yeah that would have made shopping a whole different experience, and because food and meals are where we have the most family time together, it would build all the way across the board.

Taking time to enjoy the things in life that are nessesary to do, instead of them being hurry up and get them done chores, is a great way to bond.

100% agreed. Doing mundane things together is how we get a big part of our UA time. Many forum posters disagree with me on this, but we feel that if we enjoy whatever it is we're doing, we're together and paying attention to one another (talking, holding hands, etc.), and we're not doing it with our kids around, we count it as UA time.

Shopping is a big Recreational Companionship thing for my wife. Not as much for me, but I enjoy being with her so I go, and we find ways to make it fun. Like practicing the Policy of Joint Agreement on everything that goes in the cart These days we're pretty good at that playground...

HA HA!!!! I just read this. Been out of town as I mentioned....

H and I did some talking about the upcoming triggers. Part of it went well, part of it made me want to shake my head and say, "WHAT?!!!!"

UA time - whether mundane activities or special things are all about the atmosphere to me: how much you are connecting, not what activity you're doing.

As for the conversation - I will share more tomorrow probably. Right now I'm BEAT! I'll just say that I was a little aggravated that H made some comments that sound like he still justifies the affair, even though he knows how wrong it was. He still doesn't put the blame of the affair for almost ruining our marriage. And yeah, I know the affair was just a symptom - but I would like for him to agree with me that his infidelity is what almost cost him our marriage! I don't think he sees it that way. I'm not sure we can move forward until he does, quite frankly.

He spent the weekend trying to make me feel good and secure ... was very sweet...and I'm giving his actions credit. Right now though, I don't care for his "words". I put it aside because I did not want to lovebust and I thanked him for his honesty and let him know I did not agree. Now that we are home where it is an appropriate time to discuss it all, we are going to have to do so. It may be time for some professional help here!

Just adding a little...to vent.

This is not easy right now. I am trying not to think about the fact that a year ago I had to sneak out of bed, crawl to H's side, locate his phone in its hiding spot, sneak out of the room, and hide in the laundry room reading emails between H and OW. The descent into hell. The more I try not to think about it, the more I think about it. Trying to overwrite right now isn't happening because I'm thinking about how I would feel better if my H sounded more like some of the other FWS's I've read about. I want to hear how dang thankful he is and what an idiot he was and how OW was nothing and I am everything!!!

I feel like stomping my feet like a 3-yr old because I'm not getting that!

Oh - believe me, I've told my husband I need his support and all of that. WHy can't he just do it the way I want it - need it - instead of HIS way?! Grrrrr

stomp stomp!!!

The problem is with his guilt. He still thinks he was right? Justifying the A? He is still foggy, and needs to come down from his high, of being the man who does not make mistakes.

This might take time, and it is also part of the process, as he sees how much he hurt his beatiful bride, with his ego and selfishness. My hopes are that he recogninizes the pain he caused, as he returns to earth, and it will take some soulsearching.

Hope you guys are following the MB program, and doing the work laid out in it, and that his pride can take a back seat to his marriage. We all can make some very big mistakes, it how we bounce back from them that means the most to others.

I've got that.

It don't help. The words certainly don't match up with the actions, so it really rings empty.

Let current actions speak, rather than any lip service about past actions.


First; since when do we really know what we want?

Other than that; remember, you have to communicate how you want your needs met. Frequent refreshers on the ENQ/LBQ helps that tremendously.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.... shopping. Oh, shopping.

I H-A-T-E shopping with my wife, but I love shopping for my wife.

I also really enjoy thrift shopping.

The difference?

Well, I can think of one time that I went shopping with her, and it took her 4 hours to put together 4 outfits.

Ugh. Meltdown.

However, shopping for her, I can be engaged - I assemble outfits and she tries them on. I get to; help her dress in a manner which fulfills my (albeit low) need for AS, be engaged and enjoy shopping as UA/RC.

Just food for thought.

Fact: you can't change anybody else's thoughts.
Fact: you should not be discussing the affair anymore.
Fact: He came back with his hat in his hands, very remorseful for his affair, didn't he?

If those three facts are true, it's time for you to work on you a little bit. Go read and digest this article:
http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Emotional%20Memory.html

The most important thing to retain from this article is that your brain is always pulling memory "files" constantly. Your job is to recognize when it's pulling files that will probably have an emotional payload. That payload -- actual chemical releases in your brain -- is typically delayed by about one to two minutes from the memory file being pulled. When you recognize a memory file being pulled that has a powerful emotional payload, you must learn how to circumvent it by putting something else in its place that relates to it somehow.

