if your love bank is taking a severe hit then Plan B is also recommended. If you can continue to Plan A then do so. (Strange advice coming from someone who is pretty much giving up)
But I see hope in your situation and think your BH is very slowly coming around. So if you can keep doing it, then keep going.

Separation, although not ideal, could allow him his space and make him feel more comfortable. I am saying this because he is scared to commit to recovery (understandable as he was trickled truth). You cannot control the pace at which he heals. But he is willing to come around and see you, spend time alone you and have SF with you even though he claims it makes him sick.

Good luck and you can do it. You and your girls want the family back together.

Act normal, do the best plan A you can and sit back and wait.

If BH wanted out he would of left, no legal action is being taken, he still comes to you for SF.

He's scared manureless because of the trickle truth. This BH is going to move slower then a glacier.