Wow it must be in the water. 3 strong women ready to stand up for themselves and make the man in our lives pull their own weight with in a week of each other.

Boy did you hit it square on the head, NG: that's exactly what I keep looking for - just compensation for the hurt he caused. I want his remorse to be as high as the pain I have endured. Looking back I don't think I expected it early on because I had just read SAA where Dr. Harley speaks of how you need to focus on the present and future. He talks of "Sue" never being really sorry. He even states that he doesn't recommend the FWS apologize unless they really mean it. Now, H did apologize, but I've never heard what I read other FWS's saying - things like, "I am so thankful you stuck by me," or expressing feelings of deep guilt. Dr. Harley goes on to say that instead of focusing on the remorse or resentment you feel as the BS, you take care of the 4 steps towards recovery. I reminded myself this by reviewing SAA at 4am when I couldn't sleep this morning.

When H and I were first in recovery, we were both so careful about not committing LBs and treating each other well. I was VERY focused on present & future. So was Mr. Sunny. Now, I think I'm looking back and am dissatisfied. As I explained it to H yesterday, we are doing well, but we have NOT arrived. (Not that I think you ever totally arrive. Gotta keep working.) I am still looking for just compensation. I also have feelings of, "if he's not REALLLLY remorseful, he may still be justifying what he did - and if he still justifies - can we truly recover?"

I did share my needs as I was reminded to do upthread. H has done better. We haven't gotten the grill yet but he's helped out a lot more recently with meals. (We looked at grills but we ended up having to buy a new dishwasher instead, grrr.) The whole reason he was going to take off yesterday was so we could review where we need to do better and that didn't happen.

It is hard to balance telling him where I still have pain without bringing up the affair or the past, which I'm not supposed to do. Yesterday I told him I still had feelings that haunted me...and it was hard. I'm not sure what he can do to make me feel better except what he won't do - which is show this deep remorse that I would like. It's very possible that it is similar to what you said: I think he still feels I was so bad that while still in the wrong, his resentment of me had built up to the point where he was going to be gone, affair or no affair. (I call BS, of course.)

SO...what did I do that was so wrong? I've admitted my faults: I struggled with depression for several years pre-affair. I let myself go some and I focused a lot more on the kids than H. I was not wise with money which is a huge complaint of his - although, I never hid anything from him. I had become an isolated person who wasn't very interesting, all things considered. I didn't work outside the home - had been a stay at home mom for years - but I didn't manage my time at home well either. Because I suffered with depression, everything seemed like a huge chore to me and it showed in my demeanor.

Now: I "fixed" all of that. I got help. I went back to school to better myself and to have some personal goals. I started eating better - doing my hair, makeup, etc... every day again. Now I feel great about me - as does H!

Here's where the rubber meets the road: I paid MIGHTILY for my sins, did I not? Not just by H having the affair either... I also got to hear about how awful I was: how I had no value, how H couldn't stand me - how he gave me a "C" as a mother - by being yelled at - and spied on. All of the nastiness I endured from H while he was involved with SkankHO....no one deserves that unless they're a child abuser or something. So, when H commented back to my telling him I still had pain with "he chooses not to dwell on the past because he doesn't want to feel that bitterness he felt towards me back then," I replied, "I already heard all about that and paid the price for those negative feelings towards me." (He did not reply.)

SO...heck yes I still feel I do not have just compensation. I don't negate that I played a role in our marriage not being good pre-affair. Why the heck does he think I was willing to change and give him a 2nd chance after all he did? Of course, he had never verbalized any unhappiness with me, but that does not absolve my wrong-doings.

I don't expect H to suffer as I did in order to get even - but I think I would just like it acknowledged that I suffered to the extent I did. He has no idea.

WOW..this got long! Bottom line: I don't think I am ever going to get that acknowledgement. I just have to trust Dr. Harley's words that if we continue working the program as it is meant to be done that my resentment will fade and I won't feel the need for such acknowledgement.

