Visualize all you want.

I have never read once (much less "often" as you stated) that non-forgiveness is a WORSE OFFENSE comparative to screwing OW/OM.

I'm starting a new thread. Over in other Topics.

Could it be that the BS is vilified, as you put it, not for the inability to forgive per se, but for the persistence to use the past as an excuse to keep hammering the FWS, choosing not to leave and yet not to start healing either?

If the BS cannot or will not forgive their spouse, then for heaven's sake, get a divorce.

I agree. Let's take it outside to the parking lot. Though I have meetings to go to right now. Be there later.

Let's take it outside to the parking lot.

(Waving hand wildly...) Oooh, oooh, can I be the referee?



(Hey, Mel: How's my hair?)

I'll offer a correction Dr. Harley has gone into this a few times on his show.

The basic idea is that a spouse who has had an affair is in a position to make restitution. We call this "just compensation". They can change their lives: Extraordinary Precautions can guarantee this never happens again, avoiding Love Busters can prevent the kinds of actions that lead to resentment, and meeting Emotional Needs will cause the couple to fall in love with one another again.

So when you're starting recovery, no, you do not forgive the offending spouse. However, forgiveness flows naturally once the two spouses are in love again, and typically two years later (if you're doing it right) the spouses are in love again and the offended spouse has forgiven the offending spouse.

So first comes Just Compensation from the offending spouse. Then comes Reconciliation. Then Forgiveness. In pretty much that order.

We're talking in a bit vague terms, though, and I fear if we dive too deep we end up agreeing too enthusiastically to realize we're not disagreeing.

well, I appreciate a good debate as much as the next poster...

I totally agree that I - or any other WS - does not deserve a second chance. We broke something that we promised to uphold. The choice to give a WS a second chance is only through the grace of the BS. It's not something we can really earn, b/c truly, can any amount of just compensation make up for what we did? That decision rests solely with the one we betrayed.

broken never has to forgive me. No one - here or IRL - has the right to vilify him for unforgiveness, and I think most folks on MB adhere to the belief that a BS always has that "get out of jail free" card. When you think about it, broken is also the one who decides whether or not I have earned my "F".

H3ll, if someone murdered one of my daughters, would I truly be able to forgive the murderer? No, most likely not.

You can't quantify someone else's loss. It's like the insurance company, who tries to put a monetary value on the loss of a hand...but doesn't the loss of a hand mean different things to an artist? a brain surgeon? a speed skater?

I want broken to be happy. If I could have my way, I want to be the one who makes him happy. But I don't think I will ever be that person again in his eyes. That's a consequence of what I did. broken didn't ask for any of this to happen. He did the best he could, and he saw that his best efforts were repaid with trickle truth.

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter what I want. It's broken's decision to stay in this M or to leave.

I sometimes think neither of us knows what to do. I think on some level, neither of us wants to be without the other. But he can't get past what I did...or doesn't know how to get past it, and doesn't know if he wants to get past it.

I've tried...I tried to do everything I knew to do, but it's like trying to put that toothpaste back in the tube.

I know I don't deserve a second chance, but I'll always hope for one. I feel like everybody in my life thinks I am a complete and utter idiot who should just give up and move on already. To be honest, it's why I don't post updates about my sitch. Not that y'all think I am an idiot (maybe y'all did when I landed here initially! heck, maybe y'all do now but are too polite to tell me ), but I can totally understand that at some point, there really isn't any more advice that anyone can give me other than to hang in there and Plan A. It's also why I avoid talking about my life with my friends. I don't want to move on. Yes, it may very well be hopeless, but I am not ready to let go just yet.

And I am not even getting into the whole other side of my emotional mess, because I am not dealing well with losing my dad, and it kind of affects everything else these days. It's made it a lot harder to be positive about anything. But like everything else, you have to take things one day - one minute, some days - at a time.

Then you disagree with the oft posted statement found on MB "the get out of jail free card"?

WPG - Stick with us Plan B's who are holding out hope and as time continues it gets less and less hopeful.

There are days now when I also want to throw in the towel. I am starting to actually dream of a husband so different than my WH. The longer I am away from my WH the more I am finding out who I am and how my marriage really looked.

I had rose colored glasses on for so long.

I decided I will give this perseverance and hope for two years. I have eleven months left. The divorce is likely going through in February/March. I may throw in the towel then also. I am not quite sure.

I have no hope today, yet something inside of me says "just keep praying, just keep praying."

I guess when that little voice goes silent then I will know it is time to move on with my life.

Perseverance is a tough battle because you have to battle yourself. No one is there telling you "Enough is Enough" You are the only one who can make that decision.

I find it interesting because when someone is weak, they will use the resources of others to make their decisions. This is really bad when "Bad Company corrupts good character." One who is weak, and relys on that bad company to make their decisions is really only making the cesspool so much more toxic.

