Mike,

Hit up the men's recovery thread when you have time, and do some reading from page 1. I'll dig and give you some specific posts when I get off work.

Ok, Mike... so for starters, I present to you my "quick list" for dips in the coaster;

Are we getting 20+ hours of UA time?

How can we meet that goal?

What are my W's top 3 EN's?

What am I doing to meet them?

What are my worst 3 LB's?

What am I doing to avoid them?

What are my top 3 EN's?

How is my W meeting them?

What are my W's worst 3 LB's?

Is she avoiding them?



It's very simple, basic MB concepts arranged in a way that I can go over them mentally at any given time if I happen to hit "crisis mode." This is a small and simple tool you can utilize to begin the climb out, or to avoid falling in a pit.

If the quick list doesn't quite "do the job" then the next step is to schedule a time with your W to redo and review the ENQ and LBQ, as well as to begin doing some hard-set scheduling of your weekly UA (which you should be doing anyway).

Personally, NGB and I keep a binder with all of our Q's and any reading we have done.


Work with that for now and see if you notice improvement.

We bought a new color printer so we can print out years worth of picture from our computer. And there she was in one on a family vacation wearing OMs diamond necklace, not a wedding or party but trip to a nature preserve. You may remember, the necklace "she hardly wore".

Recovery is not going well. My love for her seems to be diminishing and Im in this marriage to protect my children from saddness.

Ive tried very hard to get thru this. The best I could. I tried all the those techniques and it comes back to the same thing: her complete disregard for me and our family for such little gain consumes my daily thought. I feel like I have nothing to build on. It went on for so long.

Things have taken a bad turn in last week. Not sure what I want.

Mike, can you endure yet another analogy from me?

At one time I worked under a third-level Engineering manager during a period of great upheaval in our industry, with new product lines being introduced roughly every year. Getting these designed, tested, and manufactured was always a struggle with predictable contention among departments for resources, and attention to their needs. This manager's chief job was to optimize the process and schedule, so that the entire monster moved forward rationally. He was VERY good at it.

During meetings, when Group A would propose this, Group B offer that, and Group C would think both options were wrong, he'd let them churn for a while, and then he'd take over the meeting by saying, "Gentlemen, the first step is to separate the variables!" And he'd bring order to the chaos by re-orienting the discussion away from organization lines, to what was germaine to the product - time, funds, physical resource, and the GOAL!

(Not important to my point, but when he retired, we decided to get him an A-1 variable separator, so someone acquired a gorgeous replica samurai sword!)

All of this is to point out that you, too, must focus on separating the past which has so grievously hurt you from the future you and your family have the option of creating.

It would be awful, Mike, if your fixation on the past causes you to punish your wife of TODAY, for the crimes of your WW of former times. I do not believe, based on what you say, that she's anywhere near the same person. She is, however, unable to undo what she did; she cannot "un-wear" the necklace. She can now apologize for its existence in your lives, with all the baggage that goes with it. She can also feel worse than you do (and she does), that the pictures reminded you of the fact.

All BSs have triggers (I just had a very bad one this weekend), but as long as we understand they are ephemeral unrealities that cannot hurt us, they WILL NOT hurt us, beyond causing mental discomfort for a limited time. BANG! Now you're past that trigger. If FWW has any sense at all, she's already editing your computer's picture trove for similar items.

Develop the strength to fight through the immediate hit from these things. Do NOT let your past dictate your future, MSS.

Must've been something in the water...had a really bad weekend as well....alot of triggers.

W was depressed/sad this weekend, saturday really, at our kids soccer game / park.

Basically, she worries if she's going to be "okay"...says there are still days the whole magnitude of what she did gets to her, that she was capable of doing this...what does that say about what I value? she asked.

She stated she feels like its going through the stages of grief...and some stages bubble up again from time to time, that they need to be exhausted...she spoke about mourning, mourning the loss of our old marriage, the 'idea' that she'd have only 1 partner in her life, the loss of our kids' innocence in all of this...

It's weird, becasue I feel I've already been through all these ebbs and flows of grief, the loss....why does it seem it's just hitting her now?

She tried to joke with me, giving me the Costanza line: "it's not you, it's me"...She says she is diaapointed, disgusted in her behavior....cried a little bit, saying again how sorry she is for it all...says she had so many other options to cope with things than this, and has emotionally and physically damaged herself...

She kinda cut me off at the pass and said no, there's been no contact at all -- I have no desire to contact OM...why? to take myself BACK to that dark place when I am trying to move forward?

I do reiterate her worth, her value, working the MB plan, etc.

She ended it all by simply saying it looks like it will just take more time, that she wants the pain to go away, that she feels close to not having any more tears to cry about it all, just get going forward.

