Until you can become strong and healthy in your own skin, I strongly encourage Plan B. I am concerned you do not have the strength to do Plan B.

I can see such a strong pull between the two of you; this crazy making is working for some reason. He is throwing you crumbs and you are trying to recreate bread.

I see your fear and can feel it where I sit as well. I highly recommend you get yourself to a place on calm so you can evaluate how you want to proceed.

The path that has worked for you all these years will continuously deteriorate until one of you decides you want a well built concrete path.

Plan B may be enough for him to hit his bottom. I recommend you enter it as soon as possible as to prevent the divorce from being finalized.

There are many WH's that see the light in Plan B. Yours has the possibility to grow a pair and man up, but only if you get out of his way.

When you enter Plan B you will need stealth like strength, which you will find here. It will take every fiber of your body to resist the dance you are in with him.

He has a strong hold on you, and with time this hold can be released. It is your choice, and only can decide when.

God Bless,

Tough~

I know that every bit of what you guys are saying is true. And yes I have many of those same concerns/fears myself.

Today is the first time I have cried in almost 2 weeks.

I try to convince myself that I am ok with this set up, but Im not.

I think I need help with a Plan B letter. Not ready to go there quite yet but possibly soon. I need a letter that is firm but does not include any verbiage that could be construed as controlling or issuing an ultimatum.

You have no time to waste. You will either be DIVORCED in 75 days or LESS. You have stated that if you are divorced, you will be DONE. Well, then show him what a REAL divorce will look like with you. You will NOT be his friend, you will NOT date him, you will NOT be civil. Get an intermediary, and go DARK. Do this SOON. You don't have a second to waste.

Plan A him for a few days, give him the best "good-bye" ever, and then GO DARK. Do this for YOU.

This is the best chance you have right now, because so far, you have let your WH drive this marriage, and he is heading for a DIVORCE which means, he is heading for a car crash.

Do not play nicey nice in the D or after. He wants to not only have the fantasy D, he wants to have you around as a booty call, a for sure thing. HE IS BEING SO SELFISH. He doesn't give a darn about you.

It will always seem controlling to your WH because he doesn't like you setting a boundary to keep him away. He will try to rationalize you are mean, nasty, ruining the children, "Why can't we be friends" ... Blah BLAH BLAH ....

This is why I worry about you because today this is your boundary,

"I choose not to have lying, cheating, and dishonest people in my life."

He sees it as, "My mommy wifey refuses to let me do whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want. My mommy wifey sucks. She refuses to feed my need for ME ME ME ME... My mommy wifey should bend over backwards for me because I am entitled to do whatever I want. Dang that mommy wifey of mine ... I am so great why can't she understand she is a loser without me in her life."

He won't want to give you up as his enabler for long. He needs you to feed his entitlement and selfishness so he can do as he pleases.

It will be very important for you to stay firm, and I believe you may not be able to do it without help. Stick with us for Plan B and get there soon.

Your little boy husband needs a timeout--his temper tantrums are exhausting!!!

Use the letter in the book Surviving An Affair and tweek it to fit your situation (add 'porn' and the words 'any other women' in places where the other person's name is mentioned in the example letter and don't fret about seeming controlling and giving ultimatums. In this case. In your case this time......being adamant about no contact with porn and other women in any way shape or form is needed.

Your controlling ways will not kill your marriage. Your WH's secret second life will kill it. Yes, you may have made demands in marriage. Its a love buster. You live, you learn. He is blameshifting his actions though. All the secrets which were revealed to you are most likely just a tip of an iceberg and there is so much you don't know.

Be strong because your choice is to be strong and stand up for yourself in a marriage or to let things be................dreadful. End the dread.

Doesn't look like there will be a need for plan a at this point and looks like plan b has been kicked off early (still need to write letter).

He read my posts here,

at least the first page. Proceeded to tell me how much I was hurting him, that he has told me this place and it's program hurts him , and yet I ignored him and posted here anyways. Said he was glad I saw a change in him because I was about to see another one due to MY inability to change.

That I continue to push a recovery program instead of just letting things happen naturally.

I have hurt him, he doesn't trust me.