I know it sounds like I am not happy - but that's not true. I keep holding on to the positives - and looking to the examples I stated just days ago about my blossoming respect (once again) for my husband. But yes, it is hard feeling that in some way H must think we are even in our badness. I have to respect his honesty. Better he is open with his feelings than give lip service just to make me feel better.

You too, LD??? I'll have to check out your thread!

Hmmm....just had a thought: after writing all I did about wanting just compensation, perhaps H thinks he HAS paid his dues. To him, I bet my exposing the affair was "payment" enough. He had to deal with what his children thought of him - and my brother and sister-in-law (whom he respects). He had to deal with angry SkankHO and being worried about her (supposedly) abusive husband coming after him. He had to face friends that he knows were aware of the situation.

He never complained about any of this - well, not after deciding to reconcile anyway. He did face his comeuppance gracefully in that department.

Maybe he thinks dealing with all of that was suffering enough for his crimes.

Just some afterthoughts.

I want his remorse to be as high as the pain I have endured....I've never heard what I read other FWS's saying - things like, "I am so thankful you stuck by me," or expressing feelings of deep guilt.

How does that old saying go? "Be careful of what you wish for - because you just may receive it!"

I have often told HFD that his wife's intense introspection reminded me of mine's. One day (Spring 2010) I came home after doing a game to find her sitting in the living room crying. I asked her what was going on, and she said, "When I walked into the house today, it struck me that if you hadn't stuck by me, what I had today would have been my lot forever - empty home, empty heart, empty life!"

This was about ten months after d-night, and kicked off roughly a two-month struggle to restore her self-acceptance(?) to reasonable levels.

I'm not bright - or experienced - enough to state that FWHs are as prone to this self-flagellation as FWWs, but I urge you to take care in wishing that his remorse is as high as your pain. Remorse at high levels can quickly become self-loathing, (as "I did a awful thing" adds "...so I must be an awful person!"), and self-loathing is tricky to correct. And from the view of a recent passenger through that area, seeing a lately wayward spouse suffer, just to know he's suffering, is not as much fun as it first appears. "Equality" might not be advisable, but "proportionate" is certainly fair.

Let's take this carefully and cogently. (PB: Engineering logic alert!) What insult to your person was most egregious? More specifically, what "hit" you, and where?

You mention that he said you were careless with money. Are you now POJA'ing such things? Does he acknowledge your improvement in that area? Have him DOCUMENT his satisfaction that things are better and his appreciation of your fiduciary performance.

This does not have to be extensive. A two-minute e-mail saying that things are improving financially, with your efforts, written in his words will suffice. And if the SOB can't find two minutes in a week of 168 hours, DIVORCE HIM! (I might be just kidding.)

When you're satisfied with this compensation, start working on another.

It's important for him (and you) to do this NOW, while the crisis is still fresh. If you let it drag on, your resentment for these unpaid debts will inhibit your enlistment into a better union.

(And btw: There's a rookie chef recipe for your FWH in "What's For Dinner".)

This makes a lot of sense, NG.

We have emailed quite a bit about finances, actually, and he HAS acknowledged improvement by me in this area as well as others. So, no need for divorce. LOL We POJA financial matters all the time now. He routinely says how proud he is of me for the changes I have made. Naturally, I appreciate it, but the cynic in me says, "Oh...so I deserve fidelity because you're pleased with me NOW. You weren't perfect either, bucko!" LOL

But...you're right. I don't wish to see H suffer. I don't wish self-loathing on him. I wouldn't want to live with that person.

AND... I must add - I was very convicted this morning in church. Darn preacher had to go preach a sermon about letting go of the past and not hanging on to hurts - deservedly so or not - because it will show in your actions. Who you are and what you carry on the inside DOES affect how you come across on the outside no matter how hard you try and hide it. He was right. There were some things he said that I'm sure were good for H to hear as well, but I truly tried to focus on what it meant for me.