In my case, I imagined OM as an 8-bit Nintendo character getting smashed flat by Donkey Kong. It works for me, but probably won't work for you!

If you catalog a few all-purpose funny images to stop the emotional payload of memories, and begin applying them whenever you pull a heavy file, within about two weeks you'll see results. The payload of certain particularly painful memories will be corrupted so that it doesn't deliver a potent dose of "downer" chemicals to your brain, but may be indifferent or even humorous.

Well, in the light of day I can be a little more rational and less emotional. I may have overstated it a bit because I was hurting last night. He doesn't think he was right and doesn't justify his affair in the sense of still believing it was OK or that he was entitled to do so. It's more that he still feels that when he had the affair it was because things were so bad between us that he was sure it was over. So, while wrong, he never would have done it had he thought there was any possibility of us staying together. In other words, he doesn't feel the affair was the breaking point but that the affair was the result of the breaking point.

Conversely, I maintain that while we certainly had not made our marriage a priority, it wasn't like things were so awful (pre-affair) that we were headed for divorce. I was SHOCKED when he dropped the first bomb of "wanting out". He had made no attempts to talk to me about things being off. THerefore, my belief is that him getting involved with OW (albeit at first just conversations via facebook/email) was THE straw. As we know, once a wayward spouse starts investing in another person, the BS might as well be dirt. Nothing I could do at that point would convince him that I was willing to change to meet his needs that he was claiming had not been met at that point. Thus, the AFFAIR is what caused his heart to turn black. It wasn't that it turned black and THEN he had the affair... but that's what he's claiming because I honestly think he still believes that.

See, it's more like how Dr. Harley describes a FWW would be than a FWH... BUT...I will add that there may be something else going on here. During all this our youngest (S15) was having issues and I took him to counseling and to a Child Psychologist. He was tested and is considered borderline Aspergers. He is my H to a tee. If S15 is borderline Aspergers, it's likely that H is as well. If you don't know anything about Aspergers, it's a syndrome that means the person's brain is wired a bit differently, esp. in the emotional/social dept. It has nothing to do with intelligence, but has a lot to do with relationships. People with Aspergers often behave very odd. You see them depicted in movies at times. They lead very normal lives but are usually considered eccentric by people who don't know anything about the syndrome. Now: my H (nor my son) behave that way. Yet, they both have traits that are definitely along those lines. It's hard to explain but I think this rationalization deal of H's may be related.

Again, it isn't that he is totally trying to justify his affair. It's that he doesn't see himself as someone who went out and cheated on a perfectly good marriage because he was a jerk who just wanted to go score with someone else.

I hope too that he can see the pain. He's not much of a soulsearcher type though. Never has been. Asperger types avoid that - and in fact, may not even be able to do it. My question then becomes, does it matter? Should it matter? I'm not sure. Maybe.
He expects me to just try that I am the only one he wants and he is committed....and I can't do it. I can't just trust because he says so. Doesn't work that way - not now!

We have been doing the MB program and doing very well with it. Our UA time did dwindle when my dad was in the hospital and such, but for the most part, we've done a really good job. I will add that H does it wholeheartedly....doesn't begrudge it at all.

I just don't know whether to dwell on this fact that he doesn't fully get what he did.

Well, I THINK I know what I want, but you could be right - even if I got it, it may not be the be all end all like I think it would. My husband does she me actions - and that's why I am in this quandry. I want the words WITH the actions because I want to know the intent behind the actions are as much to make amends as they are "for the future" if that makes sense. If he's doing the actions because it's what will get us to the right kind of future, then that's great! But...in my opinion, it should also be because he wants to make up for the ugliness of the affair. Right?

I don't know: maybe all that matters is that he is fully participating in recovery, to have the future we both want. Maybe that's enough. But, right now it's not enough for me to have closure.

As for shopping - my H likes to shop for/with me as long as it's not too long, lol. He especially likes picking out shoes for me that we both like.

You're right that you can't change anyone else's thoughts! Oh, but we could - that would be great.

We don't discuss the affair anymore. In fact, we didn't discuss it much in the first place. But, how do you get support for triggers and such without conjuring up some facet of, "Yeah...this is because of that?" I mentioned I was triggering and having a rough time because it all happened a year ago. Of course he knows what "it" is.