Didn't understand why I came back to this board and insist on listening to a bunch of forum users when he himself can tell me exactly how he feels.

Wanted to know where all the failure stories were on MB. According to him after us having a great week I just went and sabotaged us again.

He said it's time for me to just move on as its apparent we have two very different views on how this should be handled.

I told him I agree.

I love him. Until the divorce is final I will continue to hold the door open if he agrees to a plan of action . I have enjoyed spending time with him, I have enjoyed the changes I have seen, but without a real plan I just think we are setting ourselves up for failure.

Plan B is your plan, not his. Plan B is loving, firm and safe - it allows the spouse a way back if they are worthy. His tantrum is selfish, destructive and cruel - it intends to keep you in a place where you are too unsure to leave and too unhappy to stay.

You are in total control of Plan B. Read the art of war thread in my sig and prepare to battle from a safe hidey hole where you will heal.



Absolutely - the birth of a warrior!

However I dont like him reading your thread - how did that happen?

Well, if YOU want to implement Plan B now, and it is part of YOUR plan, then DO IT.

Get that letter written up, get an IM and get DARK.

If you allow him to go through with the D and then are "friendly" with him, you will keep yourself STUCK. It is HE who must change.

I do wonder, why did you agree to every other week? Did you have a separate lawyer? WHy would agree to let your DD's be around a VERY wayward and entitled man?

ITA with the great advice you have been given here.

I have never been divorced, so I may be be wrong, but just because you signed the initial papers may not mean that it is all over. Can you get other legal advice BEFORE your court hearing?
Someone with more expereince can chime in on that one.

He called, we talked. He has been trying and yes I have seen a change in him the last month or two. Yes, about once a week I freak out, cry , get angry and tell him I need to see a committment to recovery, plan of action etc. He tells me hes not ready to come home and will not commit to plan until he has seen change on my part.

He said that every time he gets closer to taking another step I blow up (and it is true I do).

He reiterated tonight what he has told me several times. He is trying. It may not be the plan I want but it is the best he can offer right now- as he starts feeling better than he takes the next step. He will not put a pause/stop to the divorce at this moment but did say tonight that if it is possible that I can make him feel comfortable about returning home prior to the D then he he will and at that time he would be willing to commit to a plan. He says that he has made it very clear what the path is that I need to follow to bring him home (quit acting crazy and quit trying to force the issue of him coming home and starting a program).

He did say that it is his goal (as well as mine) to get him back in this house and us on a road to recovery. But he needs me to lay off the freak outs and angry outbursts.

I do need to chill. The D has been filed - this is my opportunity to try and get it stopped. I have emailed the MB radio so hopefully will hear back from them.

I think at this point I will just continue as is and see what the Harleys have to say. H did say that in the next day or two he was going to post his own side of the story here on the forums (I hope he does).

For clarification - there is no active A or OW and yes I do know that for fact.

I do believe him when he says he loves me, I do believe him when he says he has hope for us. I think we have both caused a lot of pain to one another and now we are in a Mexican stand off waiting to see who will let their guard down first. When I get scared I run. I always have. The way he is acting now - the actions - are completely different than what I was seeing in April & May when this all went down. I have to give him credit for that.

Scotty: It was an uncontested divorce, we used the same atty. I did not push for different child care arrangements bc despite mine and his issues he is a good father and my girls love him very much - I will not take time away from them and their dad due to issues between us. He is not in an active affair at this time. All of his time is either spent at work, here at my place or at his moms where he is staying.

My issue is I want him home, I want him to stop the divorce, I want him to commit to my plan for recovery and I want it now, now, now. So yes, there are some control issues on my part.

I am eager to talk to the Harleys.

Stop. posting. fog. babble.
You are driving the bus. Plans A and B are built to help you. You are being gaslighted. You need some space to breathe, some time to learn and think.
God bless.

This isn't "conrtol issues" this is wanting a MARRIAGE which you do NOT have. What you have right now is a train wreck.

You are GOING TO BE DIVORCED.

Where is all that fear now? What happened since you starting posting here? Well, I will tell you. YOU TALKED TO YOUR WH AND BELIEVED HIM.

