An example of my H and his "non-talkative" self:

Last night we had DVR'd some shows to watch. I asked if he wanted to watch a certain one and he replied he did not - that the subject matter was not good for him. (I forgot his exact words.)

What was the subject matter: the dude in the main story line got got cheating.

OK, so... it's been tough for us previously watching something when adultery becomes a main topic. I know he's uncomfortable, he is thinking it's just reminding me about the affair... but, do you think he wants to discuss this and get it out there? No, of course not: to him, it's best to just leave it alone.

I guess I can understand it: reminders are lovebusters. However, I can't help but feel we, as a couple, are giving our power away when we just cringe and avoid. No, I don't think it should become a 3 hour conversation, but why can't it be addressed?

I don't know - maybe he's right. Maybe certain things are just better to avoid rather than thinking talking solves everything.

Verdict's still out, from my perspective.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=32&subsublink=302

Read and reflect, ladies.


And... on the whole subject of media with depictions or allusions to infidelity;

NGB recorded a bunch of movies off of the Hallmark channel, since they are rolling out Christmas movies.

I got excited when I saw they did a movie version of Gift of the Magi.

After watching this "modernized" film adaptation, all I can say is, Hallmark can shove it.

The original story is such a beautiful depiction of love and giving... the movie version corrupted that with deceit.

I'll leave you to read the original story (if you haven't already), but I'll summarize the movie adaptation.

Rather than a pocket watch, Jim has a car. Rather than her hair, Della has a camera.

One of Della's strategies to get Jim his gift, is to get a second job... and LIE about it.

So, Jim puts 2+2 along with seeing her enter a Hotel (her second job) with another man (her boss).

When he calls her out for cheating, she goes nuts and leaves him, and her little harpy friends at work talk about what a horrible man he is for accusing her.

She blasts him for spending all his time working on the car (which he is fixing to sell to get her gift).


All in all, the movie isn't "Gift of the Magi," it's "How to Wreck a Marriage in One Holiday."

Not. Pleased.

Anyway, read, reflect, review the conversation article, it's imperative reading to get the need for conversation met for both spouses.

Ahhh...GREAT reminder, HHH!

I keep thinking of it in terms of him "not opening up" when I NEED to be thinking of it as my job to investigate and provide the right atmosphere for him.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this!

Of course, devil's advocate in me says, "What - another job for ME??? What about him!!!"
LOL.
Sorry


I totally agree with you on the Gift of Magi: that's TERRIBLE! Keep the current cr@p - give me the old-fashioned values!

I hate that we have to deal so much with infidelity in tv and movies. I know it's part of life - but it's difficult when you've been there.

I can say this much: No longer do I "accept" it when someone is cheated on but "they were a bad person anyway" kind of mentality. Makes me ill.

Sunny:

But don't forget: FWH also has to use the tools of good conversation toward you: investigate.

I find that my FWH does ask me how my day was or how I'm feeling, but not much beyond there.

I'm not sure if it's simply because, once asked, I fill up the void with detail and he doesn't need to ask a follow up question; or he's just not that interested in the topic/answer/issue.

Hmmmmm. Will see how much back-and-forth occurs in our next good conversation.

Cheers,
SP

Exactly, conversation is a two way street.

However, using RH, using PoJA, using the Friends of Good conversation - we are responsible to let our spouses know how we like our need met, and we are responsible to meet our spouse's need to the best of our ability (so long as we enjoy doing so as well).


Everything always boils back down to RH and PoJA.

SP and Sunny......again I see our H's are siblings separated at birth!!

I think maybe there is something to be said, an acknowledgement, but mostly I enjoy the wordless stuff I get. He gives an extra squeeze in a cuddle, a smile over the table, a touch as he passes. While I would like more 'conversation' he finds it hard, painful and really why push it??

Thats how I feel today, tomorrow, may be different and back to grumbling, but my 2p worth

Tanam - maybe they ARE separated at birth! Mine is GREAT with affection - not with words though. Or...maybe they're just male. LOL

HHH - you're right, it is a two way street. It's just that I seem to be more willing to drive that road than H. I can't blame him - it's somewhat a gender thing, somewhat a personality thing. Doesn't mean he gets let off the hook though. lol

SweetPea, I laughed when I read your post. Usually all it takes is one simple question and I tell EVERYTHING. lol Well, not always - not if I'm cranky or feeling sad. It's actually quite a barometer of how I'm feeling at the moment. "Is she talking?.. No. UH OH" LOL

Wanted to pop in for a bit since it seems like forever since I've done so. I have been so extremely swamped with school work as well as domestic duties that I simply haven't had time to be involved.

