DoNoMo is so right in expressing how a H shows his remorse. Probably both genders, actually.

Words state the fact that he is remorseful (and tears,) but remorse is best shown by a 180-turn from the bad behavior.

If my husband never again says he is sorry, but instead tells me he loves me and is affectionate and caring and follows his EPs, that is him showing remorse.

I asked my H how he would feel posting on this forum, but he's not into it. First of all, he doesn't post much on forums anyway, but most of all, the SAA forum would be a constant reminder of the pain. He wants very much to put it behind him--not to forget it, but to move past it. Maybe someday he will help, but not now. Too painful for him.

If love is shown by action, it seems that remorse is, too, in a way. My H used to frequently tell me he was so sorry about what he did to me, and what is there to say back? I would often just reply, "I know." Words, bah! Give me actions!

Just saw this post. Missed it somehow earlier. Yes!!!!! MikeStillSmiling and I have been talking about this post on his thread. He showed it to his FWW and isn't sure if that was a love bust or not.

My FWH has cried over his affair, and on the RAREST occasions when I tell him how deeply wounded I was, I see pain in his face.

I just don't think he ever wants to go back to the MOMENT of me finding out. Or when I saw him for the first time when he returned home, and i was inconsolable on the kitchen floor.

Ugh.

Must concentrate on ACTIONS!!! You are so right.

Sunny! How did I miss this post, too. Egad. Am not a very good caretaker of my own thread. Gah!

Isn't it weird how lives of so many of us aren't so different? When I found out on DDay, I thought I was going to die of pain. That I was totally alone in the world.

So glad I found MB (for its utility) and for you all on the forums. This kind of support is, really, heartening.

I can certainly understand why they (our H's) don't want to go back there. The thing is, we can't help but go back there at times, no matter how hard we try not to. So, we feel they should have to go back too!

WHat I find is the balance is hard: speaking up for yourself, asking for what you need, but not lovebusting while doing it. It's a fine art. I haven't quite gotten there yet. Have you?

You need to express the need enough that he gets in the habit, and you need to be SPECIFIC.

"I would love it if you bought me flowers at least once a month. How would you feel about scheduling a time to buy me flowers at least once a month in your planner? How can I help you?"

"I would love it if you'd ask me how I am feeling every day when you come home from work. How would you feel about doing that? How can I help you remember?"


Didn't ask if you got "enough". Asked if you got at least fifteen hours, and if you keep track

((<<fire alarm>> Pedantic alert! Pedantic alert!))

My wife and I often think we're getting "enough". Then I'll write down the actual hours we spend alone together in my planner, and we'll end up around 8 or 12 hours or so. 15 is a kind of "magic number" because it was the minimum Dr. Harley found in studies he ran on sample groups quite a few years ago for couples who were quantifiably in love.


Yep. They sucked. First year sucked more than second year. I expect third year will suck less. FWW took time to make sure that the antiversary had good memories, too.


You could do the same thing without the Love Busters:
A) bringing up the the past (reminding him of the affair),
B) making selfish demands (telling him what to do),
c) making disrespectful judgments (telling him what he thinks by implying he's not mindful of your emotions).

Try this approach instead!

"Sweetheart, I'm really struggling with the memory of a bad anniversary. I really need your help, and wold love to talk for a few minutes. How can we turn tomorrow into a positive thing together?

This kind of introduction allows you to follow the Guidelines for Successful Negotiation, specifically keeping the conversation pleasant and safe. The way you suggested it, above, is an introduction to a fight or grudging acceptance.

During that conversation, mention that you would love to leave your cell phones turned off at home and spend time together doing something fun. My wife and I turned one of the antiversaries into a great time this year by booking two nights at a local bed-and-breakfast and spending the day geocaching downtown! Now early August I'll remember the bed & breakfast & geocaching rather than the fights about OM from two years ago.

Hope that's helpful. Keep those DJ's to yourself!

My best days are the ones where I don't think about the d$$ned affair. Oh, relief! I can finally just lay it to rest and NOT talk about it. There is nothing my H or I can do about the wretched past, except to make the future better.