Are you planning on remarrying your WH after he chases you?

While there ARE situations where some couples HAVE remarried after a D, it isn't all that common and holds A LOT of problems in and of itself.

You DO need to clean up your side of the fence. What you need to do is get into Plan B and let him explode his OWN life.

What is going on with your exposure? You should be getting it done TODAY(or tomorrow morning at the earliest) because he has read this thread, he KNOW that you are going to do it, and he is going to try to get to everyone FIRST. He will spin it HIS way.

Get exposing, do as Pep suggested. If you wind up divorced, at least everyone will know the TRUTH.

And about your D. You really should get your OWN lawyer. Maybe it SHOULD have been contested. Maybe you can contest it NOW and DRAG IT OUT. Get to a lawyer TOMORROW.

If you really have ANY chance of saving this, you need to do this all NOW.

You need to ACT not REACT.

You came here asking for help and you have had some GREAT advice so far. Exposing, and Plan A, into Plan B, and trying to DRAG out the D are ALL things that DrH would suggest. You CAN and SHOULD do these things even before you talk to them, as they can ADD to it.

I want you to try to save your marriage. I am looking out for what is BEST for you, someone needs to, since it sure as heck isn't your WH.

WH doesn't like reading the forum advice and responses cause it doesn't jibe with his world view, his control via blameshifting, his wishy washy plan.
Keep with us.
Let us help you.

If WH keeps reading....well...he isn't going to like what he reads.

At this point, he really does not care what you want.

This is very passive agressive, and you both are going to have to learn about RH before any recovery can start.

Here is a sad newsflash. Your WH is not going to chase you after the divorce. He is not the first WH to think up this type of plan, it has been posted here before.

You have the best MB advisors here. Please slow down and do more reading. We are not here to chose sides (except the side of healthy marriage.)
You both have had A's. fact
You both have abused your M's and each other. fact
In your current M state, recovery is a long way off for you.
But it is not impossible.

You both need to be on the same page for recovery.

You are not on the same page, you guys are not even in the same book.
Listen to the advice here. MB is your best option, read SA and Lovebusters.

I actually agree with him here! It IS crazy to try to force him -he has to come willingly and enthusiastically. He has to want to do it all by himself. He needs to have the door slammed shut in his face until he is willing to PROVE his sincerity in wanting recovery.



Saying: "Honey, I want a happy marriage and good recovery - but you can keep walking if you're not on board" is NOT controlling because it genuinely is up to him whether he is willing to do what you need.

You are allowed to control your own goals for happiness. He can opt in or opt out, whichever he wants.



This is what he SAYS - but what does he DO? What is he willing to DO?

Dr h says 'Trust what you can verify'

I too believe he loves being around you and filling up on your attention - but he isn't willing to repay you with his care, time, protection - or anything at all, because he doenst have to.

Set your boundaries - if he loves you he will step up to them.

Stop letting him gaslight you into 'unconditional love' instead of agreeing to meet your needs and ESSENTIAL requirements for recovery.

If he is truly a freeloader, then he will keep walking and you will be better off

But if you truly *believe* he will step up.... Give him a chance to jump the high bar and show you so. Go into Plan B. Set the bar high.

If he is a thoroughbred, he will jump it.

If he is a pig, he will not.

How did he find your posts?

He found my post because he has access to my email - and I know he typically checks it a few times each day - I just registered for the forum yesterday and I knew he would see the registration email (does not matter if I delete from my end as he has access to my email from the server side). He suddenly changed his mind about coming over for dinner last night (which he normally does every night). I knew he would be upset that I was visiting this site - I had discussed MB with him many times before and it is now a sore subject for him (and he blames the exposure I did on him on MB). I knew if he had found the email there was a possibility he had already found my thread. So I thought maybe he had already read it and that is why he was not coming over , I felt it was better to fess up to the thread.

Don't think he read it all - from what he said he read the first page and then got upset about it.

I'm not worried about him reading it from the perspective of it ruining any plans I might have.