I'm trying hard to keep balance between school and home but lately it has not been easy. I've had nights of being up til 4am getting projects done and days on end of nothing but classwork. It's this darn honors program! I'm hoping it is worth it!

Anyway, the positive is that my mind's too busy to trigger. The negative is, I feel I am not doing a great job making my marriage a priority and that's not acceptable. Oh - it hasn't been consistently that way, but too much so, overall. Thanksgiving was great! This week - not much balance.

H is doing well - has been reading His Needs, Her Needs still. Can't say I've seen a lot of actions initiated by reading it, but I take responsibility for that as well. I need to make initiatives myself. (He says I did a lot over Thanksgiving week though.)

H is proud of my school efforts and I know it is something that causes respect as well as pride in him for me. Not to mention - when I'm done it will help us financially, so he is definitely for it! I just am a bit overwhelmed with everything being "work" and not enough "play" but I guess that's life sometimes.

The good part is, we're talking more lately and it is getting more comfortable, expressing our thoughts, feelings, and needs. We aren't completely there yet in terms of ease, but progress is progress. Sometimes I think progress is going too slow...but it's better than regression, right?!

Back to my history paper..... Hope everyone is doing well!!!

Do you schedule UA time in your diaries, Sunny, as Dr H recommends? (Forgive me for not having read the whole thread. You've probably answered that before.)

SC, we didn't have to schedule UA time before these past few weeks. We spent every evening together except for Wednesdays (when I'm in class) and Tuesdays nights we had family nights with the boys. We also spent all weekends together, for the most part, except for a few hours here or there. I've always tried to do my classwork while he is at work. BUT...the last few weeks I have spent a great deal more time on school stuff in the evenings and on weekends. So, we should have scheduled our UA time to ensure we got in the right amount of hours but we just didn't. Now, because H was off work for a few days during Thanksgiving week, we got plenty of time in together. Although, our daughter was home that weekend so time was spent with her as well. This past week, we did have date night but I doubt we got in a good, quality 15 hours together.

SO...all that to say....guilty of not making it the #1 priority.

I will say this: the other night when I had to stay up most the night on a presentation, H stayed right up with me, and helped me where he could. I'm not sure that would count as "recreational time" lol but he DID meet my needs of helping me when I needed an extra pair of ears, eyes, and brains.

The week before I made a cheesecake for his office luncheon - maybe that helped offset some need-meeting. ???

Hi, Sunny:

Juggling it all again, aren't you!? I know exactly how you feel when you're getting squeezed and the pressure is on.

We have been falling back on watching TV together and not really talking. So, I, too, need to get motivated to conduct proper UA time. Though we had a fantastic weekend together -- alone -- including shooting footage for a work video of little "angels" in a local "Nutcracker" ballet show. Totally sweet, and we both love the challenge of shooting. Very fun!

So, yes, you feel it when you're not getting 15 hours a week in. Scheduling it sounds good. I also know that admiration is in his top needs, so I make sure to text him and call during the day. Not only does it feel good to him, but it makes ME feel good to be meeting a need of his. And I make sure to make it about HIM, not groceries or chores or whatever. Just how his morning or afternoon is going, and a little flirting goes a LONG WAY with him, too.

Cheers to you Sunny!

Hugs,
SP

Thanks, SP! Good to see you resurface again too!

I try to remember to text/email H when he's at work too.... and to watch that my stress level doesn't show up when he calls. I've learned that one of his LB's is when I answer the phone in a grouchy manner, even if I don't mean to.

I bet shooting the little ones was a ton of fun! So sweet and precious - especially in The Nutcracker!!!

We're going to go out tonight, so I'm glad about that. Last year at this time we spent a lot of UA time driving around looking at Christmas lights. It was wonderful! I'd make some hot chocolate, grab a blanket if it was cold (cuz you gotta have the windows down) and we'd go to the neighborhoods better known for decorations with Christmas music on the radio. You can't beat it: it's sentimal, takes your focus off everything else, and you talk and dream a bit together. Definitely tops on the list. In fact, after the movie tonight I bet we'll go!

Love the idea of driving and looking at Christmas lights. We can even bring the dog ... or a kid (if they'd tolerate it!).

We are having a quiet and unexpected kid-free night tonight, so we have pledged to launch fully into HNHN reading/discussing. And the hubby actually seems interested to do it.

He read my thread a few weeks back and was somewhat shocked/dismayed at my wailings on here. Said it scared him that he'd not been meeting his end of some expectations (generally in the attention to me department). So, I thought a thorough reading w/workbook of HNHN was in order.