There is one thing certain ... you and only you can make the choices for yourself. You and only you has to come to this decision completely unbiased by all those surrounding you. This is the gift of free will. When someone influences your choice often the choice gets muddied.

Perseverance is the battle within ourselves to make sure we are making the choices based on free will. It is crucial to master, yet very difficult to accomplish.

As one who is trying to persevere through the worst of times in my life ... I can tell you the longer I persevere the more confident I become in my ability to make decisions based on my free will.

The longer I persevere the more I find friends/family jumping ship ... I look at this as close to the end. Soon no one will be left and then I am 100% free to make the decisions that are best for my children and I.

Betrayed spouses never got the choice when a WS is out having an A. Now you want them to choose to leave or start healing. Being the BH I can say I have not forgave my WW yet, and may never forgive her, however that is up to me. It is my choice just like it was hers to go outside of the marriage to meet her EN/PN.
WS need self forgiveness first and if the BS chooses to forgive would be a bonus.

Very interesting post,

See I understand the two year marker and agree that it is an important one, as also I agree on your outlook ITL.

Many people would probably agree with the fact that the first two years when I left WW becuase of her drinking were full of denial in MY life, when I tried to "fix" my heart with another woman, and even though my WW had major issues, two wrongs don't make a right. At the end of the two years, what I came back to was a "patched up" version of the first marrige where the addiction issues had just went underground. Dr H is right in his advice there too, that untill the addiction issue is solved, no recovery can really be accomplished.


But the highlighted refers to my own viewpoint and rose colored glasses I still have for my wife, and the 25 years spent struggling and being in love with her. My 20 year old Son told me,"Yes Dad you loved Mom, and you will never have the same love again for someone, but a new love will be different and it still can happen if you want it to, and when you are ready"

But what does love look like now? After 20 more years chasing an impossible task, trying to fill the fantasys of someone who was both a challange,(to much so), and my own fantasy also it is a sad fact, and comforting also, that I still am in love with her. You will be surprised what you can get used to.

So here I am committed to what I knew was right to begin with, and with the scope of truth about addiction, that I could not save her from, because she didn't want to give it up. Yeah so much can be said about false recovery I find it nessesary to help those here, to walk the straight and narrow.

The straight and narrow is good enough, and in time we all will understand life differently whether we "fix" our current relationships or not, and it will be good, if we will just let it.

God Bless and trust in the plan

I don't have but a sec but wanted to comment here. VMM, you are exactly right that it is your choice to forgive or not to forgive your WW. What I focused on was your last sentence.

Self-forgiveness has come up several times on this thread, in fact Tom just mentioned it in his post to me, and I kind of take GloveOil's stance - I'm taking self-forgiveness off the table for me. I think the best I can come to is a sort of acceptance that it happened and there is nothing I can do to change it.

Why? Well, it goes along with what I said last night about how if someone murdered one of my DDs, could I forgive them? No, I don't believe I could. In this scenario, I am the murderer. I destroyed at least one marriage, at least one family - my own. Not only did I hurt H, I hurt my daughters. I am not done facing the consequences for my adultery, most of which will also affect my family.

What I am working on, admittedly, is the distinction between shame and guilt/remorse. Shame being feeling bad about who you are, remorse being feeling bad about what you did. For a long time since the full extent of my infidelity was revealed, I have felt ashamed of who I am. Maybe that is why when broken tells me that I'm "not worth it," it hurts so much, b/c he's confirming these beliefs I have about myself. Now, I know what my faith says about my worth, but I'll be honest and say my faith is pretty much at an all-time low right now. Everybody tells me I need to go to church and practice my faith, but my heart is not in it anymore. I also realize that it is a symptom, or a manifestation, of grief and depression.

tough, yeah, I'm still holding out hope. I'm not a Plan B'er, of course, but I am still trying to Plan A, I guess the length of time and the other events that have occurred have all kind of conspired to wear me down. I suppose there are things that have happened that could be considered hopeful, but I don't trust in them anymore, as there are just as many things that have happened that are not hopeful signs.

Two years...well, it's been two years and 3 months since my A ended, made up of by 4 months of trickle-truth, probably 6-8 months of messed-up efforts at recovery, then maybe 6 months of finding MB and learning everything that I *should* have been doing, finally posting and getting straightened out, and now 10 months of separation.

Anyhoo I did too much thinking today. I didn't need to spend 4 hours in the car by myself listening to what goes on in my head.

I struggle with this daily. My husband is still very wayward, and there are no signs of holes in the fog either. Actually it seems since she dumped him (still not sure) he has really gotten worse. My WH has drastically declined in the past three months. I see no hope out of him. I am in Plan B, and hoping he is missing his EN's.

