...it's now going on 8 months of separation, and in a little more than 4 months he can file for D if he wants

If I could present him (and really, all spouses involved in marital difficulties) a single insight, it would be that epiphany I had around the third day of my enforced estrangement from my (then) WW. In a single sentence, it would be: It's not enough to run FROM something; it's much more important to be running TO something.

I hope your FBH can appreciate that the best thing for your family would be for the two of you to reconcile.

Hang tough, WPG!

WPG,

I have not posted to you before (as you can see I don't post much at all!) but I have followed along and have seen the posts you make to others and have actually shared some with my FWH.

If I could encourage you at all it would be to remind you that you have a lot to be proud of and have so much to offer. You can't change the road it took to arrive at the wisdom you've acquired along the way but you are a shining example of what can happen when we surrender and use even the bad to the fullest.

I admire you, WPG. Praying for your marriage.

LGA, thank you for the support and prayers. I think I may be beyond the point at which I have faith my M can be saved, but if something I've learned along the way helps someone else, then at least something comes from it.


That's such a powerful statement - I found myself thinking of that reading Rocky & Strike's sitch over on SAA. Rocky has been a runner, and I've felt that urge as well, wanting to give up and throw in the towel after one or another of his AO/DJ hits.

As for me, I'm planning to do the DNA test since he asked for that, but the outcome is not going to change anything. The girls are his, there's absolutely no possibility otherwise, but I can understand why he doubts me, and at least I can lay his mind to rest on that one issue, if nothing else.

Ironically I found a job in the paper today, which I'm qualified for, which would involve leaving the area. Rationally, I know I couldn't do that to the kids, but it made me think about that whole "running" thing. I could fold. I could give him the girls, the house, and I could go. I'm the one who broke our marriage vows, so it makes sense.

I'm tired. I have felt as if I've been giving my best, and I don't believe anything will make a difference anymore. It's not just his words from that last outburst, although I admit that the whole "you're not worth it" has rolled around in my head for the last week and a half. It's been the filter through which I viewed his actions since then.

Despite everything, I still love him. Am I "in love"? Depends. There's still a little in the LB$, and deposits are made from time to time, but...many more withdrawals, and I'm running out of strategies to protect what is left.

But I doubt that he loves me anymore. Just because he comes to my bed when he wants sex does not mean he loves me. I'm available and accessible. Familiar. That's it.

Sure, I know we could fall in love, using MB. I still believe in the plan. But the plan takes two to work it.



I can see this. I believe that what is best for our family is for our girls to live together, under one roof, with their father and mother who are passionately in love with each other.

I have no idea what he thinks. He said that he wanted to get an apartment nearby so he could keep the girls half the time, "if they were really his."

Perhaps reconciling, though, is not what is best for him. I'm being selfish by putting my wants and needs, what I *think* are our family's wants and needs, ahead of the truth.

And the truth is, I betrayed him, and no one deserves to have to live with a betrayer. That one fact will forever make me unworthy in his eyes. I no longer believe any amount of redemption is possible. He swore after living through this as a child, that he'd never stand for it in his own M, never put his children through that.

I realized that I'm no longer responsible for his decision of how he treats me now. That's all him. Nothing I do is going to have the magical effect of bringing him back to me. He is justified in walking away, and he is entitled to whatever opinion he has of me. It is not fair to give me false hope.

Yes, we could have had a better M, pre-A. We both contributed. But I alone made the decision to get my needs met elsewhere.

Failure to meet needs can be fixed. Infidelity - absent a plan and a committment to recovery by both spouses - cannot. Doesn't matter how much one spouse wants it, especially when the spouse that wants it is the FWS (since we kind of already cast our lot when we went outside the M), if the other spouse is uninterested in reconciling.

So I guess it was foolish to reconcile with my WW also.
That really it was a waste of time, like I felt for two years, after having my first wife leave also, and I was so determined not to let it happen to me again.

Guess I was also stupid, and my wife stupid to believe I would come back, because I was allready seeing some one else

But the failure of the marrige was from poor recovery tactics and plans, not because we wernt worth it

But ask my children if they ever saw love between us. Ask others also, if we were not the lovely couple, salt of the earth, disciplined and willing, courageous against all odds

You have to have faith in the plan, not your thoughts, opinions, and feelings. Your judgements got you in this mess, don't let them keep you there, all is not lost

Yes you have to have a willing partner, but that's not the issue, you want absolution, and he isn't gonna give that, and can't anyways

There is no easy way around this, and you do not have a better place to go, at least not one that shows integrity

Give it another year, and have hope in the plan, and peace in your decision, that the marrige is worth the sacrifice, of feeling free from your conscience.