Do I hang onto the hurt because it gives me a sense of "You owe me!" ??? Do I want it for leverage to make sure he treats me right and is willing to meet my needs? I don't know. Maybe. If that's the case, I need to stop and stop yesterday! I need to remember I deserve that just for being me and not because someone needs to make something up to me.

I can appreciate the engineer logic since Mr. Sunny is an engineer, btw!

Funny you mention the recipe. I just reminded H that he said HE would cook dinner on weekends!

Just a reminder, Sunny; assuming his level of remorse is a DJ. Assuming his feelings based on how you feel you would behave, or how he should behave, is a DJ.

As you can see, a Disrespectful Judgement has the ability to withdraw from BOTH of your accounts. From yours while holding it. From his if you state it.

Review UA time, and both of your ENs and LBs.

Well, I didn't assume it based on how I would behave but on past experience of hubby's behavior and attitudes from the past. But, regardless...it is a DJ for me to assume it at all.

That's the hard part. As a former BS, you have to deal with these negative emotions and residual pain. So, your love bank in regards to your spouse fluctuates when you are triggered. Yet, you have to be careful not to commit a LB or withdraw from your spouse's love bank. It feels unfair, but I know that is how it has to be.

See...when we Plan A during our spouse's waywardness, we are showing remorse: showing we know we need to be a better spouse than we were previously. We don't really fill up our WS's love bank because it can't be filled while they are in the affair. However, we are at least neutralizing some of the negativity. Then, upon recovery...we still have the greater mental work for the most part. We have to meet needs, etc.. all while dealing with the HUGE withdrawal from our love banks by the spouse's affair: the memories, the triggers, the pain. We can't just forget the past but we have to let go of it or we will not be able to adequately meet our FWS's needs and stay away from LBs. It's hard sometimes! Despite our spouse's best efforts, they can't make us forget. But, we knew this going in - that we were choosing a road that would be tough but eventually worth it.

I guess what I'm getting to is this: I can sit here and mentally say that I agree, it's a DJ to feel my husband is not remorseful enough for my liking. However, I'm not sure how to stop feeling that way. I don't express it to him, but as I was reminded yesterday morning, our actions always indicate what's going on inside, even if we try to disguise it. Therefore, I MUST find a way to rid myself of this feeling - of this DJ. I just have to do it in a way that does not withdraw from H's love bank. It's easy to think, "So what if it does? It's his fault - he committed this crime against me!" But, we all know that is not in the best interest of my marriage.

It all comes down to the new way of doing things. The new way of speaking with my husband...the new way of conflict resolution. We definitely have our UA hours in and are going away this weekend. We've reviewed LBs and didn't find problems in that dept. We still need to review ENs though. Maybe that will hold the key!

Sunny! Wow, you've been busy. A lot to think about, for sure. Some thoughts


I think about this, too. My FWH met all my demands (an IC, MC and MB's principals), and not only has he met them, he has exceeded my expectations in terms of figuring out his crud and safeguarding our marriage. So, in a way, I think you're right that they both probably feel like they've done enough to right our ships, and that their commitment to us continues with meeting ENs, maintaining EPs and giving us UA.



Yup, the bumpier road for sure. But as with all things that challenge us thoroughly, we will be stronger in the end. My IC recommended a book to me by a therapist who is an expert on intimacy. Part of his theory of why marriage is so hard is that it is DESIGNED to frustrate and challenge humans as a way to continue our evolutionary growth. That's right: The harder we have to work at something, the better off our species. Even though it's just a theory, I take a lot of comfort in that thought: I am stronger because I have struggled.

And like you wrote on my thread, Sunny, we are on a similar time frame, and I fully expect our heads -- and hearts -- to be in much better places a year from now.

Especially if our wonderful guys continue to meet the UA, ENs and EPs they've promised.

Hugs,
SP

Well now that's an interesting concept. Geez...can't someone else be challenged for awhile to better our species? I'm darn tired! lol

H and I have plans to go out tonight and then this weekend we are going away, so I am definitely looking forward to that! I think that will help with my struggling.

