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I'm listening.
A week ago, I was planning on spending 30 days without seeing or hearing from my wife so that I could focus on my work and myself. I want the time away, but was afraid that it was actually going to make things worse with my wife.
Now, today I've spent at least 4 hours obsessing over how to fix my marriage again. Very disappionting.
I'm confused. Also, I need to change my username.
I really don't want to get back into the spying game. Maybe I don't.
There must be a plan I can follow that works regardless of my wife's current whatever with whoever. right?
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I really don't want to get back into the spying game. Maybe I don't.
There must be a plan I can follow that works regardless of my wife's current whatever with whoever. right? Yes, it is Plan Divorce.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Ok. Just changed my name to ark77 now that we're talking about me doing the exact thing I promised my wife I wouldn't do.
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Give me a shout when you get serious.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I really don't want to get back into the spying game. Maybe I don't.
There must be a plan I can follow that works regardless of my wife's current whatever with whoever. right? Yes, it is Plan Divorce. Are you always this funny?  Let me ask you this. You must get people like me all the time - wife is obviously having an affair, and we're able to just believe her excuses no matter what. When you get one of us to pull an "aha! I caught you!" to the spouse, does it help? How about this. We have couple's therapy on Thursday. She's going to want me out of the house. I'm supposed to stay no matter what, right? I sleep in the attic that I use as my home office. She was clearly very upset today that I am not leaving the house for a month, but I can also see cracks in her statements that make it seem like all is not lost for us - but she wants time to herself. So how reasonable is it for me to say, fine, I'll give you lots of space, but you need to stop texting HighSchoolBuddy?
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Ok, here is what my wife is posting on her message board. I think it makes it clear that this is a genuine relationship breakdown, external from an affair. I feel like it is this that I'm fighting against: DSD wants to know why we're getting divorced
Sep 3rd, 2011 at 8:48pm I have posted a couple of times about my issues with my husband, Michael. A few days ago I told him I wanted to get a divorce, and I started the process.
DSD, 15, is very upset. Today she asked me to reconsider the divorce. Also, she wants to know why I want the divorce. Just for context, I've been raising her since she was 2, and over the years she's lived with Mike and me about half the time.
It is really hard to explain and I need help figuring out what is appropriate to tell her. One of the issues I have with Mike is that he has no emotional boundaries. Part of this issue is that he spills his guts to DSD about personal things. He blurs the line between friend and parent all the time.
Here are the reasons that I want a divorce, if I can think of them all...
- over the years, Mike has consistently and systematically lied to me about the severity of his bipolar disorder, and has not let me support him when he needed it.
- over the years Mike has lied and misled me about his work--when he was working, when he wasn't, how much money he was bringing in. He is self-employed and he kept me in the dark about his business financials.
- Mike's boundary issues/personality/etc. have made it exceedingly difficult to just be me. I have pushed aside my true feelings for many years. His lying has made me doubt myself and my instincts. I'm not even sure I know what it means to love any more, other than love for my children.
- Mike's boundary issues/personality make it impossible for me to have any "space" when he's around.
- He has a totally "enmeshed" relationship with DSD. To say they have boundary issues is an understatement. I don't want my little ones to also be burdened by this.
- He does not work consistently and overspends.
- He is generally unreliable.
I don't know how much to share with DSD. I know she's not a little kid. I don't feel like I can just tell her "Dad and I can't live together any more." like I'm telling my 6yo. DSD also has boundary issues. She thinks she has a right to know everything. I will lose her if I tell her nothing. Pagan, I wish it were that easy. The truth is, we get along just fine. We can spend almost any amount of time together and rarely fight.
At some point, the house of cards started tumbling and I found out about all the lying and deception. I did some soul searching and realized I didn't have one any more because he had squeezed it so tight it shriveled up and died.
I'm working on re-growing my soul now. But he lives here, DSD sees us together, and we still get along, joke together, etc. I love him, but I can't be married to him any more.
And unfortunately, Mike has just about no boundaries when it comes to this. He's already told DSD loads about stuff, all from his POV of course. So she's asking me about it.