He came back, remorseful, ready and willing to do the work. I don't know if I would say total hat in hands - and that's where my issue is. Should I have addressed it then? Probably. Did I see it then? No. I knew he was more than willing to meet all my conditions and that's what mattered. I figured the hat in hands would come later - after withdrawal was done with. Then, after the initial period we went into honeymoon phase and nothing seemed to matter! Now that honeymoon phase is over and I'm facing the year anti-versaries, my mind is thinking on things I hadn't thought about this whole time...until now! Maybe that's unusual, but it is what it is, so I have to deal with it. For instance, I never once thought (before this week) about how they must've talked after he flew home from his tryst. THe emails, texts, phone calls....how they probably professed their desire and longing for one another... All the while, I was sitting here, trying to be the best dang wife I could, making his favorite meals, cleaning his clothes, and meeting his needs - unaware! Why did I never think about this before? I don't know. But I am now. And I'm mad - and sad.

That's just an example.

But yes - you're right - it is time to work on me. I just feel like that's all I've done is work on me! I've not expected anything of him in terms of him working on him. I've expected him to work on the marriage - and he has. But...where's his "H working on H" while Sunny's been working on Sunny in addition to work on the marriage?

Don't worry: I'm not lovebusting. I'm trying to work this out here and not allowing DJs and such to creep in. Of course, with O&H I have got to tell him how I'm feeling about all of this.

THanks for that link! I will definitely check it out.

Thanx for the detailed response SD.

What I read in your words, is that you don't think he realizes the pain he inflicted, or the insecure place he put you in, and he just seems to gloss it over, as a mistake.

I am no expert on Aspergers, but I am an expert on mistakes, being very hardheaded at times, and I am sure, that I could be classified as Aspergers, as you have stated it. Socio-relationship issues? Had a lot of them when I was younger, and still picture myself as a loner. But I relate that with my childhood, and my compulsion for a stable family, and my incredible insecuritys that came from my poor Dads treatment of everyone he was around.

So I became an over achiever, and it was very important to me to get my Dads approval, even though as a little child, I did not understand, that Dad could not approve of anything, because he himself had major issues socially. Nothing was ever good enough for Him, and he was a tyrant, but like a brave little soldier, I was determined to help him tame the world, when the truth is, most of His problems came from within His own mind.

His behavior affected everyone, and being the only Son and older than my sister, I could see the problems that affected Her also. My Mom was and is an incredibly strong woman, and my Dad was a stubborn headstrong man. The clash of wills between the two was like an electric fence wired to the A bomb, that I felt it was my job to difuse.

There was no drug abuse or drinking, my father imploded from the inside. It could be trace back I am sure, to a boy who also was sensitive and intellegent, who worked hard instead of learning to read, and was taught to be quiet, rather than express himself. This I knew about my Dad, he was very misunderstood, and also so distant from people, and in that way all alone. He was a sensitive and emotionally charged Man, whos fears got the best of him.

But now that said, what does it have to do with your H? Learned behavior patterns to response. If he has been battling with social problems, for whatever reason/diagnosis modern behavior anyalisis wants to put a label on it, it is likely his affair is such a nightmare part of his life, he just wishes for it to go away. It still may be such a big mistake for him, that he does not have the ability to see, or even be able to see, what he considers the details of the big mistake. He may consider it such a unforgivable sin, that all he can do is put it behind him, and his only protection is that it was a mistake.

This might have been a coping skill he developed when younger, when he just was overwhelmed, by whatever social situations he encountered, that he could not change, and could not understand. He only knew that at the time he strayed, that something was wrong, and that was enough for him to search for relationship, to start again. Because one thing he knows, he needs relationship, we all do.

But men are great at lumping up all the issues, and not paying attention to the details. They work for the future, and learn from the past, but today can slip right by them. That is the great thing about having a wife who is more connected to the now, and can keep them grounded. Woman are wired for relationship with such intensity men just don't get it. A Pastor at my church says,"Woman can have a relationship with a salt shaker". Enviroment is very important to them, and today matters to them just as much as yesterday and tommorow.

Men are about achievment, protection, and territory, and when they are threatened, they will protect them, many times at the cost of peace of mind and a look into what they love the most, the mind and heart of the woman they love. They truly are most of the time, amazed that she loves him, when all he can see is the failure he has been in so many ways.