On a good note, I guess, W took me out to dinner last night to, as she said, try to reverse the downer from Saturday...

Mike, like you, some days I simply just don't know and wonder...really just wonder if there's too much damage that was wrought...killing the affair seemed easy sometimes compared to this...

Thanks.

...just to add:

She seems now to be questioning the WHY? of it all, as in:

"WHY would I do this and jeopardize everything? What is wrong with me (W)..."

(like she's 'finished' processing the 'what' of the A, and has moved on to the 'why'. Normal??? Not being a FWS, I don't know).

Thanks.

Mike,

NG has an excellent point about moving forward with the wife of today and that she cannot change the past, although she wishes she could.

Only you can determine if she is genuine in her remorse over her betrayal, not us. From what you have written, she is. MB principles can help, or other attempts, when both spouses are committed to trying.

Here is my question to you: Do you think that you're beginning to not want to reconcile? MB works - however, not all marriages can be recovered successfully.Its working for NG and helpfordad is getting there. The harsh reality is, though, that while your wife may be doing whatever she can, the damage is done. No betrayed spouse is required to stay with a wayward spouse, regardless if they are following MB principles or another form of support.

Sometimes the idea of working on personal healing can be overshadowed by the idea of healing the marriage, which can be a problem. And no marriage should be held together solely for childen - as a product of that myself, it only leads to more problems.

It sounds to me (and I could totally be wrong here) that you're questioning if you want to remain married, and that feeling is natural and your right to have. Since I first read your threads I was pulling for you. I still am - whether that means you decide to stay or you divorce, I hope you can find the healing that you need.

NG-Always can use more analogies. Theyve keep me both positive and thinking and the above is well taken as usual.

HFD-Too many triggers to remove.

DT-Your last couple of are hinting at the obvious and I unfortunately my kids are genuinely the reason I have not left. I dont want to hurt them. So I am destined to swallow "my favorite description" all her past and try to make like things are peachy.

I will not hurt my babies because their mother had a gun of her own to our family life. And, yes, she is the ultimate in remorsefulnes. My cousin said I have a right to be happy. So, when Jr. goes to college I can then make moves such as you decribe because I made a committment when he arrived Id be his full time father. We can see if I can be happy then. Now, its just Empty Shell Man. Living civil and trying to love her is all I can do.

Truth.

Mike,

even this weekend, with what I described earlier, my W said "you have every right to still go, whenever you choose, becasue I have caused alot of damage and it could be too much for us"

One fear is too many triggers for the rest of my life...even watching an on-demand movie this weekend -- does everyhting have to be about sex, and doing other men's wives? How long until my W stops turning her head to look at gray Ford trucks that drive by...or turn up the radio for a song I fear has lyrics that 'mean something'...or driving her into grad school, located in OM's county (but nowhere close to him, thank god)...

At disclosure, I said to myself I'd give it 6 months til exposure...at exposure said I'd give it 6 months til my birthday...then 6 more months til the 1 year mark of exposure...by next summer it'll be 2 years since trhe affair...can I hold out til then?

Maybe I'm / we're getting there, and I just don't know it...

It was a bit funny that my W and I both disclosed a secret fear we've had is that each of us is hindering our own recovery...she said it's difficult for her to live with what she's done...and then see me in one of my moments...and that just compounds her despair/pain (not blaming me at all, just being O&H)...and I shared when I'm down, it's not to ounish or get back at her at all -- for the love of God I want this to be really our past...we both are a bit impatient...as my W sometimes said, I wish there was a way to make the memory of it all just go away...

And Mike, yes, I think about the fact that I could be w/ someone else...they'd have their own baggage, it wouldnt erase what my W did, but it would be with someone who didnt do this to me...different baggage, at least.

Hmmmm...

Mike,

I respect your committment to your children. I get what you're saying - my mother tried keeping it together, for the children (me and my sister). I think she also planned to file once we graduated high school.

It made things a hundred times worse, they ended up divorcing while I began middle school. divorce is awful for families, but so can waiting it out. Even as a child, I came to recognize that my parents splitting was the best course of action for them - and for us as a family. Two people, married and living together, when one or both aren't in for it, isn't good. In your case, although you have made it clear that Wife is remorseful, the damage is done.

Living as an empty shell can and most likely will impact the children. I viewed it like ripping off a bandaid - painful, yes, but best to just get it done and rip it off and get it over with. Helps with healing.

But thats just part of my story, and things are different for everyone. Is your wife aware of how you feel, and what you may do when they graduate high school?

This, sir, is not Marriage Builders advice. The example you give, and how it is "better to divorce" speaks of people who are not commited to creating and maintaining romantic love in a marriage, which is a requirement to recover and protect a marriage.

While some people simply cannot forgive adultery, following the recovery plan provided within this program creates the best chance scenario to find out.

