Here are some radio shows about this issue. Dr Harley also gives talks to MOPS, mothers of preschoolers, about how to find time for UA time.

radio clip here go to 7:00 in the clip and they discuss finding child care.

I will look for more later tonight and post them.

Ok, I must have the old version of HNHN. It doesn't say anything about UA time needing to be out of the house. It says "Any recreational activity that allows for affection, intimate conversation, and even sexual fulfillment while engaging in the activity is a good candidate." My copy even says watching TV together counts towards UA if "during the show, you are expressing affection to each other and your focus of attention is primarily on each other, then it counts." Page 98 of HNHN.

I get that UA outside of the house is optimal, and we will try to do that as much as we can (I'll look into swapping). But, I don't hear him saying that UA time spent in the home doesn't count AT ALL. I think he is saying you get the most out of it outside the
home, which totally makes sense. If you can provide a link to something where he specifically says UA time at home does NOT count, that would be great. Thanks!

Check out his recent post to markos and Prisca about UA time at home, Thats pretty clear. He spoke about it a couple of days last week too on his radio show, specifically about quality UA time. In his article on UA time he says TV time doesn't count - unless you are making out in front of the TV. I suspect you might have a pretty old copy of HNHN. If you get the new one, go to the back half of the chapter on recreational companionship. It has some good stuff in it!

P.s I have contacted Dr Harley about being the need of being absolutely and explicitly specific to the point of being legalistic on the issue of UA time because of the tendency to cut corners. I explained that for many this is an exercise much akin to looking for loopholes in the Bible. They will spend most of their time looking for rationalizations to avoid UA time or to redefine it so they have to make no/little changes to call it good.

Just think, if every one spent as much time finding ways to do it instead of ways to not do it, they would all have great marriages!

Dr. Harley: "When you see a movie together, the time you are watching it doesn't count toward your time for undivided attention (unless you behave like the couple who sat in front of my wife and me last week!). It's the same with television and sporting events. You should engage in these recreational activities together, but the time needed for undivided attention is different -- it's the time you pay close attention to each other." http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

I read his post to Prisca and Markos several times. I also reread his articles on this site about UA. He's says it's best to spend UA time away from home, but he doesn't say that UA time at home doesn't count at all. It seems like you are saying UA ONLY counts if it is spent away from home and I haven't seen that written or said by Dr H.

My version of HNHN was printed in 2011 (I just ordered it new in March), but I'll see if I can find the copy you are referring to at the book store.

I understand that you are concerned about people cutting corners, but I don't think it's good to say that the majority of UA time MUST be out of the house because when couples can't accomplish that, for whatever reason, they will just say Marriage Builders is not for them and give up...which would be much worse than cutting corners.

You are the best there is on this forum and I always appreciate your opinions though, so I'll do my best to try to do more UA away from home. Thanks ML.

Of course some UA time at home counts- where are you going to have sex, after all - but the majority of if DOES need to be spent away from home in order to be effective. Does it sound like Dr Harley believes that UA time at home "counts" for Markos and Prisca? He continually talks about "dates", but he does need to be absolutely legalistic about this because as you have shown here, folks will always look for loopholes. Obviously there is a huge difference between time spent at home when there are kids interrupting and you are tired versus going out when you are at your best. For example, most kids aren't really asleep until 10pm. By 10pm most people are exhausted and look like hell. That leaves 1 hour of very questionable "UA" time. (time after 11pm doesn't count at all, per Harley)

What will cause people to give up up is when they do not get any results from this program because they pencil whipped it. Failure is discouraging and is what causes people to give up. Keep that in mind. Success motivates, failure de motivates. And people will fail if they cut corners. Like Harley says in Effective Marriage Counseling, his program does not work without this step, so it pays to get it right. I am all for corner cutting where it pays off, but this is not a place where there is a payoff.

And yes, most couples CAN accomplish that. It is that they won't. It is inconvenient so they don't even try. It has been my experince that when someone spends as much time looking for ways to get out of house as they do looking for excuses NOT TO, that they often come up with solutions.

I've been reading this this thread with interest.

So....just curious....the time dh and I spend together at home on the weekends when we have no children in the house (off to their other parents' houses)....isn't that good UA time? We have the BEST time together. I can't imagine going out could be better.