I see him running 90 mph in the wrong direction. My mind continuously plays all the success stories here on the board. I read them and know that each one is a miracle in itself. I think will that be me? I know I am holding on for a miracle. If my marriage is to be saved (and I can forget this resentment) - will be the most miraculous thing that will happen in my life.

I don't know what to do today. I have hope, and then my hope completely fades. I incessantly pray, and then I get frustrated because my prayers aren't being heard. I have a dream and then I wonder was my dream from GOD? Was my dream something real?

As I type this I still get this little voice inside me that is saying to me, "Don't give up!" It is hard right now. It is my "For Worse" at the moment. What is "For Worse"? Is it really "For Worse", or is it "When it really gets hard and hopeless give up?"

As I finish typing this something in me tells me not to give up hope. I don't know what it is or where it comes from. I work really hard to make sure it isn't denial. I ask GOD all the time to let me know when it is time for me to give up. The resentment for this man is growing. He has abandoned us completely. He barely sees all his kids, he is trying to take us down financially, and he is still sleeping with the POSOW. Believe me my resentment towards my WH is growing.

This perseverance stuff makes my head spin. I hope with time I will understand why I am feeling the need to keep hope alive for my Wayturd who is completely out of his effing mind today.

I know we're on opposite sides of the fence here, but I could have written that myself. Although lately I don't pray as often as I did, or as often as I should, and my prayers now are pretty much just, "Lord, I need a miracle." I'm tired of praying for patience and strength, because I am tired of being patient and strong. After Dad's death, I feel like I am having to take care of everybody. I resent it, but then feel guilty for resenting it...after all, my parents took excellent care of me, and I'm an adult, I shouldn't need anybody to take care of me...but oh how I want someone to just hold me and tell me everything is going to be alright. To believe in me and give me the courage to do anything.

And it's wierd too that you mention dreams, because the other night I had a dream that my mother sent me this package in the mail. In the package was a church bulletin, and on the bulletin the title of the sermon was "Don't Give Up!" That phrase appeared several times on the paper, and someone had underlined it or circled it each time it appeared to make it stand out. So yeah, is that a message from God, or just the wishful thinking of my subconscious?

All I know is that you, along with so many other BS's on this board who are in a long, drawn-out Plan B, impress the socks off of me.

Whatever side we are on in the h3ll caused by infidelity, I have to believe that we are all learning and growing, and somehow we'll come through the fire and emerge on the other side. I know I won't be the same woman I was two+ years ago...heck, I am already different now...some things are good, others, well, I don't know whether it was my sin or if it is the loss of my father that makes me feel as if a light somewhere inside of me has gone out...maybe it's a combination of things.

For the last month, my posts on this thread have been more in the hopes that H would read them, b/c I feel safe putting things here, in writing, in a way that I don't feel safe to express verbally. I think he was reading here again for a while, but I think he's stopped. We're together more now, meaning he's here every night, and brought a lot of his clothes back, but not all his stuff, but what does it mean? Is he back to stay, or will he leave again? Yeah, sure, the simple thing to do would be just to ask him, but I am afraid to hear that it's only temporary, that nothing has changed. He's here and yet not here.

And me, I'm invisible, I'm numb, I'm afraid. My best girlfriends are getting together tomorrow for dinner, and I just don't feel up to going and pretending that everything is alright when it's not. I did tell H that tonight. I then said "I would rather stay with you."

Last night I was out of town for work - I'd asked H to go but he didn't want to go with me - so I ended up going out to dinner alone, which actually was kind of nice, then one of my coworkers and his wife showed up while I'm sitting there with my book and mouth full of food. I sat with them a while and then left with the excuse the kids were going to call soon, b/c I really just wanted to be alone. I got all turned around when I left the restaurant and was actually lost for a while, wandering around in the cold and the rain and the dark in an unfamiliar downtown. Oddly enough, I wasn't scared, more PO'ed at myself for being in such a hurry to get away that I wasn't paying attention to my surroundings. When I finally got back to the hotel I was soaked. The thought crossed my mind that I wonder if H would care if something had happened to me, would he have worried if I hadn't talked to the girls, if I hadn't made it home today? That's another question I don't want to know the answer to. And really, it is just me throwing myself a grand old pity party, which is no fun at all.

eh...it's late...I've been so verbose the last few days I should have jumped on that NaNoWriMo that Scotty and KR are talking about!

I see there are possibly two points of personal recovery here.

First I strongly encourage you to continue down your path with no expectations. I am working on this incessantly. It was a huge downfall to my marriage. I expected something out of my WH that I should have provided for myself. The above quote screams at me to suggest, "This is where you up your prayer, drop your expectations, and have 100% trust in GOD."


The above quote also screams at me ... the resentment you are feeling is likely a pattern you have established in how you cope. Was this prevalent in your pre-A marriage?