No, it sure isn't. I think Mike is at the part of the rollercoaster where he realizes that following MB advice may not help heal the damage caused

And the example I used is of a marriage where the damage was done was too great. And I'm not a Divorce-Only person. It seems that is not clear from what I've stated earlier, I'll work on not coming across that way.

Its a dip in the coaster. A low point. Making permanent decisions based on these fluctuations is one of the things you don't want to do. The common mark is two years; if after two years your marriage is not better than before the affair, chances are it won't recover.

You live "in the space between two heartbeats."

Phffffthbbbt!

Mike (and HFD),

Let me tell you this is some of the worst recovery advice I've heard. Let me encourage you guys being just a little further down the track than you... Our roller-coaster is pulling into the gate.

At one year I was ready to be fully recovered... Didn't happen. I still had ups and downs. There were times I wanted to jump off the coaster as we were going into another loop. just wanted to quit. had enough and thought I was too damaged, too heartbroken, too crushed, never able to trust again. There were days that I felt so bad that it was darn near close to DDay in the way I felt. Sometimes it lasted a week, sometimes a day or an hour... Sometimes it built over a few weeks. Truly there were times I was simply done. Didn't care if God turned her into the blessed virgin and she was the subject of beatific visions in Washington DC.


BUT!!!! With hard work.. HARD work, the hills on the coaster get smaller. They did for me. You get less of that queasy feeling. Your senses are more about you. Know what the scary thing is? That in the middle of it all, you will think you are thinking clearly and that your feelings are your feelings and you just KNOW that too much has been said and done...

but it's really not clear thinking. It's BS fog. It's that turmoil we deal with through that first year or two...

Brothers, it gets better. I am about 99% on board with MB (to be honest, nothing is perfect), and it is really the only thing we have tried in three years that really, honest to gosh works. Easy it is not, effective it is. This is par for the course brothers.

let me tell you something you have and maybe are losing sight of... A repentant wife. It is a gift that is immeasurable. It is a blessing that maybe you haven't fully realized yet. Mourn the loss of your marriage guys, but at some point we have to quit crying over what we've lost, pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and either embrace the opportunity for a new life, or head for the door. I can tell you, being a little ahead of you that embracing the new life with a repentant wife is something that will blow your socks off... The door? It is a world of unknowns. No guarantees, no promises except that life will get immeasurably more complicated.

Hang in there guys!

CV

Mike,

Another thing or two also occurred to me (thanks to my darling wife)... Are you living dishonestly in your marriage? Does your wife know that you are secretly planning on bailing out after the kids move away? What are you really working for? It sure doesn't sound like recovery. Recovery means recovering your marriage, not just holding out miserably until the kids are of age. Eventually your wife will pick up on this. She will see what you are doing. If you think the affair destroyed her, think of what this will do to her...

Living for years under the assumption that things will continue to get better... Placing all her trust in you, hoping and waiting for final reconciliation and then finding out that you were just waiting it out... Doesn't smack of honesty or openness to me at all.


The other thing that hit me tonight is that some things have played in here that have really hindered recovery... (see if on HFD's page as well with his wife not leaving her job) Money. I hate to bring it up, but this settlement thing with the OM and getting the money payments seemed to really kick a big setback in you that I am not quite sure that you realize yet...

Have you ever watched the Quiet Man with John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara?

There's that scene where they finally get the dowry that her jerk brother has been withholding and they toss it into the furnace. They got the dowry money out of principle, but didn't keep it... out of principle...

CV

CV,

Thanks so much....

I think part of the rollercoaster has been waiting out my W as well for her processing and healing, which sometimes makes me resentful, you know?

In reviewing the events of the weekend, I wonder if my filter is so screwy now that I don't always hear what she's really saying...my W spoke about how guilty, ashamed she is at herself -- how she caused trauma to herself as well -- and that her words can't undo what she did, even though there are times she'd like to be able to say the right things to make it all right.

I heard this as some 'fog' of hers to want to talk to OM again...so I said to her whoa, there was already that incident of contact in work over the summer, where you said you told OM you're committed to H, marriage, kids, etc. and to leave you alone.

W responded that one aspect of her pain is that she could apologize to all parties until the cows came home, but it really doesn't matter or excuse her choices, the damage...and doesn't do anything for the pain.

So, where am I now?

This past summer was the 1 year anniversery of dday...right now, this fall a year ago, the PA ended but ciontact dragged on (and off) for months. In March I exposed and, I believe, killed the A once and for all?

Is the track I'm on normal? will things truly be better past the 1 year anniversary of exposure....next summer, at the 2 year mark of dday?

Thank you.