It could BE as long as there are not distractions, such as TV, children, etc. The key is to give undivided attention to each other - not just being in the same house! - meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs, when you are at your BEST. And that usually happens when you are dressed up and GOING OUT with most couples.

In my marriage, we have no children at home but when we are at home we don't give each other undivided attention usually. [not consistently enough to be effective] He is over there right now watching some army flick and I am sitting here next to him on my laptop. So, even though we are together, this does not count as undivided attention time because our attention is not on each other. For our UA time today, we are leaving to out for dinner at a town about an hour away. We have a 3 hour block for today away from home.

Make sense? The goal is to do what you did when you were dating. By doing that, you sustain the love in your marriage. And most people did not stay home when they were dating, they went out.

This is not true for us. Our kids are always in bed by 8pm and they don't get up (unless they are sick, which is rare). That leaves 2 hours of good UA time every night. Now, if we spend that time talking, cuddling, or playing games together (we love games...cards, chess, poker, etc.) would that time count towards UA if we make a point of ignoring the household stuff and focus on each other?

Like I said, we will do our best to have more UA outside of the home, but I will be very discouraged if you say the above examples do not count because there may be many weeks when we are not able to arrange dates outside the home.

Wouldn't you be more discouraged if your UA time was ineffective? I would think that would be very discouraging. So, if I were you, I would find a way to get out as much as possible to make your UA time as effective as possible. Otherwise you will be discouraged when you see no benefit. Instead of asking "does this count?" you should be finding ways to make it as effective as possible.

That is where I would focus. Find a way to make it happen. Look for creative ways to get out of the house on dates. Even drives to a park, a bookstore, Walmart, etc, would be effective. I know when I go OUT with my husband it is a very different atmosphere from our home.

I used to think the "date night" thing was pretty funny until I ran into problems with my marriage. Now I wish I saw it for everything that it was. It's really funny how I'm understanding all of this now as I read more and more.

Did you know that Dr Harley doesn't believe in "date night?" He believes in "date NIGHTS."

I totally agree and I'm sorry I got away from doing those things in my relationship.

Don't feel alone, my friend, most of us did too.

I'm so thankful for finding this board though I feel like it's giving me people to talk to. I used to remember hearing about what a horrible thing regret is. Isn't that the truth.

Ok, I see what you are saying about effectiveness. I think what might be effective for you, may not be as effective for us. For me, it makes no difference whether we are talking at home or some cafe somewhere. In fact, I prefer to have intimate conversation at home (preferably in bed together), than out where strangers will be distracting us. For ME, having IC at home is MORE EFFECTIVE than when we are out.

I love your idea of asking yourself "Is this effective?" That is a great rule of thumb. Every couple will have varying levels of effectiveness by activity. For you, time spent at home is not effective, so you guys need to go out to have effective UA. For others, being at home is more effective than going out.

For us, we would find sitting in front of the fireplace with a glass of wine playing chess with each other more effective than going to Wal-mart together. Again, depends on the couple. Everyone is different, but if every couple asks themselves the effectiveness question, they can't go wrong.

See, maybe this is why we differ. When H and I dated, neither of us had much money, so we didn't go out much. We spent most of our time at my apartment or his, playing games, cuddling or talking. That could be why we find these things effective now.

But keep in mind, that Dr Harley does not consider it very effective. He doesn't consider it the greatest use of UA time. When couples are dating, for example, they go OUT. They are not staying home babysitting. They get dressed up and they go out. Sure, some at home time could be used to bolster UA time.

The problem with having UA time at home when you have children is that children do wake up so I think you are fooling yourself about it being more romantic. The phone does ring, laundry needs to be done, it is late at night when you are most tired and don't look your best. How "romantic" is it to be sitting in front of a fireplace when your child wakes up screaming or comes out 15 times because he is scared? Whereas, when we are out roaming the aisles of Walmart chatting and holding hands, we are not disrupted by our own children. [other people's children are not our problem, thankfully! ] I raised 2 very well behaved boys and they routinely got up after we put them to bed and/or laid in bed and make noise until 10. One boy was a yo-yo and the other laid in bed yakking until 10.


So, I think its real important to be honest about what is quality and what is not and ask yourself if you are not allowing inconvenience to drive your thinking. Because pencil whipping, spinning, or cheating at the POUA only cheats you.

Were you babysitting?