My humble suggestion would be to ask your H to frequently tell you he loves you and to be affectionate and anything else that meets your ENs. Define what you mean by "frequent." I asked my H to tell me every day while we are still in bed that he loves me, and he is supposed to kiss me, too. He's pretty good about remembering both.

The one thing my H will say in reference to his affair is to every other day or so say, "I'm so glad you're here." Sometimes he'll say, "Thank you for giving me another chance. I'm going to love you for the rest of my life." He often brings up our plans for our future and what his ideas for us to do when we get to settle down in a few years. Unless I'm obviously struggling, he will only ask me how my day is going. If I'm really sad, he will hold me and ask how he can help make me feel better.

While you are both enjoying your time together on your vacation, try really hard to just have some good fun to overlay those dreadful memories. If you keep doing that this year, then next year and the next and so on, those bad memories will become part of the past and you will be building wonderful new memories to carry on.

51:

Thanks for the advice and sorry to be responding so late, but I was on a fabulous vacation with FWH.

And ... ta-dah! The good times outweighed the bad thoughts hands down. In fact, last Monday was the day FWH called POSOW to start the long-distance part of their affair last year, and I thought I would be triggered, especially because FWH went golfing that day with others in our group and I went exploring with the rest. I was so busy with our friends that it didn't even cross my mind ... and because he was golfing with our dearest friends in the world (who know about his affair), I felt totally safe about his whereabouts.

Makes me wonder if I'm holding on to the anti-versaries intellectually, as a way to cling to what's left of my pain from being hurt so badly.

The next biggest trigger days are FWH's birthday. Last year, I had to work on his birthday, and he ended up spending nearly three hours on the phone with POSOW. Barely even took my call from work. Oh, and immediately called her back after hanging up with me. PUKE!!!!!! (We did celebrate his birthday a couple of days before at a REALLY expensive restaurant, so it's not like I forgot him at all.)

And then, lastly, will be the 1-year anti-versary of D-Day.

Part of me NEVER wants to forget those days. Why? Because don't we repeat mistakes unless we remember them?

I know. I know. MBs is about building and growing, not staying mired.

But something about forgetting scares me ... as in: if FWH forgets the damage he caused, will he be selfish and cheat again?

Hmmmm.

Part of me NEVER wants to forget those days. Why? Because don't we repeat mistakes unless we remember them?

Experiential transposition problem here, SPMMXI ! (Note: This is similar to, but not the same as, recto-cranial inversion!)

YOUR FWH IS THE ONE BURDENED WITH NEVER FORGETTING HIS MISTAKES!

Your blessed mission is to bury your experience (in his JCs; in newer, better memories; in enjoying a grander life) and leave to HIM the burden of NEVER FORGETTING how his actions almost cost him YOU.

SP, so glad you had a great vacation!

I empathize with your concerns about not "wanting" to forget. I have this same issue.

I totally see what Never is saying. I think the devil's advocate in me wants to say, "But what if he DOES forget?! I don't want HIM to forget!" lol Oh, I'm sure we want them to forget the OW and all that, but not the pain they caused us.

NG and Sunny:

NG ... Like Sunny, I do worry that my FWH will forget the pain he caused. Here's a for instance. The night before FWH was to meet POSOW, he propositioned a 22-year-old woman. I didn't know about this until after DDay. FWH has never ONCE remembered this occurred, until I point it out. And he almost always ignores his previous two affairs in his first marriage (none with me).

And before you yell at me about bringing up his affairs, this is not the case. They come up through other topics (his therapy, a note from our SIL, who is suffering from decades of cheating from FWH's brother.)

On the other hand, he is rock solid on UA, EPs. Rock ... freakin' ... solid.

Like Sunny, I worry that if he forgets how awful he was and how much he hurt me, he'll be tempted. Not easily tempted, but tempted nonetheless.

Hmmmm. ....

FHW's birthday is Nov. 2. I am trying NOT to think about the hours he spent that day last year talking to POSOW, planning their soon-to-be rendezvous. I'm even tempted to look up his cell phone records to remind myself how much he talked to her that day. How he called her the minute he hung up with me (I called him from work). I WON'T look up those records, but am sorely tempted.

