There is so much to digest here, and it is all very good. I'll need to let it sink in. I just started reading the first chapter of Love Busters to him tonight, and I'm feeling more humbled. I do see your point about focusing on building love. There is still a lot of hurt that wells up in me even as I write this post, but my husbands heart towards me is ultimately for my good.

I'm very grateful for this post Enlightened_Ex. I have been justifying. I hope the education we receive as we read together is the start of something new. I'm grateful that he's willing for me to read to him. We didn't make it quite thru the first chapter before he fell asleep in my lap. It's a sweet moment.

Please don't give up on me. I really do want to learn.

Thank you hurtingturkey. These are very good suggestions. I agree that we need to make a point not to argue in front of the kids. It has gotten better thru the years but when it's bad , it's BAD. You are right. We could use a victory. I'll talk with him.

Thank you.

I'm reading your post again, and I mean it. Thank you.

So yesterday we had a conversation that typically would lead to a nasty argument. I tried the phrase "you may be right" and it didn't kill me. Lol
When Enlightened_Ex said I don't have to understand his point of view, it changed some things for me. I can see how it would feel like he couldn't have an opinion unless it made sense to me. We don't have to agree, just be respectful of each others opinions.

He did have an AO during the discussion, and I asked if we could talk later because I wasn't feeling well and started to cry. (I get sick sick to my stomach when people are upset with me. I'll work on that) My husband softened and hugged me at that point, but I did instinctively say "don't" when he came towards me which hurt his feelings. I told him I shouldn't have said an I didn't mean it.

The vulnerability is new. I've tried it before but have retracted into my shell in the past.

We have finished reading the first chapter of Love Busters as of last night.

We have a lot of people praying for us. Thank y'all.

Annointed, I encourage you to keep letting him know you'll need to talk later instead, like you did last night. It's understandable that you didn't want a big at that moment, it's hard to bond with someone after an AO, it talks a little time. You're doing great, injecting respect, I'm glad that resonated with you.

I had an AO today; it wasn't as nasty as normal but still argumentative. I wasn't humble. I wish I had been.

For the last several days, my hubby and I had a pretty hectic schedule with the kids, and we kept going to bed late (I was even going to bed later than him which is unusual). We weren't connecting or reading Lovebusters. We did go to the gym together last night, but DH had a painful problem in his back and neck and kept complaining about it.

When we got home we made sure the kids were all asleep, and I took a shower. Then I popped DH's back (even though I really don't like to do it...it makes me nervous..I have no training in that area whatsoever). He was in a lot of pain and couldn't wait until his chiropractor appt today. We watched some TV and then when we got in bed he asked for SF. I said that I wasn't feeling very close to him...

Then we fell asleep.

I could've done something to feel close to him. He could have done something to help me feel close, but we just went to sleep. And I dreamed he was mad at me all night.

When he came home for lunch today he did say that it hurt his feelings. I said that I didn't mean to hurt his feelings, I was just trying to tell him that I was feeling distant. He said that I basically just said "no." I could see why he felt that way since I just left my statement hanging. I wasn't saying no to sex... I was look for intimate sex.

I'm sure I'm all wrong here. I explained that it was similar to the part in Lovebusters where the wife felt "raped" when they had sex without intimacy, and he took great offense to that. I told him that I felt used sometimes when my needs aren't being met. He said if men did that to women and felt "used" everytime they were being nice and didn't get sex, then we'd never get anywhere!

That's when I was angry. I kept interrupting (dumb) and telling (not asking) him to stop trying to change how I feel about it. It felt like a threat: "If I don't get sex, I'm going to say I feel used when I have to still be nice." I told him that he was free to feel that way. Just don't try to change how I feel when we have sex without intimacy.

I'm sure I completely screwed this up! I guess I should have just met his need for SF. I just felt especially distant and didn't want to feel empty afterwards. Now he feels rejected.

No no no. You should POJA SF otherwise you will resent it.
Part of the problem is that stereotypically, "Women need intimacy to want SF, and Men need SF to feel intimate."

Part of the problem is that your ENs are not being met or he is Love Busting.
Maybe you could tell him "I understand that you felt rejected the other night, and I don't really want that to be the situation. I would rather feel close to you and want SF rather than have to tell you I am not feeling close and therefore don't want SF. I know it can be different for guys...the SF makes you feel closer but with women we want to feel close for SF. What would help with me feeling closer is <how he could meet an EN> and <how he could refrain from a love buster.>.
I want to feel close to my husband. Let's work on getting there together."