I understand the whole art of war philosophy , I was a top producing sales rep for many years and practically majored in the art of mental war fare. Unfortunatly in the past I used many of those same mind games, tricks , techniques whatever you want to call them on my husband early on in our marriage. This is where he feels that I have emotionally abused him/ manipulated him over the years. Which led to his unhappiness , which led to his affairs.

As part of my own personal recovery , I have been changing how I react to things. I used to be rash, I used to employ jedi mind tricks, I used to be vindictive. And trust me there was a time when had I been going thru this then rather than now - my steps would have looked much different (massive explosive exposure, bridges being bombed, billboards taken out with his face plastered all over them, war of the roses style divorce etc). And I am not saying those measures or wrong or that they may not work for most people - but knowing my husband, his emotionally abusive child hood and the pain I brought him in our marriage- these steps would not work for us now.

However, while I know my past behavior does not justify his affairs, I do accept full responsibility for the way I treated him, and the fact that the A's were a symptom of what had turned into a bad marriage. While I may not be happy with my situation, I do have a level of peace with the way I have handled it. I did a limited exposure early on - that will be all of the exposure I do. The A's are dead I see no reason to further expose. People will believe whatever truth they want to believe, and frankly I have never been the type to really care what others think of me anyways. There will be no contesting of the divorce or hiring a shark attorney, I could have gone that route but I chose not too. The terms we came to were mutually acceptable to both of us and I am comfortable with them.

IndieGirl, you are right I can not force him to return to the marriage or to commit to a recovery program. But that is exactly what I have been doing. In fairness to him, he is much different now then he was a few months ago. When I sit back and allow myself to do a true plan a , I see the changes in him - and yes he does reciprocate - does he still speak fog babble ? yes sometimes, and I have to remind myself of that. But when I stop and view his actions I do see change and have to ask myself, if he wasn't interested in me or in trying to rebuild with me , would he:

-Check in with me several times thru out the day - to let me know why & when he may not be available at certain times so I don't freak out.
-Greet me via a sweet text first thing in the morning and at bedtime
-When all this first started he was only comfortable communicating via text- but now he calls me as well thru out the day
-Spend every free moment (other than sleep time) with me & the kids
-Willingly take me out and plan new & exciting date nights for us

Anyways that is not all of the things he has done. But compared to the man that left in May, who looked at me coldly, wouldn't hardly speak to me, said cruel things to me etc, it has been a dramatic change.

Unfortunatly I have never been great at controlling my emotions and patience has never been my strong suit. So when I see him getting better and moving closer to me , I freak out. And I make all kinds of demands that suit my needs. It is a constant 2 steps forward , 1 step back.

He has asked me to show him consistency. To show him that yes I do want him back and am willing to work on this as well. I have failed to show that consistency.

I think I need to do a real, true , honest to goodness plan A with absolutely no demands or freak outs on my part for at least 2-3 weeks (I have never made it past 6 days in plan A). Then at that point I need to evaluate his behavior/ actions and determine if it is time to plan B.

I am not saying that exposure/plan a/plan b do not work , I believe they do, but I also think I have to verify with my own eyes/heart what changes I have been seeing in him as well as look at our history and work the plans in due time after I have insured that I have fully done my part as well to show him that this can be a fun/safe/happy/romantic place for him to return to.

Still hoping to hear from the Harleys radio show.

Marriage works best with a "buyers" mentality towards the relationship.

That means that you are 100% committed and will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes, to make things right.

Your husband has a freeloaders mentality, that things should come naturally, and if they don't - its ok to walk away.

You cannot have a marriage between those two very different approaches.

Its also very important for you to judge your husband based on ACTIONS not WORDS.

If you do nothing, there is one thing I can GUARANTEE. You are going to be DIVORCED very shortly, and your WH has gaslighted you and controlled this situation for what is best FOR HIM. You bought it.

Maybe, one day, in the not so distant future, you will remember THIS thread, and you will have regrets that you didn't follow anything of what we advised. NOTHING we told you is contrary to what the Harleys would advise you to do. If you have read enough here, you would see that.

I feel truly sorry for your DD.

And after your DIVORCE is FINAL, don't go on dates with this man. Go heal yourself first, and find someone better.