I don't see where you expressed gratitude or admiration to her for her initiative in meeting your emotional need. I would try to make sure that that message predominates! If she gets some negative each time she meets your needs (i.e., "Could be better...") she is likely to start feeling an aversion toward meeting your need. I am not saying that you should not be open and honest with her about your needs, but I am saying that you have some work to do before she will be receptive to that.

Frankly, I sometimes get the impression from your posts that you are more concerned about your emotional needs than hers. You need to be concerned about both your needs and hers, and you probably also need to realize that you are not likely to get your needs met consistently and with a high degree of satisfaction until you have been doing the same for her for quite some time.

Let me put it this way: if you had held off a bit, saving your complaints for perhaps a time when your wife is more onboard with this program and hearing them, she might have spent the next few nights with you. I imagine that would have been fun for you whether those nights involved SF or not, and whether they involved climax or not, and they would've made love bank deposits for her as well, and possibly even given her a chance to get more comfortable and even more skillful being intimate with you. They certainly would've been better than the last few nights.

Can you hold your complaints down to about once a week?

I didn't do myself justice in the previous post. I was very appreciative at the time. I mainly wanted W to know that the subdued nature of my response had been due to my medication response and concern not to hurt her.

I totally agree that my priority needs to be on meeting W's needs. I don't post as much about that because I feel like I understand much of what I need to do. Just need to keep working it. I am working specific plans every day for that purpose. I can pursue this goal largely through improving my own behavior and so I feel more confidence about it.

I post more about my distress having my own needs met because I have less understanding of how to proceed and therefore need more feedback. This seems much more outside of my control, and feels like more of a challenge for that reason.

Also, as I have noted, I'm battling some depression issues and I'm certain my mood disorder is showing in my posts. I have reached out for medical help with that.

I have an appointment for Monday to see my Dr about depression.

Good for you, CIGB. Take care of yourself.

UA Brushoff

I arrived home from work to find W playing solitaire with tv on. I made a salad and w put chicken in the oven. I left things alone till after we had eaten.

The I invited w to play cribbage with me. W said "after House is over."

I went and did the dishes then wandered off to bed. To my somewhat surprise, she noticed I didn't return to living room. "Aren't you going to watch House?"

I simply said I was going to bed (it is 7pm). I'll try again tomorrow.

To others who may be dealing with depression.

I have lived with many people close to me who were diagnosed with depression. My father, my wife, my daughter, even my dog. Each of them has denied being in depression and resisted seeking treatment (except the dog, she was very cooperative). I don't blame them. Denial is part of the disease. But you cannot rely on your own belief that you are not depressed!

When my DW, DD and dog were all depressed at the same time, I spent a lot of time wondering if I was somehow to blame. After all, I seemed to be the common factor. It was not a cheery household.

I resolved from these experiences not to fall into this trap. I resolved to seek medical help for depression at any sign that I might need it, or if those I trust advise me to do so. So I am doing so now without hesitation.

When you are depressed, those who love you will suffer too. If they ask you to seek help, they are doing so because they love you.

In my opinion the rule of protection also applies to depression. You will not suffer depression alone, and you owe it to those who love you not to share your "fine and pleasant misery" with them. After all, it is chiefly because they love you, that watching you suffer is so hard upon them.

Cam home from work...W playing solitaire. I cooked and served supper. W playing solitaire...I cleaned the kitchen. Then I sat and tried to make conversation about the tv show w was watching. Still playing solitaire so I went to bed early.

Got up this morning...W playing solitaire..I fixed and served breakfast. More solitaire. I left the room.

I don't want to go overly negative about the solitaire, but I am feeling very disrespected. If we converted half of the hours W plays solitaire to UA time we'd have 15 hours easily.

My next move. Ask W to schedule 15 hours this week. I won't be willing to "count" any time when a computer is use. Today we will go for a dog walk and out to a movie. Tomorrow another dog walk. Wednesday we have our first dance class. That's a pretty good start for a plan for the week. We can add some more activities to get to 15 hours.

W has not returned to our bed. I'm reluctant to raise the issue again soon. Doing so sets me up for more emotional pain. If I don't ask I feel lonely. If I ask, I feel lonely AND rejected.

Is removing myself from the situation when W is playing solitaire a LB?

I know that offering to engage in an activity that we can enjoy is a better solution, and I'm pushing myself to do that. But it is exhausting (and humiliating when she brushes me off). I am doing it some of the times, but I can't always summon the patience. The sound effects from the computer are becoming aversive to me.

I need to manage the swell of negative feelings I experience when W is playing solitaire and getting out of the room helps me avoid making demands or voicing judgments. But in a way it seems like a kind of silent DJ. I have been trying to return to the room an hour or so later, but if I can't get w to engage then I don't stay long.

Started on Welbutrin this morning. Hope it helps clear my fog (depression fog, not the other kind).

W and I agreed to see a relationship counselor together and have appointments for the first two sessions made for 11-14 and 11-21.

I wrote an email explaining that we are looking for someone to facilitate our better meeting each others needs and eliminating behaviors that make each other unhappy and sent it to three counselors. I explained that we want to develop a plan for accomplishing this. W approved my message before I sent it. We chose the counselor most supportive of those statements.