Remember you are at ground zero- with him in the trust department, it's all new, every day, no expectations, the past is gone, do you believe that doing the right thing is not fair?
Shortcuts don't work, they drag out the enevitable that love is built every day anew

Isn't that what we are all learning here? That it must be maintained?

Don't give up, and if he wants to, then it's his option. Let him have that option, for your sake also

No - I'd never think anyone who reconciled was foolish or stupid. Far from it. I think it shows a depth of courage and an amazing human capacity for forgiveness. And I have read the stories of people here on this board, who fought their way back, and have so much love for each other, and I want that for us, too.

I guess more of what I am feeling is with him not thinking I'm worth it, and him saying that I haven't changed at all, that when he looks at me, all he sees is a betrayer. Yes, I know that's a DJ, I couldn't possibly know what he thinks. But he's called me evil, he's called me a wh*re, and in all this time has never said anything to contradict it, or tell me he didn't mean it, or he's changed his mind. No - he told me he sees a woman who hasn't changed at all. If I have changed, but he doesn't see it, or refuses to see it, then is is sort of like the tree falling in the forest when no one is around?

I know, feelings aren't to be trusted. I've just been stuck in the dark over the past week and a half. I do believe my M is worth it, I believe he is worth it. With all my heart, I wish he believed I was worth it, too. So much for wishes, right - there's my siggy line over again.

I don't have anywhere else to go. I don't want anyone else. I don't even know if I have another year, I may only have 4 months. I've sent out some feelers over the past week - he turned me down for SF midweek, and the next day after he picked the kids up left and I haven't seen or talked to him since. We text, that's about it. He texted me to ask me to move money over for his car payment, which I did. I texted him yesterday to invite him along with the girls and I last night (we went and played mini golf and had a blast, they are so silly). He ignored my text, and when the girls called him later DD#1 asked him why didn't he come with us, he said he didn't feel like it. I texted him today to ask him about the girls' little pool, I asked him for help to fix something, and he ignored that too.

He asked me not to give up on him. But if he's done, if he's truly done, and there's no hope, and he's given up, I wish he would just sit me down and tell me, without the anger, without the DJs, b/c we haven't had any kind of discussion about our relationship without AOs and DJs since well before he moved out. And I'm quite honestly afraid to try to start that conversation, because his anger scares me.

But yes, I'll go back to the plan, to what I was doing, b/c I don't know anything else to do. And it's the right thing to do, the honorable thing, CP, you are right.

And that WPG, is what you will profit, from that action, honor

Listen my wife WAS awful, selfish, childish, and was full of problems.

It made no logical sense to reunite with her and try again

If I hadn't been dumped by another woman, the only way would have been AA and tons of counseling

But I had also given up on love, and the OW who I was very much in love with, could not convince me, that I could start over. Matter of fact, when the idea of starting over came to mind, I thought of my wife. If I was fair, ( and guys love being fair), WW had a right for forgiveness too.

I doubt that H has a lot of faith on love right now, the way you describe him before the A, but if he is truthful in his heart, he will want it someday, and maybe, just maybe, when he thinks about love again he will remember you, because he can't help it
He's angry because thier is love still, this is a test, not wrought from God but from your own actions. Now you have to make the choice, are you gonna pass your own test?

I would just stay strong in the faith that you will pass this, as you give him time to heal. Yes he can, and if I could get over so much crap then so can he. But it's gonna be His choice, on his schedule, and shall we say Gods timing.

I say this as a man who will probably never trust himself in being a husband again. No boo-hoos thank you, I have had a good run of it. But if you keep your head and insist that you are worth it, you will be. Fight for that self respect, and now once you have messed up, hello, your a weak human like all of us.

Sorry if I seem hard on you, pressure makes diamonds, and you are being refined in the furnace.

Praying for you sister WPG

WPG,

I read what you write and my heart goes out to you, you have made some mistakes and have tried to make amends for those mistakes and that is all you can do.
It breaks my heart that your husband can't understand that people are human and make some awful mistakes but if they truly are sorry and they try to right things then maybe they deserve a chance to prove themselves.....I wish he would give you that chance.......
I don't know how you do it, faith I guess in what you believe is right now and your girls and their family........
I know you love your husband and that you can't give up on that because that would mean giving up on you and what you need as well......
You my friend are a strong, smart woman waiting for her chance to prove herself and I know you will get that chance sooner or later......I just hope it is sooner.....
I am a BS as well and I can tell you that your attitude and remorse and regret is what every BS wants their waywards to think and act like......
Recovery would be so easy if they all understood and believed what you do and learned what you have learned......
You are here for a reason and even though it makes no sense to you someday it will...........
I hope someday your husband can see the woman we all see here living the life she has the best way she can all the while still loving and taking care of those important to her.........keep it simple in life and don't miss a thing....the way you love is what life is about..........
jessi hugs.......

Then never give up. Have you been in recovery for five years?