When God said, "It is not good that Man be alone", he gave Adam someone who could reflect relationship to him. In a way that He would have to see, that it was not all about him. I commend you on your patience and understanding, and that he will see what happened when he ran for that short time ago, in time,as it is revealed, that he needs you and your mind as much as he needs his own.

Keep up with the UA time, and don't let the details of life get you separated from each others hearts. I believe that as he processes what this meant to you, and what damage it caused, he will be even more repentant, as he takes his part of the responsibility of the marraige relationship. It can be the most growth inducing grasp on the inner workings of the mind, the heart, and the spirit, but it takes humility and instuction, to follow a plan to its end. In the end, it is the process we are in love with, as well the person who is part of the process

CP....what can I say.....THANK YOU! That was very beautifully written and put some things in perspective for me.

I am tapping my toes because I want him to see everything as I see it...now! I keep thinking, "it's been a year, darn it all, doesn't he get it?" When, in fact, a year is really not enough time and I know that. He may never actually see things the way I do. My trying to force him to isn't going to do it.

Here's the thing though: as much as he wants to put it behind him - well - I want to put it behind me too! Unfortunately, I have trauma associated with this that won't allow me to. My head and heart still hurt and I keep thinking that if only he were to be like other FWSs that I read about...I could move on. I of all people (having studied much psychology) should know that everyone has different personalities and different ways of doing things. Yet, so much of a wayward's behavior is "classic" and alike that I'm using to lumping everyone in together.

My H had a very different childhood than I did. His family was screwed up and ripe with affairs. Everyone cuts and runs at the first sign of hard work in a relationship. It's no surprise that he did the same. They have no clue how to truly work through conflict. My family wasn't all that great about it either - lots of stuffing going on - but my parents have been married over 50 years so I'm used to sticking things out.

Anyway, I will continue on the journey - being patient - but looking to not stuff things either. We'll get there... I'm sure of it! I can't be positive there's no hills along the way still to climb, but I know we'll be better than ever. I get a little tired of having to be the "strong" one in this - the one that manages the relationship constantly... but he's doing the work so that's all I can ask.

Thanks again, CP! You really hit home with what all you wrote and I appreciate it!

Heres the thing, how much has he studied to understand what his responses are in such situations? This can be a bonding thing for you both, and a revelation also that you can learn together.

I don't mean educate him,as much as I mean share knowledge, knowing both of you have different perspectives, and different reasons for having them.

There is a saying I like to rememeber as much as possible, and it goes like this.

"There are 3 kinds of people in the world,

Those that make things happen
Those who watch things happen
Those who wonder what happened"

If like you said, his family was ripe with conflict avoidance, he might not have had the training to attack the problems, and that is the responsibility of any good parent, to teach thier children to deal with the conflicting emotions in thier life.

Face your fears, and most of the time, you find out they are just ghosts and lies you have built up in your own imagination.

You WILL succeed in your quest because it is what you KNOW is right. When we go on feelings and emotion, we are standing in quicksand, but when we stand on knowledge, we are on bedrock.

The key here might be for H to take the lead, because one thing I know, the man must be at least secure enough that he knows whats going on, and its a shared life after all.

I get the feeling that your H is defensive, and bassically afraid to talk about feelings, or finds them to be very uncomfortable to even admit he has them. Maybe thats true, or maybe its not, but with the problems he had with his own family, and how he survived them, it would not surprise me that he too "stuffs" his emotions down.

But with continued UA time, open and honest communication, and most of all, disspelling the fears that you will not get throught this, and that the plan will work, I beleive you will get the result you are looking for.

God bless SD

DNM... man. I was waiting for the sage advice here.

So... I'll repeat the advice that I got from DNM;

Review other things that might be declining your mood;

Have you got in your 20+ hours of UA time? If not, discuss it with your H and see what you can do to improve it.

Have you been getting enough sleep? If not, discuss it with your H and POJA way to improve it.

Have you been sick? If yes, discuss it with your H and POJA a way to address it.

Have you had any triggers? If yes, discuss it with your H and POJA a way to eliminate the trigger.




My personal quick list goes like this;

Have we been getting enough UA time?

What are my top 3 EN's?

Are they being met in the way that I like?

What are her worst 3 LB's?

Is she avoiding them?

What are her top 3 EN's?

Am I meeting them in the way which she likes?

What are my worst 3 LB's?

What am I doing to avoid them?

If the quick list doesn't fix it, I print out the ENQ and LBQ and we review.