The resentment you are feeling and living has to do with the focus on something from the past. Your thoughts are fixated on something you cannot change. The resentment can only be eliminated by turning the thoughts to present and future.

The goal is to let go of control. It is something you cannot change or fix. It will go away with a change in behavior.

It is likely a boundary needs to set. Something isn't protecting you, and the resentment makes you weak again.

Tough

Hang in there WPG. I feel weak and waiver sometimes too, but in reality it is when I'm alone when I'm the weakest. My DD and my WW are the only ones that can fill the empty void of loneliness. The path to heaven is narrow and difficult, but if it was easy, everyone would be going there. Your H has hung around a long time since the A. The longer he hangs around and you continue to meet his needs, the more he can't see himself without you and your family together. You can do this, God wants you to see this through, and most of all, your DD's need you to see this through and do everything you can to save your marriage!

I can feel myself getting angry and resentful. I'm tired, physically, mentally and emotionally. I'm withdrawing and I know it. And I simply don't know how to approach him. If he doesn't want to be married to me, then there's nothing I can say that is going to make a difference in how he treats me...so I guess I feel like, what's the point? After all, I am the one who broke our marriage vows. He has the "get out of jail free" card thanks to me. I still don't know why he came back. On top of him losing his job, I'd heard the stepmom was letting her house go into foreclosure...so did he come back b/c he had nowhere else to go? He pretty much does his own thing. He continues to help with the girls, throws in some DS here and there. Works out every day and went on a diet. Buys and does the things he wants with no interest in POJA. We sleep in the same bed and have SF when he initiates.

I guess over the last year I'd built up this whole fantasy in my head, about how he would come home and things would be better, that he'd recommit to the M and would work to meet my ENs like he did before for a few short months. That we'd rekindle the romance, and fall in love again.

As far as my pattern of coping, Tough, I was talking to my brother last night. He wanted me to help him order something online, and when he was thanking me, he made some comment about me having to take care of everybody now (since Dad died). I said, Well, I guess I was raised to take care of everybody. I was the overachiever, I tried to be perfect, and I always thought if I tried harder, if I was better, people would love me more. He laughed and said Now you're taking care of your family and they would love you unconditionally anyway. I said, Not everybody loves unconditionally.

So yes...it's a pattern with me, even pre-A. In fact, all the way back to when we were dating. I thought if I loved H enough, if I was good enough, he'd love me the way I needed to be loved. He'd take down the wall inside him and would open up to me. Unfortunately I expected him to read my mind, and "know" what I needed, and became resentful b/c he wasn't a mindreader. I tried to show love to him by giving him what I needed, b/c I had no idea what his needs were.

Only now I feel like we do have a better grasp on each others' needs. I know I'm failing at his need for O&H b/c I am not telling him my feelings anymore. I'm afraid to open up. He doesn't meet my top 3 needs of AD, AF, and C, and I don't know how to express that to him b/c I am afraid of what his response will be. And I feel guilty for wanting my needs met b/c I am the FWW, and he's repeatedly told me he wants a D, so why should I think my needs should or will be met?

I'm better about not having expectations in some ways but not others. I don't expect kindness or affection. But I expect the negative. I don't want to trigger his anger, b/c all the hurtful things he has said have been when he was angry. I just feel worn down, with very little fight left in me anymore.

I_P, I thought I was doing what God wanted me to do, trying to save my M. But I'm the one who broke it, and as time goes on, I'm not convinced it can be saved. I just don't know what else I can do.

Anyway, that whole "crippled version of the pre-A M"? Check.

WPG,
I know how you feel in everything you said. I started a blog if you'd like to read it.
Don't settle for less out of guilt.
xo
CT

**edit**

WPG,

I know we are on opposite sides of this whole situation, but I can hear your pain. Rejection sucks.

If this is referring to your husband I would venture to say that he does love you (unconditionally?), but he is really hurting from your A. I would say that I love my WW unconditionally, but most of the time getting over the A appears impossible and I know that living stuck between the 2 is tearing me apart. I also need to love myself, and if that means that I need to leave my wife to get away from the pain then that is something I must do (no matter how much I love my W). The fact that he is still there may speak that he is torn between his love for you and the seemingly impossible task of moving past the A.

As a BH something that stuck out to me was:
Your A was a major hit to his ego, and I know that when I have to initiate SF with my WW I struggle with the idea that she doesn't really want me, that she is doing it out of obligation or guilt. All of this very much gets in the way of this effectively meeting my need for SF. Can you initiate SF and make it clear that he is who you want, physically?

I know you want to save your marriage, and that is very admirable, however no one deserves abuse (even a WW). If this is how he is treating you and can't figure out anyway to move past it, you are probably better off apart.