I'm just hoping I can inject a little bit of fun into the conversation, too. Maybe flirting with his top EN (sexual fulfillment!).

OK, gotta get off the forum and get some things done around here!

We went through the workbook last year but H had never read HNHN thoroughly. He seems to like it. I really feel Dr. Harley does a GREAT job of appealing to men in his relationship writings. I mean, I can't speak from a man's point of view, but out of all the marriage books I've read it does seem to me that Harley's approach truly shows both genders that they can have a relationship that is OUTSTANDING for both parties. Too many writers have catered towards men needing to be "understanding" and whatnot and not given equal voice to what men need to be happy.

Just my thoughts - but that's why I think my H has been open to MB - and why it is so successful when properly implemented.

Sunny:

Just thought I'd check in. (We have internet service back at home after nearly a month without. YEAH!).

So, where are FWH and I? We only bought one copy of HNHN along with the workbook; so I read the first two chapters of the book, and have left the book on FWH's nightstand. It's been there for a week. We'll see if/when he picks it up.

I think he is conflicted about doing this reading/MB work: He wants us to move forward and thinks the book will help. However, I think he fears he'll end up dredging up a lot of affair talk in the process, which will make us both feel bad. I know that's not going to be the case, as this book deals with how to meet each other's needs. ... But ... I would like to see some action/reading. Hmmmm.

I will let you know if he does start reading. How long do you think I should "wait" to remind him that the ball is in his court (to read the first two chapters and then discuss with me)? Have to admit that this had made me a smidge annoyed. Not super annoyed, but a smidge.

On the GOOD side, we had a GREAT weekend. We went to the football game in Green Bay for the day on Sunday, and that put my FWH in seventh heaven. We had UA time in the car together (nearly three hours each way), shared fun at the game and time talking at dinner (at an excellent German restaurant, which I loved).

I only had two small triggers at the game: a friend offered us each a beer. One was called "Two Girls" and FWH picked that one and made some sort of joke that that was the "right" one for him. Turned my stomach. I can't even tell you what he MEANT by saying that?!?!? It's the kind of joke he would have made BEFORE the affair (you know juvenile-sex jokes) with no intent of truth behind it. But now ... I couldn't BELIEVE those words came out of his mouth. Secondly, I had a very minor jolt of anxiety when, at half time, I switched seats with a friend's husband so that I could chat my friend during the second half (I only get to see her during these games; she lives far away). During FWH's affair, we switched seats at a game so we girls could catch up. FWH spent that time texting skankho. (FWH was supposed to take DS13 to game, not me and thought she was clear to make contact). Plus, because of the texts that were on his phone, after the game FWH wouldn't let me use his phone and it led to a huge fight, because he was just being so weird and awful. Downright rude and prissy, to be frank. Boy! If only I'd known!!!!!!

OK, whew! That was a lot of venting for what really was a good day. Anyway, on the drive home, I brought up the "Two Girls" beer incident, and FWH said he realized as he was saying his little joke that it was the wrong thing to say, but he wasn't quick enough on his feet to stop himself or think of something else.

I told him that, of course, he's more than free to continue to make comments like that (as if he's never had an affair, or in his case three in his lifetime), but he should know full well that they throw me into "affair" tailspin.

He got it, of course. And even said what a HUGE love buster that had to have been. So ... that is good, right.

And to pat myself on the back a bit, I didn't let either triggers throw me into a bad mood nor did I bring them out during our recreation time together. We really had a GREAT time, and FWH said he was happy that I was able to do that despite the love bust. (I didn't tell him about the trigger of switching seats because I WANTED to switch seats and catch up with my girlfriend; I guess I'll have to think more about whether I should really do that in the future. But I do think I was able to get over the anxiety of it pretty easily ... )

What's up with you Sunny? Are you making a strategic plan to get through the holidays and with school and with kids and with marriage recovery?

LOL! I made FOUR "to do" lists over the weekend: personal; home project needs; Christmas; and a business launch plan (video biz). Everything but the home projects list needs to be done by Christmas or Jan. 1. All I can say is: YIKES! and that God likes to laugh when we make plans.

Hugs,
SP.

HA HA...I like that last line, SweetPea: it's true, God really does laugh when we make plans! I am great at making plans. The problem is sticking with them. I'm learning that it's better to just "do" than to "plan" for me. I spend too much time making the plan, lol.

I have finals in the next few days - then my birthday is on Saturday - then get to relax for a bit! Well, I say that. I've done NO shopping and haven't even finished Christmas decorations. We usually have the best house on the block!

