And I wouldn't have been hounded out at admitting to an Affairage?

I've read the different views on here and the bottom line is that IF its 'your' wayward or if 'you' are the wayward then its somehow allowed to come back from 'the darkness' and seek redemption, yet if its a wayward who *might've* reached contrition, but only when it was too late, they are no longer 'redeemable'?

Accepted that there were lies by omission, and I apologise for letting down those of you who were most helpful and supportive, as for the rest, I couldn't care less-I'm already (and have been for some time now) off these threads so you won't have to worry too much about me 'stealing advice'.

As for those who like to trawl other forums only to pick and find those to poke derogatory jibes at, I can only say 'get a life', the only reason some might feel safer and more hopeful of posting on other forums is because of people like you.

These are the defects for marriages between the spouse and the OP.

1) The intervention of Reality: Divorce in these marriages tends to take place very early in the marriage. During the affair, the infidel and perhaps the affairee are in a state of intensely stimulating unreality. The second marriage itself seems to be a switch that throws the lights on and illuminates the mess that has accumulated. It is as if the romance had seemed real, while the divorce didn't. Only after the remarriage did the divorce become real enough for the lovers to see that it was all a horrible mistake. The affairs that become marriages typically were so intense they were never questioned at all. During the divorce, reality never set in sufficiently to let the romance be evaluated and questioned. The romance was so romantic on one ever got around to asking if it was sane.

2) Guilt.. People who have wrecked a family have inflicted much pain, and they have a lot they could feel guilty about. As reality sets in, they see many things they were overlooking. They may have felt no guilt during the affair and divorce, and the guilt they feel after the romantic marriage may come as a surprise to both of them. It is generally assumed that people who dont permit themselves to be happy must be feeling guilty about something and are unhappy as a way of punishing themselves for their misdeeds. One aspect of guilt is the reluctance to enjoy ones ill-gotten gains. Another aspect of guilt is the urge to return to the scene of the crime and in some way make amends. As a romantic newlywed resists the joys of the ex-mate who was deserted so blithely, the new mate can feel disoriented and betrayed.

3) Disparity of sacrifice... Divorces are expensive luxuries. Whatever the financial cost, the emotional cost is far greater. Anyone after losing that much, will be drained, exhausted and depressed. It is particularly difficult when the exhausted survivor of a debilitating divorce marries the triumphant winner of the struggle. If the romantic partner is marrying for the first time, and especially if the courtship has been treacherous and insecure, the new mate will be ecstatic. A new couple may feel a disparity in what had to be sacrificed to bring them together. The partner who has never been divorced may have difficulty understanding the complexity of emotions toward the previous family.

4) Expectations.. Then there is the feeling that anything that cost this much emotionally had damn well better be worth it. The greater the sacrifices, the greater the expectations from the new marriage. Now that the promised land has been reached, it should flow with milk and honey. But instead, the new couple are just 2 tired warriors with no fight left in them. Whatever these people were expecting, the best they are likely to find now is the ordinariness of real life, the dubious peace between glorious battles. The more people enjoy the battles involved in wrecking and escaping marriages, the less they are likely to enjoy the business as usual of the new marriage that was the destination of it all.

5) General Distrust of Marriage.. Of course, anyone who has been unhappily married is likely to develop a strong distrust of the institution of marriage. People whose marriages fell apart during affairs are likely to end up distrusting marriages rather than distrusting affairs. People who distrust marriage have a vey hard time being in one.

6) Distrust of affairee..It might seem appropriate for someone to go out with them, or even to marry them, but not quite appropriate for someone to have an affair with them. Affairs are considered dishonorable acts, and people who feel guilty for having affairs believe that they are dishonorable and their partner must be dishonorable too.

7) Divided Loyalties..During the affair tnd the divorce, the romantic couple isolate themselves. It is not only the betrayed spouses who are erased from awareness, but also the children, the families, friends, anyone who attempts to pull the romantic couple from the quicksand of their affair. But after the remarriage, there may be a longing to reestablish connections with families and friends and this may be more difficult than expected. Each close relationship and some that were amazingly casual may have to be renegotiated in view of the hurt caused to others.

8) The nature of infidels.... People who get themselves into affairs have some specific characteristics that must influence the course of their subsequent marriages. Each kind of infidel is different. Most of those who end up marrying an affair partner are romantics who drift hypnotically through this romantic high without taking much responsibility. Romantic remarriage seldom works, not only because of the unrealistic nature of romance, but also because of the reality-avoiding nature of romantics.