NO.

So forget about quiting.

SO I had lunch with a friend today. I've known her work-wise for years, but hadn't worked closely with her till I took on some new job responsibilities. Since then I've gotten to know her better and grown to consider her a friend. She's been having problems in her M, her H is engaging in some pretty extreme IB and while I am not sure there's infidelity involved, there are a lot of red flags. Anyway, she knows H and I are separated, but didn't know the penultimate reason for that. I told her the truth, in part b/c I saw all those red flags and kind of wanted her to know that I know of what I speak, and also b/c I told her about this place, and how beneficial it has been for me, and that I believed she could find help here. I won't go into her story, but I hope she'll come here and read, learn, and absorb like I have.

Y'all mentioned faith, jessi, CP...I just posted this on HFD's thread and I wanted to keep it around - I paraphrased it a bit:

If we don�t have faith, we are pushing away everything that God is pushing toward us.

There's been so many days I feel as though I've lost all semblance of faith. I truly don't like feeling that way, because I think we, as human beings, need to have faith. We need to believe in something greater than us, that there is something *more*. I need to remind myself of that from time to time.

Anyway, as for the pushing I get here (whether it be gentle or it be a ) thanks for always pushing me to keep going. Trying to pay it forward.

Not much going on here, but I was looking for another C.S. Lewis quote earlier and found this one:


I knew Lewis was a pretty prolific writer and a theologian, but I'd never read any of his stuff before other than the Narnia series.

We can be safe, or we can take the risk to love, and maybe we will be loved in return. Like schoolbus said so well here there are no guarantees.

D@mn, I'm grateful that I have learned so much, but the knowledge came at what cost?

I ordered a paternity test kit last week. It probably won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things, but it hopefully will give H some peace of mind about that, anyway.

There's no magic bullet, unfortunately. I wish there was.

New favorite song - Adele's cover of "Make You Feel My Love." You all should just count yourself fortunate you don't have to listen to me play it on the piano...and - God forbid - I'm singing, too, no less. I'd like the chance to play it for H some day, if he can stand my singing. :nope, there are no smileys with their fingers in their ears:

You might like "The screwtape letters" and "Battle for the mind" by CS Lewis also.

Thanks for the update WPG and hang in there.

Just tossing in something you probably already know, @WPG: Dr. Harley recommends you give it *two* years. Not five as some other posters have suggested. If you're two years into recovery and your marriage isn't better than it was before the affair, it's extremely unlikely your marriage will recover.

Hmm...I read the advice as more along the lines that WPG should be prepared to wait at least five years for her H to come around and perhaps be interested in repairing the marriage.

I agree, though, that two years is enough time to know if recovery is possible once a couple has committed to that goal.

These two can hardly be said to be in recovery though.

Let me remove the caveat of 'recovery': if your marriage isn't better than it was before the affair two years within two years after the affair is discovered, it's usually time to hang up the cleats. You can decide to keep holding out hope, and I've heard of a few unusual cases where the spouses made it work after a great deal of time, but they are the exception and not the rule.

You'll hear that sentiment from Dr. Harley at least two or three times a week on the radio show. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. However, the Harley advice is typically to call it done and move on if after two years of one partner trying -- and failing -- to repair the marriage.

Yes, there isn't any cite to MB material for the five yea prescription. Some posters have come to their own conclusions that five years is a more realistic time period for someone to "get over" the shock and grief of betrayal.

It can occasionally be used as a shovel to bash the WS praying for a second chance. "You have no business being discouraged since you're not even past TWO years let alone five."

WPG will have to decide how long she wants to hang on after two years. It would seem obvious that the chances diminish exponentially the longer they are apart. In fact even where a couple does reconcile after that long it seems to me you're really talking about a new relationship, not a recovered old one.

Hope you're doing ok WPG.

Hmmm...I guess what I thought was more along the lines of if your M is not better than pre-A, 2 years after beginning R, then it may be time to call it quits. With the caveat that complete R may take 2 to 5 years. But if MB principles for R are followed (not being present in the pre-A M), you should see at least *some* improvement in the marital relationship.

H gave it a year, but we didn't find MB till that year was half over, so MB was only a factor in our R for 6 months. We're definitely not engaged in anything remotely resembling R now.

I simply don't have a clue anymore, to be honest. I want my H, and I've tried to show him that. I've tried very hard to do a consistent Plan A and meet the needs he allows me to meet and avoid LBs. Dr. H's advice to me was not to pursue, but allow my H to choose me.

It's hard. I wear a mask throughout the day, I try to act "normal" even though pretty much everyone in my little universe knows I'm separated. Some know the whole story, some don't. The advice I get IRL is pretty consistently, give up. Let him go. Whether they know the whole story or not, it's all the same. Which is why I come here, because it's the only place I can get any encouragement.