I am seriously afraid of losing her for good if I don't tell her some part of the truth. Actually DSD has had many emotional problems over the years and the divorce seems to be pushing her over the edge. She's had suicidal thoughts and has been cutting herself. I have no idea what to do but she is definitely not ok. I could just stop the divorce for now. I have my little ones to think of too and I think the divorce is actually the right choice for them. I know it's the right thing for me. I don't know what to do. It's not worth divorcing if she's going to kill herself. Gayatri wrote on Today at 11:23am:
Have you talked to the family therapist or psychologist to see what s/he recommends? Actually I just got off the phone with the family therapist. I asked her straight up if I should postpone the divorce until DSD is in a better place and she said no.
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Like we told you, you are fighting against an affair. We already addressed the fact that your wife has grievances. We know already. We dont need for you to post them. The problem is the affair. we told you that already.
But we can't help you save your marriage unless you will listen to us.
Also, she is taking you to the counselor to gain her help in dumping you; that is the whole point. So if you want to get dumped then by all means go to the counselor.
If you ever get serious about saving your marriage, though, give us a shout.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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] So how reasonable is it for me to say, fine, I'll give you lots of space, but you need to stop texting HighSchoolBuddy? Wow, theres a plan to save your marriage!  NOT!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mike, she's not telling her buddies on the parenting forum about the other man because it would make her look bad.
Women don't leave men without a catalyst. Your marriage has been terrible for years. You have been lying about stuff for years. You have been enmeshed with your daughter for years. Nothing in the marriage has changed particularly.
What HAS changed is that your wife is in love with your buddy. That is the catalyst that her pushed her to make this change.
Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
Plan D: Filed 11/13/09 Final 3/30/11
MC told me that he probably has a personality disorder
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Mike, she's not telling her buddies on the parenting forum about the other man because it would make her look bad. I agree with this and don't expect to find evidence there. Women don't leave men without a catalyst. Your marriage has been terrible for years. You have been lying about stuff for years. You have been enmeshed with your daughter for years. Nothing in the marriage has changed particularly. Our marriage hasn't been terrible. We share a lot of laughs and care for each other. But I have been unreliable and that has caused her a lot of anxiety. Too much. When she reached her threshold on that (which coincides with our friends visiting. I get the implication), I told her about what I figured out in the last couple months and that's when she decided I've been lying to her all this time. I withheld the whole truth out of pride and fear she wouldn't understand. I'm saying that the marriage did change in that when I let her in on my struggles over the last five years, she felt terribly betrayed. What HAS changed is that your wife is in love with your buddy. That is the catalyst that her pushed her to make this change. This, it turns out, is not a change. I've heard recently that they've had feelings for each other for 15 years. What is different is that she's letting it get in the way of our marriage.
Last edited by ark77; 09/12/11 07:54 AM.
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I think I need to know of a book I can read that explains this model of behavior.
I ordered Divorce Busters last night.
I don't think I'm ever going to get more than circumstantial evidence about this emotional affair. But the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.
What do I call this theory that the decline in my marriage is actually the result of an emotional affair, rather than the result of my bad behavior?
If she's already filed for D, do I gain anything by saying "You have to stop this affair!"? I can certainly say, "I'm angry with you for letting this affair interfere with our relationship." But that just sounds hurt. Does that help?
She's a smart girl. Is there any way I can show her a book or article that describes her behavior that she can relate to and realize that the affair changed her feelings toward me, not the other way around?
I feel like it's so clear there is an emotional affair, I don't know why I wouldn't bring it up in counseling this week.
I won't be able to fight away the fact that she has legitimate complaints.
I have been snooping again, but if feels like a terribly risky and disastrous thing to be doing. I will never get my hands on that phone. She takes it into the shower and sleeps on top of it.