NGB and I have found that as time goes by, and you get better at meeting each others needs, that the most important EN's will change. So some sort of regular review is useful.

All in all, this reflection you posted is well thought out, Sunny.

So, how do you let go of a DJ?

How do you let go of any other bad thought that threatens to ruin your day? You do something, you find something else to think about.

When they threaten your day, do something nice for your H. Put your energy there.

SP,


To add to that, overcoming challenges as a couple actually builds both love and intimacy. We project the feelings of accomplishment onto our partner, not just ourselves or the task at hand.

Just my own rumination, but I would think that's why a properly recovered marriage will THRIVE after experiencing infidelity, because a monstrous task and challenge has been overcome.

I think you're right, 3H - redirection is the best way to get over/through something.

I keep looking for the root cause of some of this evaluation on my part. Is it fear that this will happen again? Fear of returning to the old marriage? Is it insecurity in myself - the self worth slipping because my ego has taken a huge hit by my H having an affair? Does that have something to do with my scrutinizing my husband's level of remorse?

I'm not really sure...maybe it's a mix. I spent a lot of time building myself up after Dday and taking on the "you don't deserve me" persona. It has taken me awhile to allow myself to be vunerable once again to H and caring about what he thinks of me again - all that. I think a part of me doesn't like that vunerability - it makes me feel weak and not in control. It's hard to let someone back in so fully after they've betrayed you so severely.

I DO believe what you said about, HHH, about a properly recovered marriage thriving. It's why I am fighting to make sure we do this right - I do this right. I could easily allow myself to go into, "well...I'm in this, but I'm not giving you my heart 100%...just in case!"

We all know the rules: whoever cares least in the relationship has the most power, right? Part of me wants to be immature and sieze that power - to care least. I don't like her very much sometimes, lol, but I think maybe that's just Scared Sunny talking.

Sunny:

For me, i think it's this:


I have worked REALLY hard at regaining self-worth and confidence. I keep saying that FWH can't crush me into dust again if he cheats, because I'm too strong now.

But I think that deep inside, I fear being hurt that badly again. (Even though I believe I can't be crushed like that again because the scars are too deep).

Hmmmmm.

Agreed! If properly recovered. That's so key, isn't it?

It would be nice if our husbands were half as introspective as we are, wouldn't it?!!!
LOL

I need some help this morning. I find myself feeling angry about this whole ordeal. I'm tired of the stupid memories and triggers. I'm handling them well, not LBing at all, but I just hate that I have to manage anything in the first place.

It is not helped by the fact that H was supposed to be doing the workbook stuff and I gave him HNHN to read over. They are still sitting in the same place he left them - untouched. I reminded him yesterday briefly...and yet, they still sit there.

H has almost an hour every morning to and afternoon from work in which to read. (He takes a park n ride bus into the city.) He also had 3 hours while I was in class last night. He played XBox that whole time. Now, playing Xbox does give him a shared RN with our sons, but it's also his escape.

I don't have an issue with him playing XBox but I do have a problem with him playing all night the past 2 nights while any work on our marriage sits idly by.

I thought he was going to take the lead. He has not done so.

I want to express my hurt about this matter in a non-LBing way. What is the best way to do this?

I'm tired of taking the lead in our recovery!

Good morning, Sunny:

Sorry it's not such a great morning.

I recall Pep or Marital advising me a few months ago that I could bring up topics, like yours above, if I did it in a caring and loving way. Basically, telling your H that your disappointed that he's not pulling his fair share in the recovery, and that it would help fill your love bank if he showed more effort.

Get angry and annoyed here; approach your H with calm explanations about how you feel.

And personally, I really think this is about both our H's feeling like everything is OK. But what I keep impressing upon my H, is that, sure, everything is OK now, but it won't be if we don't work at it every day.

Hope that helps,
SP

I agree, X-box is an escape, and tell him you guys still have real dragons to slay, and your the Damsel in distress.

Thanks guys! I am drafting an email that I hope to send. I'll review it after I shower and make sure it is loving as well as getting my thoughts out there.