As far as the book goes, I can understand why you are frustrated your H hasn't been more progressive on reading it. I get the same when I feel I have to do the leading and push H to do things. It makes me feel I am more vested in recovery than he is. It may not be true, but that's what I feel like. I think you should say something to him. It doesn't have to be dramatic, but just a quick text stating you'd really like him to get that done soon so you can compare notes. First of all, if you don't make it a priority it will drag on forever....I know, BTDT. Second, when you wait too long after reading, you forget stuff. You need to discuss it while it's fresh. (Sidenote: I think that's why couples on here do so well after years of recovery in terms of keeping their marriage a priority: they keep reading, keep listening, keep being reminded that it's important to keep on keepin on and it always stays fresh!)

I guess the part where affair talk could come in is where one of you thinks in terms of, "Oh..THIS need wasn't being met, that's why it happened..." but really, Lovebusters was much more of a trigger to me than HNHN in that regard. I wonder to some degree if it doesn't bring up other issues. It can make a person very vulnerable to have to admit to certain needs. Hmmm.... I just thought of that actually. Men don't like to appear vulnerable!
I mean, it's a win-win for both parties, but it doesn't mean it is easy. The concept is easy but in practice, it can be difficult in day-to-day life. We get tired and so many demands pull at us, ya know? But, being able to focus on the most important needs, as Harley says, brings about great satisfaction.

As for your weekend triggers - boy do I know the feeling! I'm glad you shared with him about the comment. I can tell you, it would've thrown me for a loop too! It just goes to show you how much your H has moved on, actually. I find it the same way: my H has moved on in a lot of ways that I haven't been able to yet. Of course, it's because they didn't endure the hurt that we did. Yet, it's good that they have moved on... it just feels unfair! We'd rather have them "moved on" than still pining for the OW!!!

As for the seat changing, it may be one of those things that because you endured it this time that next time it won't be so bad, ya know? I've been through several experiences that I triggered big time but it was worth it: not things I wanted to avoid doing just because it would incur triggers. I mean, you have to reclaim a bit of life at times - make it your own again.

AND...how bout them Packers?! Wow! I really think they could do it: go unbeaten and win the Super Bowl again! Of course, my boy Tebow is making it easier on ya'll. So much of the media spotlight is put on him right now that it's taking the pressure off Green Bay! lol

Anyway, I think it is a GREAT thing that your H recognized what a LB it was - the comment that he made. I'm sure you felt better with the apology instead of him trying to justify it. That shows a great attitude on his part - and his commitment to making things right.

Brings me to my weekend fight with my hubby....lol. I'll start another reply on that. THis is getting long!

Sunny:

Excellent points. I agree on the issue of men, at least on the surface, not wanting to seem vulnerable.

And you make another excellent point on the issue of how far FWH has come in terms of not even "thinking" about the impact of "Two Girls" joke. But ... I also think that could lead to disaster. Sure, I don't want him to be mired in guilt over his A, but he needs to understand that jokes like those not only lovebust but are "old thinking" ways. Party animal. Jokey. Fun-at-all costs. Open and ready for anything. Some men -- without boundary issues -- can joke like that. But my husband should have a knee-jerk reaction to those kinds of thoughts after all we've gone through.

Tells me there is work to be done, to as you so rightly point out, maintain and cherish!

Do spill about fight. We will fully digest it and slay its causes and repercussions!

Hugs,
SP

So - H and I got into a fight on Saturday, as I mentioned in my post above. It started out over something seemingly stupid. (Don't they all?) It went a little something like this:

We had a friend in from out of town. We live about an hour away from the city, and our friend had to go to the convention center for a couple of hours. We said we'd take him and pick him back up, so he didn't have to rent a car. Well, he was working for about 3 hours so H and I figured we'd do something together while friend was working.

After we dropped friend off, we went to check out the big movie theater not to far away. There was nothing on at a good time that either of us wanted to see. We decided maybe to go to the big mall. Well, traffic getting into the area was insane. Neither of us wanted to fight the car traffic or the mall traffic if it was that bad. So, we opted out of that as well. There was a car H was interested in looking at for sale, so we went and looked at that. That killed some time. Then we stopped at a gas station. That's where things went wrong, believe it or not!

Both H and I were hungry but we didn't want to eat a big meal because we were going out to dinner with friend (and our sons) later, when friend was off. H mentioned grabbing McDonalds - right at the gas station. I said that would be a bad plan, with all the time we had to kill. Then we discussed not wanting to eat anything big either. Then, S17 called, and I was talking with him as H got out of the car to get gas. It took him a long time. Why? Because he grabbed some cheeseburgers from McDonalds while I was on the phone after getting gas. I was aggravated. Had we not discussed NOT getting McDonalds?