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ARK, FOR GOD'S SAKE, DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THE CAUSE OF YOUR PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW IS THE OM? STOP EFFING ASKING IF THERE IS ANY HOPE TO DO ANYTHING IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO EFFING EXPOSE THE AFFAIR AND KILL IT!  Am I clear enough. Can I scream through this computer any louder? I feel like I'm talking to a naive child here. Wake the eff up!  Your wife is in an emotional affair with high school buddy. You will not save your marriage by doing things her way. Her posts could have been written by my ex. Same garbage spewed to others about every little flaw I might possibly have. I didn't read anything on there that was terrible. Those are the excuses she's using to not like you and to attach herself to OM. So you need to get a hold of those text messages or put a keylogger on the computer or put a voice activated recorder (VAR) in her car to catch her talking lovey dovey with OM. Then expose. Stop dilly dallying and do something. Stand your ground. You're not leaving your home. If she wants out, then she can leave. Stake your claim to your stuff. Let her deal with the reality of divorce and let her know that if divorce is the outcome that you will neither make it pleasant nor be her friend when all is said and done. Let her know that it will be ugly and that you will fight tooth and nail for custody and for every last fork and spec of dust in the house. Then, after you calmly lay all that out for her, tell her that you'd much rather fix what is wrong with your marriage and then ask her what she would like for you to make her for dinner.
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help, this guy is not going to make it. I have given up.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I did get a freak opportunity to look at the phone today. Only about 2 minutes, and honestly, there wasn't anything really dangerous.
I'm gathering that the routine is to find the evidence then broadcast to friends and family that the divorce is happening.
I can wait here for weeks hoping to one day see a really incriminating text, risking seriously destabilizing things if she finds out, but meanwhile I have a divorce that is in action.
I told her today that I understand that we're going through with the divorce, but I'm going to drag my feet as slowly as I can so we have an opportunity to re-think things.
I gathered this bit of IM to a person unknown on facebook from the keylogger:
mike's trying very hard to "take responsibility" for the issues but at the same time it's all my fault because I won't give it more time
when we first split I told him I wanted 6-12 months separation" to see if he could work on himself and then we could see where we stood
now after hemming and hawing
NOW he's willing to move out for the requisist 6-12 months if I will put the divorce on hold.
I'm just tired of it. I want it to be done. But I can't help having second thoughts.
yes
I need to remember that I'm dealing with someone who is manipulative and mentally ill
and has no boundaries
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You tell her that if she moves out that you will need child support from her since the kids aren't going anywhere.
Refuse to talk divorce.
You're laying down and giving up. FIGHT!
That means you spy. If she finds out, tough! You spy? Yes. When she quits sending a million texts to another man, you will stop spying.
You're not going to uncover this affair with wimpy spying tactics. That means you need to step it up. Put a recorder in her car. Put a keylogger on the computer. Get copies of the texts.
My friend, if you don't step it up and fight, you will end up divorced, which is not what you want.
You're the kind of guy that will end up broke from paying CS out the nose while his WW raises kids he never sees with another man or moves them away.
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I say this all to you as a man who had your attitude.
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I'm sorry, Melody. It looks like you were right. I might not be following your advice. I reject the idea that there is only one way to handle the situation and that snooping and catching her in the act is the only possible way forward. I am thinking of sending her this email: I'm not saying anything angry, hurtful, or emotional in this email. There is no attack, just information. I encourage you to read this. This is what wikipedia has to say about emotional affairs: This type of affair is often characterized by:
* Inappropriate emotional intimacy. The partner being unfaithful may spend inappropriate or excessive time with someone of the opposite or same gender (time not shared with the faithful partner). He or she may confide more in their new �friend� than in their partner and may share more intimate emotional feelings and secrets with their new partner than with their existing spouse. Any time that an individual invests more emotionally into a relationship with someone besides their partner the existing partnership may suffer.
* Deception and secrecy. Those involved may not tell their partners about the amount of time they spend with each other. An individual involved in this type of affair may, for example, tell his or her spouse that they are doing other activities when they are really meeting with someone else. Or the unfaithful spouse may exclude any mention of the other person while discussing the day�s activities to conceal the rendezvous. Even if no physical intimacy occurs, the deception clearly shows that those involved believe they are doing something wrong that undermines the existing relationship. In other words, if there was really no harm in meeting with a friend, both parties would feel comfortable telling their partners the truth about where they are meeting and what they are discussing.