The old chicken and egg argument.

You complain about not feeling close, but then reject his attempt to be close. After all, there is nothing that gets you closer and more intimate than SF.

But that is your choice, and you have to live with the consequences of your choice.

So the question is, if you don't feel close, what are YOU DOING to get closer to him? Is rejecting SF getting you closer or further away?

Of course, the other side of the coin is reflected in what Wannabophim mentioned. If you resent SF, then it's not going to draw you close to him.

So rather than focus on what you think you did wrong, what can you do to negotiate a solution to the problem?

I.E. can you get beyond talking about how things make you feel and get to what you are going to do the next time this situation presents.

This program really isn't much about feelings, other than avoiding things you know make LB withdrawals and avoiding resentment. It's more about taking action.

So what actions can you and your husband take the next time this comes up?

"I'm sorry, dear. I don't really want to meet your need for conversation today, because I'm not feeling connected to you."

Take that perspective.

When SF, in your mind, becomes about fulfilling a need, and about making you and your spouse happy and in love, you will see that it is an opportunity to connect, and not currency paid as a reward for connection.

This goes for all Emotional Needs.

The resentment comes not from meeting our spouse's needs, but from our attitude about meeting those needs BEFORE we are even presented with the opportunity to meet them; in other words, our disrespectful judgements towards our spouses, and towards their emotional needs.

I disagree....I will have conversations with people that I won't have SF with. SF is a more intimate need than that.

Actually it's saying "I don't feel like meeting X emotional need." You can throw in DS, SF, C, etc.

The program relies on meeting each others ENs. She needs to express how she's feeling, he should ackowledge and do better. Teh answer is not for her to withold meeting his ENs.

No, she should not withhold the meeting of his emotional needs, but it should be done in a way that pleases them BOTH, not just ONE. For example, if my H asks me to have SF with him 5 times a day and I don't want to do that, then what is the solution? The solution is to use the POJA to find a way to meet his need in way that does not erode the love in our marriage. If she meets that need in a way that makes her unhappy, then pretty soon she won't be meeting that need at all.

It is the same with any other emotional need. If one of my EN's is converstation and my H comes home exhausted from a meeting, I am certainly not going to expect or demand that he meet that need when he doesn't feel like it. Besides I don't want to converse with someone when he is exhausted. I want to do it when he well rested and energetic.

t/j to kiltedthrower: howdy pardner!!

Hey, Melody! Wait! So you're saying you wouldn't follow him around the house from room to room demanding he talk to you or else???

Thank you Mel and KT for fleshing it out fully.

So I have been digesting all of this. Enlightened_Ex asked how I can avoid this in the future. The obvious answer is to meet each others' needs. Meeting his need for SF has been a problem due to so many factors, but if all those are stripped away I'd say the most defining problem would be my lack of feeling completely "safe" with him.

I finally met his need for SF last night after being sick for 2 days last week and then having a major blowup Sat. It was actually about marriage builders. My hubs doesn't see how POJA could ever work, and I told him that was discouraging to me since I'm not willing for either one of us to "lose" in negotiation. Then he said that I was not allowing him to have an opinion about MB because I told him I was discouraged by his stance. It has become one of the last strands of hope, and he shot it down. He's still willing to read though.

I then said that at least I was trying to bring solutions to the table. Instead of shooting down the things I suggest, what were his suggestions? He had none. He had to leave. I then told him not to come back. I deeply regret saying it since I'm actually not feeling as hopeless as I was in July.

We still keep going round and round, but I am being more truthful and am allowing myself a voice. I keep trying to remember to say "you may be right." Lord, help me.

And thank you ALL for your input! I'm out here drowning and your words put things in perspective. What you do on this board is invaluable!

He doesn't see it because you've not demonstrated how the program ensure he has his needs met.

If you are just now getting around to SF, then how is that showing him that the program and it's components such as the POJA are a valuable tool he can use to negotiate to have his needs met?

He doesn't see it because you haven't showed it to him. If you want him to buy off on the program, then you have to make a convincing sales pitch and provide continuing service after the sale.

So what's motivates him? What in the program would HE find appealing? Not what you find appealing, what would cause him to buy into the program.

Us the POJA to negotiate SF for the next week, and then fulfill the negotiated SF? Use the POJA to negotiate something that he wants to do in the near futures. Something days away that he wants to do so he can connect the POJA negotiation with getting to do that thing he wants to do but doean't feel like you are on-board.