I have concerns that I don't feel emotionally safe voicing to W. I must struggle against my own tendency to avoid conflict by keeping discontent to myself, I am apprehensive that voicing my concerns will make W unhappy, I am fearful that expressing my point of view will trigger anger and that W will not see my point of view as valid. I suppose that makes me an "avoid trouble" liar. To get past this I need the assistance of a facilitator to create a situation where I feel safer opening up.

I think welbutrin will help, I took that route and it has helped.
I think the only way a relationship works is to be open and honest with each other and then putting a plan in place that gives each other a place to talk and be heard.
My husband and I used a log book for a while to state our feelings and to be heard without any AO of DJ........
You can't change the past issues but by understanding the outcome of all that has happened, you can stop the same things from happening........it takes understanding and caring about the other partners feelings.......

I am so glad the two of you are working together now.......
What do you have to lose, you have everything to gain out of your relationship and the caring that will be there, it is such a great feeling being that close to someone else that you can just be who you are and they will accept and understand what it is you need..........
you don't have to agree with everything but you do have to accept.

I have the desire and intention of open communication, but I will need help getting to feel safe enough to open up. I have an anxiety disorder. W has a history of AO. At some time I'll have to learn to take the perceived risks, but I am hoping the counselor will be able to help establish conditions for that to happen more easily.

As much as I hesitate to trigger AO. I am also apprehensive about causing W emotional pain with some of what I have to say. I will feel more free to open up if I know that W has the support of the counselor to help deal with her feelings. In the past, We get bogged down with me trying to comfort W about her self-blame and guilt trip to the extent that my initial message gets lost in trying to cope with her reactions.

I don't think there should be much that you should say that would cause your wife emotional pain. If you are truly being respectful, non-demanding, and not angry, you should not be causing her pain, unless you are revealing instances you've concealed in the past where you took actions that would cause her pain.

It sounds possible that you have been disrespectful without realizing it. She is really the best judge of this.


Wow, that just sounds like a conversation that would be difficult to have without telling your wife how to feel, which would be disrespectful and a turn-off to any woman.

First installment of dance class tonight.
I plan to surprise W with a wrist corsage.

Hope the dance class was good UA time!

W lit up at the dance class. Happiest face I've seen on her in long time.

I'm a terribe dancer. I'll learn. Doesn't matter.

W acted puzzled I got corsage. But she enjoyed when other women asked about it.

W still sleeping in spare bedroom. She did cuddle for a few minutes. Then left for other bed. I'm thinking maybe I'll just follow her to whichever bed she goes to. I'll do it in a nice way.

Began discussion with W about signing up at WMCA for sessions with a personal trainer to work with the two of us together. She was receptive to the idea, but may want to wait until after our dance class (puts us into January).

We would schedule 1 session/week with the trainer and plan one trip/week to the Y to work out together on our own.

I'm thinking it is harder to come up with 15 hours of activities every week if every week requires a unique schedule. Getting a few hours of activities on a regular weekly schedule could make that easier.

We eat nearly all our evening meals together, but typically in the living room with the TV on. Our dining table is covered in random clutter W has put there and I can't do much about it because it is nearly all her work stuff. I thought about putting it all in a box for her to sort, or not, at her convenience, but dismissed that idea as likely to come off as a DJ. W volunteered that she was going to clear the table two weeks ago but....

If the dining table was clear, I'd serve supper at the table and we'd have the opportunity for a half hour of UA time eating supper daily.

Idea: I'll put up a card table in the living room and put a recorded movie (Winged Migration) that has only music and nature photography on the TV to serve as "decor". I'll serve supper that way. If I put the table away when I clean up, it won't gather clutter.

Hmmm... On Friday I'll mention that I want to serve a nice Sunday supper on the dining table. That seems respectful enough. The other plan is an awful lot of energy to avoid complaining about the dining table. I need to overcome a lot of self-imposed anxiety that is keeping me from communicating much of anything.

Possible POJA discussion:

you: What would you think of my clearing off part of the dining room table so we can eat some dinners at the table?

her:??(this is imagining, she might say something unexpected) I really like the way we're doing it now (eating in front of TV)

you: I would enjoy eating some meals in the dining room, how would you feel about trying that a few times?

etc, etc. No love busters, no "you never pay attention to me", no "you have the table so cluttered".

Just one option (what we do at our house), as we do both, dining room table and eating in front of TV -- whoever makes the meal decides location. Might not work for you guys, that is our POJA.

We've talked about POJA. W agrees in principle.

But It seems hard to get it going in practice. I'll suggest an idea I think she may like or a few ideas. The discussion just seems to fade away. W doesn't suggest alternatives, doesn't really respond to my suggestions. I'm never quite sure what happened when the negotiation peters out.

Hello. First time poster. I have been stealth for many months on this site. Thanks to everyone for the great posts.

My wife and I have been friends / house mates for years. We have three kids (16, 13,10) and we are very busy with all their activities plus careers.

After following your situation, I felt the need to respnd. My wife and I have had challenges for many years now as we forgot about us. She has the opinion that kids first and us last or towards the bottom.