* Increased fighting. When a person becomes emotionally involved with a third party, they may view the new person as all good and their committed partner as all bad. This person may blame their interest in the third party on their committed partner, which will lead to increased fighting and strain on the relationship.[8]
An emotional triangle. One that may only be known to the unfaithful, who then struggles to keep the other two from knowing of the impact of one upon the other. Denial will likely characterize the unfaithful person's response to an invitation by their spouse to reflect on the competing demands of the relationship with the other person.
* Sexual and emotional chemistry. Sexual and emotional chemistry can present itself based on a physical attraction one might feel for another person. In addition, it can also be related to an increase in dopamine, a hormone that produces feelings of pleasure, and norepinephrine, which is similar to adrenaline and causes an increase in excitement. This may or may not lead to physical intimacy, however, if nurtured it may present itself. The time between the first meeting and a first kiss can often be very lengthy, but the time between the first kiss and sexual intercourse may be very short. In most of these affairs, however, an unspoken attraction exists. A partner may spend extra time getting ready before seeing this "friend" or may buy new clothing or change their appearance in order to seem attractive to them. They may obsess anticipating phone calls, emails or text messages.
* Denial. Denial of the presence of sexual behavior, sexuality or even of an atom of limerence. "Limerence is an involuntary cognitive and emotional state in which a person feels an intense romantic desire for another person. It is characterized by intrusive thinking and pronounced sensitivity to external events that reflect the disposition of the limerent object towards the individual." This denial can be exhibited by the cheating partner and/or the partner being cheated on, especially if the partner cheated on is male. If the cheating partner accepts that the element of sexual attraction exists, however, and physical contact starts, it can cause the current relationship to start collapsing.
* Betrayal. There is an implicit betrayal of values, believed to have been shared, about the sanctity of a relationship based on love, of the idea of a soulmateand of being faithful to fundamental agreements underlying intimacy, that are perceived by the spouse not involved in the affair to be a core of their committed relationship and world view. Also this: David Moultrup has broadly defined an extramarital affair as
a relationship between a person and someone other than (their) spouse (or lover) that has an impact on the level of intimacy, emotional distance and overall dynamic balance in the marriage. The role of an affair is to create emotional distance in the marriage. This is what I have to say: You have a husband who has made mistakes. You also have a husband who is loyal, and loves and cares deeply about you, your children, and your home. You have a husband who takes responsibility for his shortcomings and is making every effort to overcome them. I will repair damage done and change negative behaviors with or without you, but it would be done more quickly and more easily with your support. I believe there will be a point when you become convinced of these things, but the more weight you put into an emotional affair, the harder it will be for you to see this. I trust you to make these decisions for yourself. My question is whether I should allow her to read this before her individual session with our couselor today, or before our joint session tomorrow, or never at all, or with different words. I'm also mulling over whether going to see the therapist tomorrow is a good idea, given that we're at a comfortable (for me) stalemate on when I am moving out and the fact that I'll be working quietly against the divorce. I'm guessing the majority of you are going to say no to both. I'll take your advice into consideration. I really thought wikipedia's synopsis was quite excellent, in part because it accurately and concisely describes the condition and implications, and she ought to be able to recognize that every bulletpoint and sentence in there applies to her/us.
Last edited by ark77; 09/14/11 09:30 AM.
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ark, are you using this forum as a blog? Because I don't see the point of posting here if you already have a plan and have rejected our advice. It is your life and of course you don't have to take our advice, but why post this here?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Melody, I have taken your advice into consideration.
There is more than one way to fight an affair, and snooping isn't helping any. She's left her phone alone where I can get to it 3 times in the last two days for several minutes. All three times, her texts were purged. She had old innocuous texts from highschoolbuddy, but nothing in the last couple weeks.
I have told her how I feel about the EA, and she's gone from brazenly texting in front of me to looking guilty when she does it.
I think I can get her to realize what is going on through rapport building, rather than by water-boarding.
I *am* still looking for advice, but not for the one-size-fits-all approach. You don't seem to have a lot of flexibility. I appreciate your advice, but there is only so much I can do with it at this point.
I was hoping to hear another point of view.
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EXPOSURE is the only way to kill the affair. Nothing between you two can happen until this affair is dead.
EXPOSE and save your marriage TODAY
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