9)The nature of affairees.... Affairees want whatever they want from a relationship, just as everyone else does, but what makes them unusual is that they seek their goals among the married rather than the single. They choose partners who are not in position to marry them, and who are engaging in the relationship at great risk. People like this are clearly angry with marriage, and perhaps with the opposite sex. They believe marriage doesn't work, and they demonstrate that by breaking up another marriage as they find a partner for themselves.

10) Romance.. People who believe in the chemistry of romance dont bother to learn much about the physics of relationships. When the romance begins to fade, romantics know little about how to solve those problems that they have relied on romance to transcend. It is painful to watch a romantic relationship dissolve. It happens so suddenly, and so totally. These people have already demonstrated that they would rather get divorced than learn physics, so it is far easier for them to follow the same pattern.

11) Scapegoating of cuckolds... During the affair and divorce, the romantic couple conspired to convince each other that the defective marriage was the fault of the cuckold. To acknowledge otherwise, now that remarriage has taken place, seems a betrayal of the rescue fantasies that fed the romance.

12) Unshared history... Even if the new marriage survives all of these obstacles, there is one further characteristic of all second marriages: The absence of a shared history that brings familiarity to relationships that began earlier in life. If a romantic marriage has wrecked a previous marriage or two, the history of the relationship is painful to both partners, and possibly somewhat embarrassing to others. The new partners keep thinking about it and justifying it, but it is hard to talk about lightly, in the familiar, safe manner of people who can tell their old war stories without guilt. However intense their commitment, people who share a guilty past aren't totally proud of their new marriage.

And I wouldn't have been hounded out at admitting to an Affairage?

You talk about feeling "safe;" was I "safe" from you when you failed to inform me I was helping you prop up an affair?

Scotty, I asked for opinions as well as help. I'm sure many may come here post-counseling. I'm looking for ways to get around dishonesty or find a way to personally move forward/have a plan of action. I'm looking for others who have been here (FWW's or BS's) and how they got past this. As I said, the counseling wasn't something I initiated and, honestly, cannot afford.

Pointing out her dishonesty or telling her I didnt believe her about x or y or z (and then, sure enough, she did suss out some of the facts) - THAT is a DJ.

Yeah, I cant complain about her insensitivity or dishonesty coz thats all a DJ.

And I cant expect Radical Honesty since THATs a SD!!!

She even knows how insincere she's been throughout and thats a LB (she hates me for knowing that shes being insincere and dishonest and been leading me down the garden path).

How messed up is that?

I am about to implode, losing every ounce of self-esteem and all of my belief in religion or even many of my principals. I only survive to support my children and 'be around' for her whenever she decides to want to really recover this M. I have no choices and no options left. I am no longer in control of anything in my life but my capacity to earn. The only thing she didnt get in trying to determine an outcome and manipulate everything about the M and R was she doesnt get to control my emotions (she did successfully manipulate them for a very long time during her gaslighting and fogginess).

I am at a loss, I cannot do anything.

Ideas anyone? 2x4's? Anything....

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Pretty messed up.

As for those who like to trawl other forums only to pick and find those to poke derogatory jibes at, I can only say 'get a life', the only reason some might feel safer and more hopeful of posting on other forums is because of people like you.

Anyone know the answer to this?

Jennifer Harley Chalmers lives in the Phillippines. I believe she uses VOIP via a MN number to avoid international charges back to the US.

So, if a couple lives overseas, say Saudi Arabia, they can get MB phone counseling???

So, if a couple lives overseas, say Saudi Arabia, they can get MB phone counseling???

Hello -

The question came up on the forums: is counseling available outside the US?

YES! Counseling is available to people living outside the US.

We have quite a few clients that are overseas. Those clients all either call in to Steve Harley during his coaching times in the mornings: (6:00 am CT, 7:00 am CT, 8:15 am CT, 9:30 am CT, 10:30 am CT and 12:30 pm CT), or Jennifer Harley-Chalmers calls her clients at the number they provide. Jennifer calls her clients because she is located in the Philippines 9 months out of the year, so she is on a totally different time zone schedule. It works out well for her to pick up those clients that can ONLY coach in the evenings since it is HER morning!

Anyone know the answer to this?