I am planning a day of fun day for his birthday this year, and asked him to take a vacation day. Probably massages, a great lunch, a long walk with our dog and a nice dinner at home with the boys.

I'm feeling compelled to make his birthday so AWESOME that he won't compare it to last year, when he was in deep in the fog with POSOW (PUKE! PUKE! PUKE!).

Yes, I truly do want him to feel my love and admiration for him, but when I "think" about planning his birthday, I get a sick feeling that some of the motivation rises from insecurity and fear (the ol' comparison with POSOW).

And like everything to do with his affair. That sucks. Sigh.

I know how you feel, SweetPea. I find myself questioning my motives a lot lately - and feeling that a lot of this sucks! It just does!

You know - you and I are on similar timetables I think. I'm wondering if part of the down cycle is because things are getting back to "normal" in terms of married life. You know, at first you go through just being happy to be back together again - hysterical bonding, etc... Then, you hit a patch of anger - then that eases up. All along, our FBH's are trying to console us and make us feel secure. Then, we hit on this year patch and I think maybe our spouse's have eased up some on trying so hard to make amends - things start drifting back towards our set points, and we are left with the lingering, haunting memories while our spouses just want to forget it. Then, we aren't supposed to bring up the past, so we're left with unspoken thoughts. We question ourselves. We grieve.

I know it is all part of the process and the process ain't pretty sometimes.

I'll still feeling positive overall, but I have had some issues. I just keep thinking "work the program and hang on..."

Now: you SHOULD plan the best dang birthday you can for your hubby, despite "why". But try to make it something that can be fun for you and not just a reminder of last year or comparison to last year. Do something that plays to your strengths.

Sunny:


This is so true! And I agree that we're on a similar 1-year-antiversary pattern.

I truly am trying to love and be loved. And day-in/day-out it's good. Like you, I wish the compensation element were a bit, well, more.

And you're right about playing to my strengths: I'm totally creative, and he LOVES to be surprised, so he will. In the most interesting ways I can conceive.

Thanks for the support, Sunny!

Cheers,
SP

You should check out NeverGuessed's latest post on my thread - and my post from this morning. You might find it helpful as it addresses some of this, especially the idea of "just compensation". I guess I could post it here....

Anyway, what I'm finding is you have to narrow things down to specific actions your H can take in order to help you through this. Also, we just have to keep focusing on our marriages and to try and stop thinking of anything else. It's HARD sometimes.

You've got a man who is willing to do what it takes to recover - and that's the most important thing: desire and action.

I have a feeling you and I are going to be much less triggered a year from now!

Something came up yesterday that's been bugging me.

FWH says he doesn't remember much of the conversations he had with skankho, even though they texted hundreds of times and talked for hours and hours.

The other night, skankho came up, unfortunately. Since she had come up, I wanted to find out how truthful FWH is about the content of their conversations. So, I asked him if it had ever had to wish her a happy birthday during their affair. And his standard response: I don't remember.

I say: What? You don't remember if you wished your skankho a happy birthday during your affair? You either did or you didn't.

He said: I don't know when her birthday is, and I never had to say happy birthday.

Me: That's all I'm asking for. Direct answers.

This "content" of their conversations issue continues to bug me, even though we haven't discussed this in months.

I know I've brought this issue up before and wrestled with it.

I DON'T want to know the intimate "I love you" crap, but I just find it insulting to me that he "can't remember" and "she did most of the talking" is really the case.

I wish he'd just say: I remember most of it, but I don't want to tell you because I know it will hurt you and it makes me feel like crap.

Is that too much to ask?

Hmmmmm.

Well, I can't say that I have any experience with this one. I never even thought to ask my H about the conversations with him and SkankHo. I figured it was all a bunch of BS anyway, so why bother.

Here's the thing I do know: whatever he discussed with her, it was all to make him feel good about him. Oh, sure - he may have said things to her that were thoughtful and seemingly considerate of her, but even then it was all about him. If he was her "knight in shining armor" it was to boost his own ego, for instance.

I remind myself that the affair was not a real relationship. It was all a fantasy world set up to feed egos.