I made a comment about how I thought we weren't getting McDs. H said he was starving so he got a couple burgers. I felt he had been inconsiderate, and was behaving independently. He felt he was just hungry. Well...I was hungry too! I thought we would go somewhere, have a drink or two and maybe get appetizers. We had TONS of time to kill still! He said we could still do that. I thought, "Why would we do that when you just ate 2 cheeseburgers?!" AND...because I was aggravated, and my feelings were hurt, I was negative, saying I didn't want to go do that now, after he'd just eaten without me. (My feelings were hurt because of the IB part of things. It felt very non-caring.)

OK...so...this went round and round for a bit, then he raised his voice and yelled at me. Well, I started to cry. Then, he commented that I wasn't allowed to cry. That made me cry more...and made me mad. You can see where this is going: nowhere good.

He finally told me that it made him crazy when I am negative and shoot down every solution he comes up with - and he was sorry for yelling. I could understand that. I apologized for being negative and that I should have just spelled out what I was feeling from the get-go. So, in a way, I was being unreasonable. Yet, I didn't like that he is so geared to finding my faults that he does not look at himself and his own faults. It wasn't like he behaved appropriately in the whole matter.

So...it was all very stupid and very high school-ish. Yet, it is rare that this kind of thing happens. Thinking on it now, I believe I know why I was so triggered so easily. Our friend who is in town treats his wife like she is a princess. He puts her on a pedestal - and I would LOVE to be treated that way. She wasn't even with him this trip but even the way he talks to her on the phone makes me envious. I would love to feel cherished like that... It made IB cheeseburgers seem like a slap in the face when I know they weren't meant to be. Friend would never go get cheeseburgers, knowing his wife was hungry too and that they had discussed plans to eat...

I know my H has a different type of personality than friend does. I would never be attracted to someone like friend, more than likely... My H has a different way of talking - of showing care - of being romantic... yet, instead of accepting that, I want it how I want it, when I want it, the way I want it. While I don't think that's a bad thing, it is a thing.

I struggle: am I being too demanding, or is H just not "getting" what I want? Then worse thoughts come to mind, "Maybe he purposefully doesn't give me want I want, the way I want it." OR...even worse....maybe I am not 'good enough' to have what I think I deserve, at least in his eyes. I don't inspire him to "cherish" me, perhaps. Thus, my feelings vacillate between self doubt, anger, sadness, and self-pity.

Obviously we still have a lot of work to do in the "meeting needs" department.

The argument ended well in terms of having a good discussion. I told him he can't tell me I am "not allowed" to cry and he should care more about my feelings than being right at that moment. I agreed I need to be more reasonable and open-minded instead of so emotionally charged. We made up while we waited for friend. BUT....we sure wasted a couple of hours on nothing!

Some of it came down to bad communication. H thought our discussion over things was over. I didn't. (It was interrupted by S17's phone call.) It also didn't help that H did not tell me at the beginning that he got me a cheeseburger too, if I wanted it, in case I was hungry. He only mentioned getting burgers for himself.

I honestly don't know why I was so attitudnal about not wanting to go to a restaurant (for drinks/appetizers) after he'd just gotten the burgers. He said we could still do that. I feel funny about eating alone with someone else "watching" for one thing. I don't know why. For another, it was just the thought of us being not in sync.... of not working together... no POJA going on... it just felt wrong.

Yes, you are right: the mindset has to change, PERMANENTLY, even with joking. And I'm sure you want to feel he values his marriage way too much (after almost losing it) than to even think in jokey terms that way. You want to know he is protecting your marriage. Old habits die hard with old friends. It was just the way he's used to being, I'm sure, in that environment. I believe the next time he'll think better of it.

At least that's a trigger he can do something about. Not much he could do about the seat change thing, really. Well, unless handing you his phone while you're in the other seat would help... or at least periodically making a point to make contact with you during that time. He could text YOU!

I am really frustrated. After posting about the argument and sitting here thinking of ways I need to improve things, I happened on some LB worksheets that H recently filled out. He hasn't bothered to discuss them with me. They've had to have been there awhile, after looking at them.

Does it bother me that he finds things wrong with me? Not exactly. It's the fact that A: he has expressed none of this to me and B: that he (apparent in his writing) looks at everything as MY fault. If he is dishonest it's because of me; if he has an AO, it's because of me. He even wrote that "he only increases his volume level so I will understand he is right and I am wrong."

I'm upset. I don't mind changing things I need to change, but I don't know how on earth to deal with that attitude. The man truly thinks he is always right, regardless.

Heck, I bet he still thinks he had just cause to have an affair.....

Not a good afternoon.