CV, I'm going to take a different tack on MSS's mental gymnastics. (MSS, if you'd rather not endure decidedly amateur dissection, based on minimal information, of your current musings, stop reading. I'll not be offended.)

Anyway, the best way to look at this "easy-out" that is being discussed is in terms of the vector of the position. Five months ago it was "I'm done with her; I'm outta here!". It took a while to get the accession to the prescribed two years before making the decision. Today it is, "I'm only committing to staying for XX years!"

Firstly, "XX years" is a fairly long commitment. And MSS has not said, ".....and I'll not be following MB practices during that time." so remember, "XX years" will be filled with family trips, celebrations, love-making, growth and development - all those things that make a marital union strong. If MSS does not willfully refrain from participating, he will find himself having many more years'-worth of "good" than the several years of revealed "bad" in his wife's actions toward him and his family.

Secondly, as well, having an accessible "out" is often psychologically the key to staying "in". (Research the Western Electric workplace studies in Hawthorne for background.) Trying to reconcile the pre-d-day internal belief of divorce-upon-discovery-of-infidelity with a more rational what-is-best-right-now seems to require an interim divorce-eventually-but-not-convenient-yet stage. (Mine was/is the mental construct of "ending" the first marriage, and "beginning" a new one with the same person.)

Think in medical terms. MSS should continue to share the feelings behind his uneasiness - FWW should have the opportunity of treating them. But telling the patient, "Your unchangeable death date has been set at 25 June 20XX" is not wise.

(Sidebar: If you ever visit Ireland, make the effort to see Cong, the Quiet Man village. It's on a small jut of land between the two large lakes in Galway, Mas and Corrib, which almost create an island out of Connemara, nestled among the twelve "bens" or mountains that dominate the West. It's gorgeous country.)

You are welcome. I think what you and MSS both really need to work on is awareness. Seasons bring triggers without us knowing it. Fall is extremely hard for me at times because it is when he 2nd A started. It creeps on you and you have to be vigilant going into seasons. Yes, this is VERY normal. For both of you. I don't know a BS that doesn't struggle with this.

Yesterday marked the 4 year anniversary of my wife telling me she didn't love me. We worked to make it a different kind of day. replace the bad trigger with a good one. It's harder to replace bad triggers that good ones. they are far more ingrained in our heads. It doesn't make it impossible though.

Yesterday we worked on replacing it by making sure UA time was there. Talking kindly to each other all day. I called her at lunch to tell her I missed her. We rubbed each other's feet for hours. I talked about all her good traits. I cuddled her.

At bed time, I climbed in and you know what she said? "I felt peace that I have never felt before in my life, my mind wasn't racing or busy. I was still."


For us that was a successful night. I will reinforce it over the next few days to help he overcome this horrible trigger she has over what she has done.

It sounds like I am talking about her, but it's about me too. My eyes are off of serving myself. They are on her. That makes it easier to love her, cherish her, see her for who she really is. This is how healing works for us.

CV

Just one of those ferocious down turns on the roller coaster.

We are working through it and will survive.

Yes, she knows my options will always be there 6 months, 1, 2, or 5 years after d-day. And, I told her more than once PRIOR to d-day that with my dissatisfaction with our bedroom life that I will not stay around forever if her interest in sex stays as low as it was. And she knew that meant when both kids are out, I could follow. The laugh was on me as after each of those conversations, she would then go out and give OM the SF. You could imagine the AO that produced early on in this thing.

NG-Your post above is particularly high level reading but I think I got the gist. Maybe knowing my options are always available to me is what keeps me here, perhaps youre right. Maybe its a mental trick to keep my non-antidepressant taking head on straight? Maybe CV is right and it will take every bit of 2 years (maybe more) to get that head to stop thinking bad things. I like the concept of out with the old, in with the new in marriage terms. I broached this topic before; how does one completely overlook past inpropriety (to use a word that doesnt do justice to what a lot of our WS have done) and start anew? Maybe the 2 years of purgatory Im putting her through, the virtual non stop SF she must supply/endure, and leash she wears per our EP is her penalty? After which, we start anew? Ive also said in the past, how much of this will take?

I was already in a lousy mood when I saw the pictures of her wearing OM jewerly so it didnt take any bigger trigger than that. Maybe it was that her parents were wrapping up a particularly long visit and all that implies? We had time alone last night and talked about stuff and we moved forward. (not helping that I caught one of my kids' colds and Im ailing)

I know I hurt her when i get down. I know I dont like hurting her. I know she has been wonderful to me. I know she dies a little when I get into a funk. I wish I could be more like her. I asked her the other day how she handles being with my mother and family who know of the A. Her answer was good: 'I hold my head high. I made a mistake, but the mistake is not me.'

This is not a wordsmith I married. And, maybe someone gave her that but I was impressed by her reply.