You can't just say we are going to use the POJA because it's a good thing. You have to show him how using the POJA as well as the rest of the program provides him with a more fulfilling and wonderful life.

Maybe there are things he does for you that he resents. Think of something like that and say you are going to use the POJA to negotiate a solution he loves. If he doesn't want to do it then perhaps he can negotiate a solution where he doesn't have to perform the unpleasent task for you any longer...

But you have to take on the Missouri apporach and simply show him concrete exaples of the POJA in action and to his benefit.

Oh, one more thing. Why not just validate what he's said. If he doesn't see it, then instead of telling him how you feel, what could you have said to validate it?

How about acknowledge where he was and if he would be up for using it to address something he has a problem with such as the frequency oF SF or some unpleasant task as described above.

I just wanted to let you know my H is exactly like yours. I will be following your thread. **Hugz***

I've been meeting his SF needs pretty well I think. He said not too long ago that I was doing a good job meeting his needs. We have not been reading any more of Lovebusters, and as much as I hate to read it without him, I guess I'd better since I'm not doing so great lately with the AO.

I'm just going to lay out my frustration in my marriage bluntly at the risk of sounding judgemental. My husband went to seminary. We had plans to serve in the ministry. We quit the ministry not long after the affairs ended and we never got back into it. I have waited these 13 years for my husband to take a leadership role in our spiritual walk as a family.

Our family is not a gracious family. Our family is defensive because we all point fingers. Grace. That is what we need, and we just don't know what it looks like.

I realize that I am in control of myself and can show grace no matter what anyone else does. This is something I have struggled with so much. I get easily discouraged and fall into the old patterns which only shows me my weakness.

Recently I got so discouraged with my husband's frustration with God, that I told him I was unable to shoulder the burden of carrying him in his walk with Christ any longer. It was a tough conversation, and I had an AO at the end. I'm pretty sure I was disrespectful too.

The next day he said he'd like to start praying with me at night, and he has for the last 4 days or so.

Then last night we had an argument bc I asked him to take our youngest with him to get his haircut so I could actually get some work done. (She is 2 and working from home is becoming more and more difficult)

The back story is he had already tried to get his hair cut for the last hour and they didn't fit him in. Then he came home in a horrible mood and was just having an AO in general in frustration.. I called him out on it bc he was lashing out at pretty much everyone, and he felt I was disrespectful in doing so. I was saying low under my breath, "hey, watch how you're talking". He then decided to bring our kids to music lessons and was going to get a haircut in between. I said I needed him to bring our youngest so I could get my work done and he basically said no, that he didn't need her running around.

I told him he could put her in the stroller like I do when I get my haircut. He walked out the door with the older kids and left me with the toddler still eating dinner, a mess in the kitchen, and hours of work to be done. I felt abandoned.

We tried to talk it out last night, and I was stupid enough to try to do it while he was working on his other job. It was late and I was afraid we'd go to bed angry. I wasn't talking sweetly, and I don't know what I thought would be accomplished in the 30-45 min I wasted of his time.

Basically, I felt abandoned and disregarded, and he just wanted some time to himself. No POJA. What am I saying? We don't know how to POJA! After he finished work at around midnight he asked if I wanted to finish the conversation. I said that I didn't want to keep him up, I just wanted us to be better. He said he was sorry for being rude earlier, and I think I just laid there on the couch. I feel paralized in what to say sometimes. It just causes more problems, and I'm sure it's just my pride getting in the way. I don't feel safe to express my feelings.

All that being said, our best friends are now going thru infidelity and we have been transparent about our problems with it in the past and guided them thru marriage builders. The BH posts here and is getting good advice.

He sent us a message this morning about how cold his WW is, and it triggered me. Then my FWH called to say he'd be having a business lunch with his team today and sent me a copy of the invite. Both men and women to attend. I started feeling uncertain after the trigger and our unresolved conflict and sent this text:

Me: I really don't feel comfortable with you going out to lunch today.

FWH: Seriously!?!? I sent you the invitation. It will not look good if I don't go. Our entire group is going, half today, half next week. I'll tell you where and you can follow me and sit in the parking lot. Thanks for telling me how you feel. Frankly, I can't even tell if I'm mad or just hurt. Where's the win -win in this?? What is with this attitude? If that's the case then no bible study or worship cause I have no idea what goes on there and I'm left to trust, and accoding to you that could be dangerous.

Me: I was just telling you that I don't feel comfortable and you are punishing me. Go if you need to.