Another thing that helped me was my answer to this question;

"Am I going to let infidelity determine the course of my life?"

My answer; H-E-DOUBLEHOCKEYSTICKS NO!

Don't care which celebrity or politician cheated. Not worried about what's going on down the block. No longer going to look at every song/poem/movie and how it could be about infidelity.

My life. My way.

... but I'm feeling much better now.

Once again, thanks CP! You know, after reading your latest post it struck me that I'm approaching this all wrong. I'm trying to fix the outer layer instead of looking into the inner core.

You make a very good point.. it IS time for H to take the lead. He *likes* to leave the "psychology/relationship" stuff up to me, but you know what? The biggest issue he had with us is that he felt he had no say in what our life was. The crazy part of that is I am not a nag. I am not a control freak. I'm not high maintenance. (And he would agree to all of that.) BUT, I DID take the lead when it came to so many things because he just didn't and someone had to. Well...he feels good about us now because he knows he chose this life - chose us. But if things are going to be different, he MUST take the reins and lead his family. Honestly, I don't think he really wants to. It's a lot of mental energy to lead. Yet I need him to. HE needs him to whether he wants to or not.

He definitely stuffs things - and yes, he is defensive and probably afraid to say how he feels - or he was.

These are the things we need to work on now. I have a feeling if we concentrate on these things I won't be nearly so triggered!

3H THANK YOU!

Very practical advice and right on target, I must say! I feel like I've gotten the 1-2 punch this morning that I needed. CP hit the deep ball and you have provided me with some practicals I needed to be reminded of - so much!

I am printing your list and putting it in my purse. I HAVE been sick - and stressed - and there are other reasons my mindset has been off, along with the anti-versary triggers. (Geez, could other stuff just not have waited being that I have enough on my plate?!)

Not letting infidelity determine your life.... movies/songs, etc... You know what? I truly need to adopt that sentiment! Not need to, MUST, in fact. I have to stop hearing songs and wonder if those songs are what "they" were like...or remind him of her...same with movies. (Watching shows/movies and infidelity popping up has been hard on both of us.) Of course, I keep telling H that we have to stop letting those things have such power. We have to take it back. I'm just not sure how in a practical sense. (We typically say nothing and just let it pass.)

A rather frequent issue has been OW's name. It comes up ALL the time as it's very popular. I can't stand it! We both avoid saying it at all costs. Just last week someone was asking about a friend of S17's and her name was OW's name and neither of us would even say it even though we both knew it...

Anyway, I guess I just keep waiting for these things to not matter. In time, I'm hoping they won't. We obviously still have work to do, however. The practicals help!

So...now I have it in my mind what needs to happen. I just need a plan to make it happen.

I'm going to ask H to read a few articles from here or go back over HNHN maybe and to highlight things he gets from it. I don't want to be bossy and give him a time frame - or should I?

I'm also going to ask for more depth in our UA time: not to hash over what happened, but to talk about deeper things - our dreams, our goals... about sharing things and connecting more.

This might be hard for H: he's not a deep person. I think it needs to happen though.

Of course..only if he enthusiastically agrees!

OK, so...that's not much of a plan but it's all I can think of at the moment. lol

Good, then he can make it an adventure, to explore what the marriage can be, instead of a chore he feels incompetent to even attempt

Inner child thinking here, and baby steps, just how we learn to do anything

What do we have, but the time to learn about each other, and to learn how to love each other, warts and all?

Finding strength in our weakness, for when we are weak, He is strong.

So what makes you think he is not deep?

Maybe you are mistaking his reluctance for serious talk about relationship, for a lack of depth?

Just some questions I'm throwing out there. BTW..

This stuff is like flexing a muscle that hasn't been used much, and the diversity is part of the effort in scheduling the time for your "relationship workouts"

Just a suggestion

Exactly! I don't want it to be a chore. That's not what this is all about, that's for sure. The thing is... H is really happy right now. So, in his world, things are fine - don't need to change. I mean, there are struggles but none of them are about our marriage: finances, kids, job.... He is great with us being just as we are, right now. It's me who is not. SO, in that... I can see why there's not a lot of motivation for him to do anything differently. The taker in me says, "And why not...I'm the one that's done all the changing here!" Yet, I know he wants me to be happy. I believe that. So, I believe he is willing to take this journey to the next level.

I'm constantly reminded of a ladies bible study I did last summer that was truly a gift from Heaven - about going through Egypt. "What God calls you to, He will bring you through."