Of course your H needs to be honest. If you feel he is avoiding or lying about this then you are going to be suspicious of him in other areas as well. I'm sure he would prefer you not ask about these things but he does need to be open and not use "I don't remember" as an excuse.

So, I guess there are 2 things here:
- Why do you feel the need to ask? and
- Why do you think he's lying?

Hello sweetpea,

I have followed your thread for a couple of weeks now as the title made me realise that I was struggling a little with similar issues.

It coming up to the final Dday antivesary foe me too and it has brought up similar issues. There are times when just remembering all that pain is hard and as my FWH had his A/friendship for 6 years, 5 of which I was aware and miserably enabling, there are lots to contend with.

But when I think where I was this time last year and where I am now.....for the first time in 5 years I can have a birthday (within days of hers) without having to bite my tongue when he took her for a meal or took her and her D to a show for Xmas or to a fireworks display...it's such a relief.

I was ready to walk this time last year, and here I still am with a H who seems to get it finally.

I too wondered about some of their conversations but as I knew her so well I believe most of them were about her, her dreadful life and her needs, she would have rarely thought about his needs and his stress. she was a typically selfish POSOW, only interested in getting what she wanted and nothing about what he wanted.

we talked for many many hours and I do believe that a lot of what was said he has forgotten, chooses to forget or, as it went on for so long, those memories just aren't there.

Focus on the marriage you have now, a man who seems to be trying. You can't change what was but you can change what is to be.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in!

p.s. on her birthday this year, I made sure it was wonderful for me so that those are the memories I can take into next year rather than the painful ones of last year. Use those dates well and make them special rather than painful.

It's a long road this one......

Sunny and Tanam:


He is more likely avoiding rather than consciously lying. He says he never wants to think about her or their "relationship" (his word, not mine; i always say "cheap affair").


Because he has always maintained that "he doesn't remember" much of what they discussed. And I find that hard to believe, given the volume of exchanges. So, he's either lying to preserve himself, lying to not hurt me more, or he really didn't pay attention.

If it's the latter (didn't pay attention) I should be glad, right? But that's what doesn't sit right. He's actually a fairly good listener for a man (sorry to male bash here). Just doesn't "feel right."

Which gets to your second question about why I feel like he's lying about it.

Why would he be motivated to lie? To save me from hurt. To keep her out of his head. To erase the feelings that he had for her.

But "not remembering" is different than saying "My telling you this detail won't help us recover."

And, ultimately, if he's required to be open and honest, then when I do ask the rare "what" question of him, he should answer. Right?


THis also resonated with me. It's something FWH's IC said, too, which I loved. FWH's affair was a low-quality "relationship" designed to elicit anonymous sex. Anything he did to "woo" POSOW was designed for that purpose.

Must keep these thoughts in mind!


Tanam:

Six years. OMG. I don't know if I could recover from that. A six-week betrayal was nearly more than I could handle. So bravo to you for working the MB philosophy and making progress!


Such valuable support and advice! It's why I cling to this website/forum. I need those occasional 2x4s across the head to not get mired in the disgusting detail of FWH's affair, and concentrate fully on the man he now is.

And he really IS a better man than he was a year ago. It's true!

Cheers,
SP

So, do you think that if you asked and he told you what you think he should be telling you - the "my telling won't help us" - you would feel better and stop asking? And yes, I imagine that if he is lying/avoiding that it is to spare your feelings.

When I am going round and round with these types of things it helps me to stop and try and get to the root of what I am REALLY wanting. Is it knowledge so that you can make sure you are meeting needs she met? Is it reassurance that there was truly nothing special between them so you can quit worrying about measuring up? Is it wanting to see O&H in action so that you know he is still in recovery with both feet in, willing to be honest, open, and transparent so you can trust in your future together?

None of these are wrong things to want! But it helps to get to the bottom of what's really bugging you in order to solve the issue. You can communicate what you need more efficiently if you know yourself. I am finding the more I can put it in present context the more productive the conversation. See, in their minds, it's like, "That has nothing to do with us - that was then, this is now." The job falls to us to educate on what it has to with with our needs now.

As you know - I need 2x4's at times as well, lol, so by reminding you - I am reminding myself too!