Maybe I will never be successful in proving to him that I love him, that I want him, that I choose him. I don't deserve a second chance, I know that. Although maybe, after all I put him through, he would see it as much more than simply a "second" chance. Third or fourth, even.

I believe I am fighting for what is right. I'm not doing this out of guilt or remorse, though I have plenty of that. I'm doing this because I want him. I want to love him the way he deserves to be loved, and to be the wife he deserves to have.

I also believe that he and I are uniquely, perfectly designed to help each other heal from this. No other man would be able to help me heal from the destruction I caused better than the man I've so grievously wronged.

But I am also realistic, and I realize that the most important thing to me is that I want him to have someone in his life who loves him the way he deserves to be loved, someone who sees how incredible he is the way I do, someone who won't betray him the way I did...because the H that hides behind the wall he has built is so amazing that it breaks my heart to lose him, and he deserves the chance to be that man. For himself, for his daughters. I can wish all day long that I'd known how to breach that wall in all our years together, but it doesn't change the past.

Sure, I get frustrated. I'm so terribly lonely. Most of my most intimate EN's are going unmet. I sit with the knowledge that there's no one to blame for this except myself, and I tend to slide pretty frequently into depression, although fortunately it's not as bad as it was early in this whole mess.

I suppose it comes down to this: if H and I were actively engaged in R, following MB, applying the principles, and then if things weren't better after 2 years of that, then perhaps it would be hopeless. But as I see it, we only had 6 months of MB, and I struggled often at first with silencing my Taker and releasing expectations. And when H's father died, it completely threw our R into a tailspin that we couldn't recover from. He found an escape, a way out, a place to go, and he took it.

He may file for D in as little as 4 + months. But even so, unless he Plan B's me, or remarries, or I give up, I figure there is always hope, even just a tiny bit.

I can't control the first two. I can only control me, and my choice to give up or fight. It may very well turn out to be an exercise in futility, but I cannot in good conscience give up now. He means too much to me.

**Edited to add: And Kerala, we were cross posting - I agree, the longer we're physically separated, the less likely there will be a positive outcome.

I also think, whether it takes 5 years or if H came home tomorrow, we're looking at a completely new relationship. We cannot go back to the M we had pre-A. If we come back together, we will have to build a completely new M. Who knows, maybe a D is necessary for broken and I to do that...it worked for hopeful_person...the examples of couples coming back together after D might be few and far between, but because there are some, then there's hope. Small and slight, but hope nonetheless.

Quoted For Truth. Hammered home a lot this week in the radio show. Men do OK trying to "win" their wife back. Women tend to injure themselves doing so, causing long-term health issues from the stress of such an endeavor.


He knows. He doesn't love you right now, so it doesn't matter to him. It's a subtle distinction, but an important one.


He's engaged in his own affair right now, isn't he?

True, although the first time I was on the show, Dr. H said there was no reason for me not to continue an indefinite Plan A, since there was no active affair, and going to Plan B was inadvisable in my case. That said, I do have periodic physical manifestations of stress, nothing that has been along the order of life-threatening or anything, and a lot of that is my own dumb fault for not taking better care of myself health-wise (smoking like a freight train, slacking on a regular exercise program, not eating/sleeping well)


The AO-fest he had a couple weeks ago - his response to me asking if he feels anything towards me anymore: "Hate. Anger." I asked, what about when we're in bed? "Nauseous."

Yeah. I replay that a lot in my mind.



I have no reason to think so. I suppose anything is possible, and I have no way of snooping to verify as he's changed his email passwords and doesn't use the computers in the marital home. I don't believe he would, but he never believed I would, either.

I'll unveil my amateur reasoning behind a "5 year" approach;

2 years since D-Day
BH left, if he files for D, may be finalized by year 3.
2 years Post D finalization of personal recovery, and leaving the door open.

After that timeline, it's all up to WPG - free and clear to move on, or to wait. Personal decision based upon her BH's actions at that time.

Hang in there WPG you are in a real place that yes is painful, but you are suffering through it, its a slow process.

I agree with the 2 year after active recovery general idea that things should be better, but like you say it hasn't started yet. The big thing is that you are working in the right direction in two years, you will both know it too.

5 years is more geared to the painful memories and visions that come back out of the blue when you let your guard down. At that time they are not so bad and can be dealt with once you learn to push them away because, frankly, you have had to learn how to do it for quite a while and are good at it.

Our imaginations can come up with some pretty strange stuff even years after, and you can imagine how troubling it is to hear trickle truth, and be afraid of more hidden things that were not told. I know you have allready went through this and are taking your lumps for it now, but as addressing the timeline for healing, don't ever be afraid of telling all if asked, healing will happen much faster and the marriage will be stronger, even if it screws up an evening.

Praying for you guys and your post sounded good